how many is tooo many mail drops?

[superman]

My dad actually likes those. Two weeks ago he was reminiscing about powdered eggs, asking if maybe we could bring them on the next hike ...

I have awful memories of powdered eggs in Boy Scouts.

Jonathan

In "65" powdered eggs were green...they must have gotten better since then?

[Just a Hiker]

Hey there Mozzie. Of course the stuff in #10 cans and the bubble gum won't not do you much good on the trail; however, the rest you could use in your mail drops if thats your plan. Those dumplings sound interesting.

Just Jim

[katagious]

I'd take the stuff in the #10 cans and dehydrate them.

[Blissful]

I'd take the stuff in the #10 cans and dehydrate them.

Good idea. We dehydrated chicken from cans, no problem. Also beef - minced and dried in the oven to add to meals.

Agree though you can find oatmeal and pastas in bounce boxes. Mail drops are good for having meals made up that you prepackage yourself (ATC has a great cookbook) esp if you want more nutritious well balanced food and / or you get bored with the usual staples of Ramen, mac and cheese and potato mixes. You will need someone on the home front to help, though. And that is a good way to get a good friend or family member involved with your hike.

Jack T has a resupply article which can help decide where you need boxes and where you don't. There are areas that have very little or very expensive supplies or you spend time hitching and scrounging or walking to get food.

[Just a Hiker]

I'd take the stuff in the #10 cans and dehydrate them.

I misread your original post, I didn't realize the stuff was meat. I thought it might creamed corn or something!! My bad! Dehydrate away!

[mozzie]

the stuff in the cans is tvp. pure protien.half chix half beef.the chix can be pork with pork bullion. it is already dehidrated.tvp is the same stuff you eat in ravioli ,chef boardi,cant spell it,spag. and meatballs in a can.the things you can do with it is unlimited.just imagine the posibilitys.im going to open the cans and seal a meal any number of dinners out of it.

[mozzie]

about the dumplings,southern style.tvp can be found at any health food store.but a can or pouch of chix will do
bring water to a boil,with your chix ,chix bullion lots of pepper and salt.parsly and torn up or sliced tortilias flour.bring to good boil.then let sit.do this over and over,until the tortilias gets thick and puffy ad alittle pot. flakes to make it stick to your ribbs mmmmmmm home cookin in the middle of the woods

[minnesotasmith]

the stuff in the cans is tvp. pure protien.half chix half beef.the chix can be pork with pork bullion. it is already dehidrated.tvp is the same stuff you eat in ravioli ,chef boardi,cant spell it,spag. and meatballs in a can.the things you can do with it is unlimited.just imagine the posibilitys.im going to open the cans and seal a meal any number of dinners out of it.

Humans, especially males, should limit or avoid soy products, of which TVP is one. The estrogen analogues, the nutrient-blocking components -- surely no one here is so broke that they can't be at least a little selective about their diet from a health perspective. (TVP has excessive sodium, too, BTW.)

[rafe]

Humans, especially males, should limit or avoid soy products, of which TVP is one.

Do you have a cite for this claim, MS? It sounds like BS to me.

[Kirby]

I am personally quite fond of soy products.

Kirby

[rafe]

MS's remarks remind me of Col. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove.

Ripper: Mandrake?
Mandrake: Yes, Jack?
Ripper: Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?
Mandrake: Well, I can't say I have.
Ripper: Vodka, that's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?
Mandrake: Well, I-I believe that's what they drink, Jack, yes.
Ripper: On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.
Mandrake: Oh, eh, yes. I, uhm, can't quite see what you're getting at, Jack.
Ripper: Water, that's what I'm getting at, water. Mandrake, water is the source of all life. Seven-tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, do you realize that seventy percent of you is water?
Mandrake: Uh, uh, Good Lord!
Ripper: And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.
Mandrake: Yes. (he begins to chuckle nervously)
Ripper: Are you beginning to understand?
Mandrake: Yes. (more laughter)
Ripper: Mandrake. Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol?
Mandrake: Well, it did occur to me, Jack, yes.
Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation. Fluoridation of water?
Mandrake: Uh? Yes, I-I have heard of that, Jack, yes. Yes.
Ripper: Well, do you know what it is?
Mandrake: No, no I don't know what it is, no.
Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

....

