How much is an ounce worth to you?

[Dogwood]

Universal truths are sometimes assumed. What are universal truths changes. Sometimes, so much "truths' later turn out to be folly.

There's a huge disconnect here in the posts. Saving weight backpacking does not have to cost ANY MONEY or PURCHASING ANYTHING despite our tendencies to incorrectly assume otherwise patterned by a culture that tells us money and shopping are always the solutions. Here, yet again in abundant evidence, we are habituated to saving hauled backpacking weight thinking only in terms of gear weight.

What does saving a ounce of weight cost? Knowledge and trail savvy wisdom! Saving an ounce of wt is as simple as not carrying a bag of M&M's, that unnecessary hauling of more H20 than needed - 2-3 capfuls, ending a hike with left over food or fuel, or taking an extra uneaten granola bar.

There is entirely too much focus on money and shopping for gear to lower wt hauled when the largest single category of any one item most carry on multi day hikes are consumables. Not sexy, exciting, or entertaining enough though compared to the incessant never ending chatter about saving the tiniest amount - one ounce - on gear wt though, hey?

[-Rush-]

It's not a matter of $ per oz for me. I bought top quality gear that keeps me within an 8-12lb base weight depending on the trip. I've found that going lower than 8lb costs me comfort, protection, and money that I'm not willing to give up.

[ScareBear]

Universal truths are sometimes assumed. What are universal truths changes. Sometimes, so much "truths' later turn out to be folly.

There's a huge disconnect here in the posts. Saving weight backpacking does not have to cost ANY MONEY or PURCHASING ANYTHING despite our tendencies to incorrectly assume otherwise patterned by a culture that tells us money and shopping are always the solutions. Here, yet again in abundant evidence, we are habituated to saving hauled backpacking weight thinking only in terms of gear weight.

What does saving a ounce of weight cost? Knowledge and trail savvy wisdom! Saving an ounce of wt is as simple as not carrying a bag of M&M's, that unnecessary hauling of more H20 than needed - 2-3 capfuls, ending a hike with left over food or fuel, or taking an extra uneaten granola bar.

There is entirely too much focus on money and shopping for gear to lower wt hauled when the largest single category of any one item most carry on multi day hikes are consumables. Not sexy, exciting, or entertaining enough though compared to the incessant never ending chatter about saving the tiniest amount - one ounce - on gear wt though, hey?

Folks, please do NOT follow Dogma's dogma about carrying 2-3 caps of water. It is the most absurdist nonsense to be posted here in quite a long time. Carry enough water to keep you well-hydrated during and after your hike. Unless your all-natural diet and lifestyle somehow prevents the formation of kidney stones...
Know your water sources. Carry enough water so that if you are injured, you can wait it out. Carry enough water so that if you get food poisoning you will have enough water to stay in camp until you are well enough to get more.

I've been on stretches of the AT where we didn't see another human for over 24 hours. If you have 2-3 caps of water, become injured, next water is two miles away....will you be able to get there? What if you can't move? 2-3 caps of water for 24 hours...yeah...you'll be fine.....oh, wait...you've got something in your eye you need flushed out? Here, let me spit in it for you.....FFS....

[Engine]

Folks, please do NOT follow Dogma's dogma about carrying 2-3 caps of water. It is the most absurdist nonsense to be posted here in quite a long time. Carry enough water to keep you well-hydrated during and after your hike. Unless your all-natural diet and lifestyle somehow prevents the formation of kidney stones...
Know your water sources. Carry enough water so that if you are injured, you can wait it out. Carry enough water so that if you get food poisoning you will have enough water to stay in camp until you are well enough to get more.

I've been on stretches of the AT where we didn't see another human for over 24 hours. If you have 2-3 caps of water, become injured, next water is two miles away....will you be able to get there? What if you can't move? 2-3 caps of water for 24 hours...yeah...you'll be fine.....oh, wait...you've got something in your eye you need flushed out? Here, let me spit in it for you.....FFS....

Agreed, enough water to just wet your mouth might work if water sources are guaranteed to be reliable and quite close, like every couple miles. But even on the AT water sources are becoming less reliable. Also, you cannot generalize the individuals needs when it comes to hydration. Some of us are heavy sweaters and need much more water than others. Even in cool conditions, I barely break even on 16 ounces an hour when hiking at a decent pace. With that in mind I drink a liter when I fill up and then carry 1/2 liter for every estimated 75 minutes between water sources, up to about 4 hours. This formula works well for me 90% of the time, but when it really warms up I need even more than this provides or I'm peeing what looks like Guinness by the end of the day.

