Leave no trace game

[JustaTouron]

Jak,

It is called the middle ground.

There are some who say to avoid using electricity you should go to bed at sunset and get up at sunrise and not use lights....others of us switch to CF bulbs but continue to use lights....

There are some who use an auto to avoid petro....others of us just look for a car with good MPG......

LNT.org is not earth first.

[beakerman]

Trust me guys titanium pots/gear are not sustainable...Titanium production is a very messy business.

[JAK]

It is good to think about such things.
It is good to see that even LNT.org is finally thinking about such things.
We all have a long way to go. Anything short of sustainability isn't sustainable.

[JustaTouron]

Anything short of sustainability isn't sustainable.

Let me you in on a little secret, "the human race isn't sustainable." Some day the human race is going to be extinct. Its a fact. Has happened to virtually every species. It is gonna happen to us to. And guess what, we won't destroy the planet. Yes, plenty of other species are going to go extinct along the way to our extinction, but we won't wipe out all life on the planet. But at some point that will occur too, not because of us but because the sun will change to a red giant.

[JAK]

Well I think we are sustainable for at least another 100,000 years if we play our cards right.
That is sustainable enough for the girls I go out with.

[JAK]

There are lawyers here, and others, that try and make the case that the local natives here are not aboriginal, because they have only been here for 10,000 years or so. Well, I think considering they way we found the place 400 years ago, and what we've done with it since, I think we should accept that their 10,000 years was a pretty good example of sustainability. It is rather like Canada's claim in the North, as the Northwest Passage is opening up again. Some seem to think that we need to develop and populate and industrialize and militarize the North in order to make a justifiable claim to it.

Why isn't traditional occupation and under-development good enough?
Why do we have to be willing to destroy a place in order to claim it?

[JustaTouron]

Well I think we are sustainable for at least another 100,000 years if we play our cards right.
That is sustainable enough for the girls I go out with.

I think you are off by at least an order of magitude. We have an outside shot at 10,000 years. But I think it is probably closer to 1000 years than 10,000.

[Pedaling Fool]

I agree with JAK, LNT is a joke because it gets too extreme and stupid. I think this is because people try and out-do the "standard"; so many times it's been out-done that now it's just plain stupid.

However, when it comes to sustainability and reducing our impact; I believe the answer is in science and technology.

A perfect example is Global Warming. Let's, for the sake of argument, agree that the earth is DRASTICALLY warming and the seas will rise 20 feet by 2100. What are people (not govt) doing about it -- and when I say "people" I'm talking about the ones that believe in all the dire predictions. How many of them have made real changes, not superficial changes like buying a prius or those stupid bulbs... I don't see anymore people riding bikes, however, I do see a lot more "green" advocacy bumper stickers.

It's widely reported that Europe is light-years ahead of us, but this is not true. Just look at the problems they are having with living up to the Kyoto standards -- they are failing miserably. The Brits were fairly supportive of higher carbon taxes, yet when these taxes were actually considered in 2006 there was an outcry. So it's not just a problem here in the U.S.

People let the politicians play polictics with this issue and people foolishly fall for it and believe all the blame lies with big oil and the govt.

Everybody wants green technology, but without the slightest interuption in their standard of living. So well just have to wait until the tecnology becomes available. We could make this process a little faster if the oil companies started losing money. Not many people vote and even fewer vote with their wallet.

[Tuney]

This thread has gotten a long way from the Bury your Poop, pack out your trash, and don't bother your neighbors or the wildlife that I intended when I started it.

Sustainability is an important issue, but for the moment I'd just like to be able to enjoy the popular shelters and campsites on the trail as I pass thru on my hike.

[JAK]

"Whenever I consider the origin of this war and the necessities of our position, I have a sure confidence that this day, and this union of yours, will be the beginning of freedom to the whole of Britain. To all of us slavery is a thing unknown; there are no lands beyond us, and even the sea is not safe, menaced as we are by a Roman fleet. And thus in war and battle, in which the brave find glory, even the coward will find safety. Former contests, in which, with varying fortune, the Romans were resisted, still left in us a last hope of succour, inasmuch as being the most renowned nation of Britain, dwelling in the very heart of the country, and out of sight of the shores of the conquered, we could keep even our eyes unpolluted by the contagion of slavery. To us who dwell on the uttermost confines of the earth and of freedom, this remote sanctuary of Britain's glory has up to this time been a defence. Now, however, the furthest limits of Britain are thrown open, and the unknown always passes for the marvellous. But there are no tribes beyond us, nothing indeed but waves and rocks, and the yet more terrible Romans, from whose oppression escape is vainly sought by obedience and submission. Robbers of the world, having by their universal plunder exhausted the land, they rifle the deep. If the enemy be rich, they are rapacious; if he be poor, they lust for dominion; neither the east nor the west has been able to satisfy them. Alone among men they covet with equal eagerness poverty and riches. To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace."
- Calgacus, according to Tacitus

[JAK]

I'm not saying we will last another 100,000 years.
Just saying we should make an honest attempt.

[DrRichardCranium]

There are lawyers here, and others, that try and make the case that the local natives here are not aboriginal, because they have only been here for 10,000 years or so. Well, I think considering they way we found the place 400 years ago, and what we've done with it since, I think we should accept that their 10,000 years was a pretty good example of sustainability.

Not really, actually. The Native Americans were not nearly as politically/environmentally correct as many believe. There is a large amount of evidence that Native Americans were at times environmentally disastrous to the surrounding environment, to the point where their own cities collapsed.

[Skidsteer]

I'm not saying we will last another 100,000 years.
Just saying we should make an honest attempt.

Ok. I'm gonna have to get really serious about cardio.

[JAK]

"Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon our fathers for centuries untold. . . . The son of the White Chief says his father sends us greetings of friendship and good will. This is kind of him, for we know he has little need of our friendship in return because his people are many. They are like the grass that covers the vast prairies, while my people are few: they resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. . . . There was a time when our people covered the whole land as the waves of a wind-ruffled sea covers its shell-paved floor, but that time has long since passed away with the greatness of tribes almost forgotten. . . . When the last Red Man shall have perished, and the memory of my tribe shall have become a myth among the white man, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe, and when your childrens' children think themselves alone in the field, the store, the shop, or in the silence of the pathless woods, they will not be alone. . . . The White Men will never be alone. Let him be just and deal kindly with my people, for the dead are not powerless— Dead— I say? There is no death. Only a change of worlds."
- Chief Seattle, according to Tom, Dick, and Harry