[EWS]

Are you drunk tater?

[Appalachian Tater]

Are you drunk tater?

No, I rarely drink. I was a little tipsy Saturday night. Why do you ask?

[EWS]

Your posts in this thread are less coherent and non-confluent than usual, even though I know you're just trying to rib MS.

[Appalachian Tater]

Your posts in this thread are less coherent and non-confluent than usual, even though I know you're just trying to rib MS.

Lock it down.

[SGT Rock]

OK, so we have MS credentials out of the way. Is there a reference you can point us to on-line to read about this. This is sort of an interesting topic.

Hopefully something that is peer reviewed. I just did a google and don't trust most of what I read. "Soy Is Making Kids 'Gay'" was one of them.

[AT-HITMAN2005]

i never ate ramen on my hike....

[minnesotasmith]

OK, so we have MS credentials out of the way. Is there a reference you can point us to on-line to read about this. This is sort of an interesting topic.

Hopefully something that is peer reviewed. I just did a google and don't trust most of what I read. "Soy Is Making Kids 'Gay'" was one of them.

From a Food and Drug Administration article: http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

"...specific components of soy, such as the soy isoflavones daidzein and genistein, not the whole food or intact soy protein.

The problem, researchers say, is that isoflavones are phytoestrogens, a weak form of estrogen that could have a drug-like effect in the body. This may be pronounced in postmenopausal women, and some studies suggest that high isoflavone levels might increase the risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer..."

(And, how many guys here want to increase their intake of estrogens, which are female hormones?)
================================================== ==
From an internal letter at the FDA between scientists about soy, that was on ABC News:

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lsoy2.htm

"some of the isoflavones found in soy, including genistein and equol, a metabolize of daidzen, demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid. This is true for a number of species, including humans.
Additionally, the adverse effects in humans occur in several tissues and, apparently, by several distinct mechanisms. Genistein is clearly estrogenic; it possesses the chemical structural features necessary for estrogenic activity ( Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Tong, et al, 1997; Miksicek, 1998) and induces estrogenic responses in developing and adult animals and in adult humans.

...estrogens are important for maintenance of brain function in women; that the male brain contains aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol; and that isoflavones inhibit this enzymatic activity"

(They also mention thyroid problems that soy contributes to making more likely, plus it making birth defects and Alzheimer's more likely.)
================================================== =====
Other gov'ts' food/health agencies finding out problems with soy:

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_badnews.html

"In July [2005?], the Israeli Health Ministry warned that babies should not receive soy formula, that children should eat soy no more than once per day to a maximum of three times per week and that adults should exercise caution because of increased risk of breast cancer and adverse effects on fertility. The Ministry based its advice upon the conclusions reached by a 13-member committee of nutritionists, oncologists, pediatricians and other specialists who spent more than year examining the evidence. They concluded that the estrogen-like plant hormones in soy can cause adverse effects on the human body and strongly urged consumers to minimize their consumption of soy foods...

In addition to the recent soy warning issued by the Israeli Health Ministry, expert scientists with the British Committee
on Toxicity, Swiss Federal Health Service and other government agencies have all expressed concern about soy’s potential to disrupt the digestive, immune and neuroendocrine systems of the human body and its role in rising rates of infertility, hypothyroidism and some types of cancer including thyroid and pancreatic cancers.
Soy is also highly allergenic. Most experts now place soy protein among the top eight allergens, and some rate it in the top six or even top four. The Swedish Health Ministry has warned that allergic reactions to soy are increasingly common, ranging from mild to life threatening, and that fatalities have been reported."
================================================== =
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...soy_story.html

They show how Asians actually consume by weight only small amounts of soy products, that historically it was mainly used to enrich cropland, then plowed under.