[ScareBear]

Agreed, enough water to just wet your mouth might work if water sources are guaranteed to be reliable and quite close, like every couple miles. But even on the AT water sources are becoming less reliable. Also, you cannot generalize the individuals needs when it comes to hydration. Some of us are heavy sweaters and need much more water than others. Even in cool conditions, I barely break even on 16 ounces an hour when hiking at a decent pace. With that in mind I drink a liter when I fill up and then carry 1/2 liter for every estimated 75 minutes between water sources, up to about 4 hours. This formula works well for me 90% of the time, but when it really warms up I need even more than this provides or I'm peeing what looks like Guinness by the end of the day.

Folks, if your pee often looks like Guinness on the trail, then you are really doing your kidneys a disservice. Anything darker than straw and you are storing too much waste in your kidneys. Wet organs like to be wet...running dry is a fool's errand and will lead to kidney stones, or worse...

[theory]

I would not pay $80 extra just to save an ounce. Unless I were filthy rich I may consider it but $80 can do a lot so I would carry the extra ounce and keep the money instead. I decided to go with a heavier tent when I could have saved 5 ounces and around $70 but the tent I went with offers extra room and lights so I went that route. You have to decide what is more important. Going ultralight isn't always the best option if it means less fun or enjoyment.

[CalebJ]

Folks, please do NOT follow Dogma's dogma about carrying 2-3 caps of water. It is the most absurdist nonsense to be posted here in quite a long time. Carry enough water to keep you well-hydrated during and after your hike. Unless your all-natural diet and lifestyle somehow prevents the formation of kidney stones...
Know your water sources. Carry enough water so that if you are injured, you can wait it out. Carry enough water so that if you get food poisoning you will have enough water to stay in camp until you are well enough to get more.

I've been on stretches of the AT where we didn't see another human for over 24 hours. If you have 2-3 caps of water, become injured, next water is two miles away....will you be able to get there? What if you can't move? 2-3 caps of water for 24 hours...yeah...you'll be fine.....oh, wait...you've got something in your eye you need flushed out? Here, let me spit in it for you.....FFS....

I suspect you missed Dogwood's point. Not that 2-3 capfuls of water is enough on the trail, but that an ounce of weight is the equivalent of 2-3 capfuls -less- of water. Simply adjusting the amount you carry down to a reasonable amount (for you) can save dramatically more weight than hundreds spent on gear. Obviously each of us needs to carry an appropriate amount to have an appropriate safety margin when we're out in the woods. For me, I'm comfortable on the AT with 48 ounces in the summer. In the wet season that could drop down to 32, and when water is scarce or on other trails that might be much higher. The point is to be mindful of what you actually need and not just fill up a 100 ounce water bladder plus two Nalgene's, etc...

[cmoulder]

Yes, directed more at folks who carry 3 liters of water all day while hiking along streams, and enough food for six days on a 3-day trip.

[Cheyou]

Wonder how much less space a 900fp quilt is compared to 850 in a backpack. For those with smaller pack space.

thom

[Dogwood]

Thank you Caleb and Cmoulder.

[colorado_rob]

For myself, it all depends on whether I'm simply replacing a worn out piece of gear vs. just upgrading a completely useable one, but I sure like those $10-15/ounce responses, seems like a lot of us think alike... when I'm shopping for a new piece of gear to replace something old/heavy/worn out, I've always kind-of used $100/half a pound ($12/oz) as my personal rough guideline, which is in that range. For example, I carried a 2.5 pound BA fly creek for the first half of the AT, an older tent that treated me well for many years, but maybe it was time to shop... so that's precisely when I bought the zpacks hexamid solo+ for $390, saving 1.5 pounds or 24 ounces, or just over $15/ounce, a bit over my "limit", but what the heck (I since sold the BA FC bringing the new tent cost/oz down into the range). I did something similar for a sleeping bag soon thereafter, saving about a pound.

I hear those water carry arguments, but for an experienced hiker that knows how much to carry and when, that's a completely independent issue. Same with food. But sure, less experienced hikers tend to carry too much, sometimes way too much of both. So I agree, before spending $$$$$ on UL gear, tune your water/food carries for free.

[Hikingjim]

Universal truths are sometimes assumed. What are universal truths changes. Sometimes, so much "truths' later turn out to be folly.

There's a huge disconnect here in the posts. Saving weight backpacking does not have to cost ANY MONEY or PURCHASING ANYTHING despite our tendencies to incorrectly assume otherwise patterned by a culture that tells us money and shopping are always the solutions. Here, yet again in abundant evidence, we are habituated to saving hauled backpacking weight thinking only in terms of gear weight.

What does saving a ounce of weight cost? Knowledge and trail savvy wisdom! Saving an ounce of wt is as simple as not carrying a bag of M&M's, that unnecessary hauling of more H20 than needed - 2-3 capfuls, ending a hike with left over food or fuel, or taking an extra uneaten granola bar.

There is entirely too much focus on money and shopping for gear to lower wt hauled when the largest single category of any one item most carry on multi day hikes are consumables. Not sexy, exciting, or entertaining enough though compared to the incessant never ending chatter about saving the tiniest amount - one ounce - on gear wt though, hey?

There's a disconnect between your post and gear purchasing, maybe because consumables are your favorite topic?
Pretty well all experienced hikers I've met have a good idea on water sources and minimizing consumables...

The ones that carry 3l of water when there's waterfalls dripping on their head all day are NOT the people that spend $500 to save half a pound.

[cmoulder]

The ones that carry 3l of water when there's waterfalls dripping on their head all day are NOT the people that spend $500 to save half a pound.

Yes, but there's lots in between — I seen 'em!

[Miner]

Talk about thread hijacking. Good job for changing the subject away from what the OP wanted.

Yes carrying just what you need can save weight for people who tend to over carry things, whether it be duplicate items, too much water or food due to a lack of planning, etc. Making note of the things you actually use on the trail and leaving the unused stuff behind can also save weight without cost. But that isn't what the OP was about. It is specifically about spending money and at what point is saving a little weight too much.

I'm willing to spend a lot for an ounce of savings because I've done everything else over the past several years and already have a pretty light pack. However, for someone who still has a 20 lbs baseweight, they don't have to spend as much per ounce as there are still plenty of items that can be purchased to reduce weight that don't use expensive materials like cuben fiber. And if you rarely use your gear, it doesn't make much sense to spend much on it.

As someone who backpacks a few hundred miles a year even when I'm not doing a named long trail, spending money is worth it since I use my gear often. I take the attitude that I wish I had spent big money in the first place because I ended up having to rebuy gear that I had that was still perfectly good if I wanted to reduce the weight further because I initially didn't buy the lightest stuff available that could do the job. So I wasted my money in the long run trying to save money in the short run. I still have a huge box of good gear that could outfit 2 or 3 people that I never use as a result.

[CalebJ]

The ones that carry 3l of water when there's waterfalls dripping on their head all day are NOT the people that spend $500 to save half a pound.

Really? Seems to me like there are lots of people running around the forums willing to spend vast quantities of money before learning the more important experiential lessons on how to pack.

[TTT]

An ounce to me only has value when it conserves my energy, has simplicity in design and serves it's primary purpose. Often multi-functional things end up becoming neither hot, nor cold, sorta like urine. I guess I want a spoon that acts like a spoon and not a spork.

[QiWiz]

I have been trying to lighten my pack weight without sacrificing too much in comfort and safety in advance of a section hike scheduled for the end of next month. One universal truth seems to be that lighter is more expensive.

I was looking a top quilt and noticed that a bag with 900 pf down is almost 1 oz lighter than one of the same temp rating but filled with 850 pf down. However, it is also about $80 more expensive.

So, I started to wonder: What the going rate is for a one ounce reduction in weight? I'd be very interested in hearing some thoughts.

The cheapest weight reduction is to camel up at water sources and carry only what you need to get to the next water source.
By the way, what's your cathole trowel weigh? Mine weighs 0.4 ounces.

[RangerZ]

The cheapest weight reduction is to camel up at water sources and carry only what you need to get to the next water source.
By the way, what's your cathole trowel weigh? Mine weighs 0.4 ounces.

Shameless plug, but I've got one of his also. No complaints.

[Dogwood]

When I hear assumptions like this "One universal truth seems to be that lighter is more expensive" I cringe. We often take that unquestioned. It's an assumption. Hiking lighter does NOT have to cost extravagant sums of money or even anything is my point. Actually, saving wt on gear and consumables can be accomplished to some degree very cheaply - by SAVING MONEY! It depends somewhat on where one is at on the SUL/UL/LW/conventionally weighted evolutionary scale and if one is on the Ul merry-go-round seeking the mysterious but often so coveted SUL Nirvana of the lowest wt is always the best individual option. BUT, saving wt at perhaps any backpacking stage can be accomplished cost effectively than commonly touted - $40-80 per oz. If we look around at some of those with very light wt and UL kits and wt hauled their gear and logistics aren't always across the board appropriately described as based on $$$! This is, again, an assumption that everyone buys themselves, with MUCH financial cost, into lighter wt - UL and SUL - hauls across the board on every wt saving gear or consumable catgeory.