"There's nothing natural about these modern soy protein products. Textured soy protein, for example, is made by forcing defatted soy flour through a machine called an extruder under conditions of such extreme heat and pressure that the very structure of the soy protein is changed. Production differs little from the extrusion technology used to produce starch-based packing materials, fiber-based industrial products, and plastic toy parts, bowls, and plates"

And, about the antinutrients:

"Antinutrients and Toxins in Soy
Scientists who have studied the use of soy protein in animal feeds over the years have discovered a number of components in soy that cause poor growth, digestive distress, and other health problems.24-27

To list just a few of these: Protease inhibitors interfere with protein digestion and have caused malnutrition, poor growth, digestive distress, and pancreatitis.28 Phytates block mineral absorption, causing zinc, iron, and calcium deficiencies.29-34 Lectins and saponins have caused leaky gut and other gastrointestinal and immune problems.35-36

Oxalates-surprisingly high in soy-may cause problems for people prone to kidney stones and women suffering from vulvodynia, a painful condition marked by burning, stinging, and itching of the external genitalia.37, 38 Finally, oligosaccharides give soy its notorious reputation as a gas producer. Although these are present in all beans, soy is such a powerful "musical fruit" that the soy industry has identified "the flatulence factor" as a major obstacle that must be overcome for soy to achieve full consumer acceptance."

Note that calcium tends to be deficient in thruhiker diets anyway, and vegetarians (more common among thrus than in the general populace) already tend to be running short on certain essential minerals, so there are even MORE reasons for those groups to avoid soy products.

"Soy Allergens
Soy is one of the top eight allergens that cause immediate hypersensitivity reactions such as coughing, sneezing, runny nose, hives, diarrhea, difficulty swallowing, and anaphylactic shock. Delayed allergic responses are even more common and occur anywhere from several hours to several days after the food is eaten. These have been linked to sleep disturbances, bedwetting, sinus and ear infections, crankiness, joint pain..."

Like bad sleep and joint pain are things thruhikers don't care about?
================================================== ==

http://www.nourishingourchildren.org/parents/soy.html

"Although SPI [Soy Protein Isolate] is added to many foods, it was never granted GRAS status, meaning "Generally Recognized as Safe". The FDA only granted GRAS status to SPI for use as a binder in cardboard boxes. During the processing of soy, many additional toxins are formed, including nitrates (which are carcinogens) and a toxin called lysinoalanine. It was concerns about lysinoalanine in SPI that led the FDA to deny GRAS status for SPI as a food additive."

"According to a Swiss report (see references), adult women consuming 100 mg isoflavones (about 2 cups of soy milk, or 1 cup of cooked mature soybeans) provide the estrogenic equivalent of a contraceptive pill. This means for a baby that weighs 6 kg (or just over 13 pounds), 10 mg provides the estrogenic equivalent of a contraceptive pill. Thus, the average amount of soybased formula taken in by a child provides the estrogenic equivalent of at least four birth control pills. Because babies are more vulnerable than adults to the effects of dietary estrogens, the effects could actually be much greater than that of four birth control pills. Hence the statement, "Babies on soy formula receive the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.""
============================================
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm

"...phytic acid", also called "phytates". This organic acid is present in the bran or hulls of all seeds and legumes, but none have the high level of phytates which soybeans do. Phytic acid blocks the body's uptake of essential minerals like magnesium, calcium, iron and especially zinc. Adding to the high phytate problem, soybeans are highly resistant to phytate-reducing techniques, such as long, slow cooking.

"In addition, soybeans also contain hemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance which causes red blood cells to clump together. These clustered blood cells cannot properly absorb oxygen for distribution to the body's tissues, and are unable to help in maintaining good cardiac health."

Thruhikers don't care about cardiac health and aerobic fitness, do they?
==================================================

How much more info do you people need? Omnivore or vegetarian, rich or broke, you can live your life quite nicely without large quantities of soy products.

[SGT Rock]

From a Food and Drug Administration
How much more info do you people need? Omnivore or vegetarian, rich or broke, you can live your life quite nicely without large quantities of soy products.

Thanks. I'll put some time into checking this out.

[Johnny Thunder]

Thanks. I'll put some time into checking this out.

Hey MS...sorry to jump in late here but I'll add some fuel to the fire. (thanks, by the way, for all the linkage, you saved me time)

As a health nut and lactard I was, for a time, using powdered soy protein as part of my post-workout routine. This also included a horse-pill multivitamin and glucosamine (a well-known amino that helps stimulate ligament regeneration and keeps your joints all healthy and lubbed).

I first had concerns with the Soy when I realized how downright gassy it made me. I asked the local GNC sales duder and he informed me of 3 important things which were later confirmed by my doctor (for the sake of the story I'll streamline it and not write out what each told me b/c it was litterally the same thing).

#1 Soy protein is a "complete protein"; however, it is the least bio-available of the common proteins. What bioavailable means is it is a rating of how much of the actual protein makes it to the muscles for regeneration. Highly bioavailable proteins closely mimic that which our body is built on. The highest being egg white protein and other meat protein (red meat, white meat, fish, etc). The next highest being milk-based protein (goat's whey being the best and cow weigh being next). Finally, vegtable based protein is the least available. This includes TVP, Soy, and the protein you'd find in potatoes and grains.

#2 Soy protein puts undue stress upon your immune system including your liver. It is recommended that ALL humans consume less than 2 servings of soy in any given day. Too much soy leads to fatty liver conditions similar to alcohol abuse. Note that I had blood work done immediately following my doc's discussion and found that I had "abnormal liver functions". Within 2 weeks of discontinuing consumption of the 20 grams of soy protein powder my blood work came back with no deviations from the norm. I was also told by the doctor that the soy would also effect the usefulness of the glucosamine. Since amino-supplements are not FDA regulated he could not comment on this directly.

#3 Soy-based protein consumption releases estrogen. Thanks to MS for posting this so clearly as I would have had to have done the research. Clearly there is a preponderance of information on this subject so I'll leave it at this: When your muscles regenerate, heal, etc they do best immediately following a work-out. Working out releases testosterone in men and women to varying degrees. What I was doing by ingesting soy was immediately dropping my testosterone levels below what they would have been before I went and ran/swim/biked/lifted/etc.

Ok, so I stopped using the soy...switched to goat's whey to avoid the lactard issues...and immediately noticed a change. First, almost no gas. Second, a quick drop in effects upon my liver. Finally, a quick and noticable change in my body. I was sore for less time. Also, I put on muscle after having "plateaued" (sp?) for a few months while on soy.

I've tried to help other hikers realize that by ingesting soy or vegtable-based protein they are doing well by their dietary needs but not by the muscular-skeletal needs of their athletic bodies. Soy protein has the same value as the 8 grams of protein you'd get from instant oatmeal. Yes, your body needs it to maintain energy; however, that protein isn't going to help your muscles repair the "microdamages" that eventually lead to you getting stronger.

I'm going to be 100% honest and say that I am not an expert in this field. An informed consumer...that's how I'd classify my understanding. When the sales duder and my doc spoke I understand everything.

See, I grew up in a home with two food scientists (one being a certified nutritionist, for whatever that's worth) who have worked at Unilever (read: Lipton) since before I was born. My parents have worked on or around the groups developing those great noodle packages hikers use on a daily basis. Actually, Pops is now more towards the Ragu side (a joke amongst my friends is that tomatoes litteraly put me through college) and my mom works in the test kitchen developing new products or new uses for old products.

When I was a kid I could get my hands on all sorts of cool things...like a 2 gallon bag of powdered caffeine...or purple Venezualan Ketchup. So, when I was planning the hike I asked Pops to hook me up with hundreds of noodles and powdered TVP (not realizing that TVP was essentially Soy).

"That's a complete meal, right?"

And then I got a dissertation on the three things listed above and how he essentially said that while soy protein based diet was unhealthy. When asked how vegetarians do it he said that they must rely heavily on milk and egg-based proteins.

And then I just took home some purple ketchup...which is cool...but not when you're 25.

In summation - Animal protein good. Soy Protein bad.