Look at some of what Skurka, Wolf 23000(he uses/used a $30 8-9 oz REI Flash day pack and later went to making his own 4-5 oz thru-hiking pack for how much money?, please share Wolf!), or Scott Williamson, or Cam, Garlic, or Mags, or Heather, or a multitude of others with advanced UL kits and skills that get out a lot. They all know it's not just about the lightest wt most most expensive gear to lowering the haul.

Consumable wt reduction isn't given the rightly deserved consideration and discussion that going lighter demands. AND it's a GREAT PLACE TO CONSIDER WHEN NOT WANTING TO SPEND $$$$$. Put your $$$$$ perhaps back in your pocket before embarking on the assumption going UL always demands the deepest of pockets as a matter of "universal truth."

Since I know everyone likes to talk about gear wt and their gear here are some examples pertaining to gear though to demonstrate my pts:

11 oz $110 - $300 rain jacket and 5-7 oz $$ rain pants(16-18 oz) for a 8-9 oz $14 pr of Frogg Toggs or $15-30 7 oz poncho that doubles as a groundsheet and or minimalist tarp. If I think money solves everything I could spend upwards of $175 on a cuben fiber poncho at 6-7 ozs too. Mags just showed us how cheap and UL wind/very light rain pants can be with his "Dancing Pants" enlightenment.

Swap out $200 almost 3 lb boots(pr) for $70-100 1.5 lb trail runners(pr). Saves wt and money, at the very least on the front end. Might save some on injury bills, lower on trail time relating to lower $$$ spent for outings, etc.

$80 - $115 3.5 oz Dyneeema Composite(Cuben Fiber) groundsheet verse a $4-$6(for two!) Polycro/polyolefin - window film - at .6 oz.

Fancy Ti long handled spork or spoon for $10-14 at .6-. 9 oz verse a FREE .2 oz LEXAN long handled spork from DQ or Mc Daddy.

A DIY alchy cat can stove and Heinny/Fosters pot is less wt and less costly than a Ti pot, fancy Ti spork, and canister stove. Might save some bulk and add versatility too while enjoyably working on accumulating those empty beer cans.

Who says sleeping bag /quilts have to be a huge $$$ cost either? Go from a heavier wt more costly conventional down bag, even the highest end UL ones, to a lighter wt less costly Enlightened Equipment, Loco Libre, etc equally warm system. Very often quilts have a lower price pt comparatively than conventional sleeping bags making like comparisons. Saves wt! Saves $$$.

Why go for a very currently popular SUL/UL Dyneema Composite $325+ 21-23 oz backpack when one get another 21 0z at the same volume for $135? There may be reasons but perhaps there's also some gear junkie popularity envy occurring?

Why go for a $25-40 name backpacking brand polyester tee at 4-7 oz when a $6-8 3- 4 oz off name polyester tee does the job...perhaps even with better performance? Gotta love that prestigious logo, right?

Some could just as easily, based on their trips, use a $15 - $100 7-10 oz silny or poly OR, better yet, FREE TYVEK tarp at 8-9 oz(maybe $30) OR MYOG Window Film shelter($25) than a perhaps 2-20x as much cost and perhaps weighing 2-6x as much conventional or UL alternative?

Does everyone really need that $24 tube of fabric like a BUFF or $30 merino beanie verse a $1.5- 3oz watch cap or synthetic beanie or $1 UL bandana(not that much wt difference between this and a BUFF)?

Does everyone really need $20 merino socks at 3.5 oz when perhaps a 1 0z $2 polyester dress sock or $5 merino sock will do ...at the same or less wt?

Do we all need to spend $$$ on fancy gaiters when lighter wt $20 pr can work?

An illusion exists that going lighter means having to always spend more money or shop!

[One Half]

I just spent $17.96 per ounce of savings to buy a zpacks tent, pegs and sleeping bag. I'm cutting 3lbs 12 ounces off my base weight. Cost $898. To me, that's well worth the weight savings and since we can afford it within our regular budget, it makes it worth it to me.