Vitamin I dangers

[Traveler]

You always hear how NSAIDs reduce inflammation. I don't know what that means. What inflames? What does an inflamed joint feel like?

I have a pain in my right knee that was caused from a childhood injury to my patellar tendon and it feels very similar to runner's knee http://www.webmd.com/pain-management...n/runners-knee when it acts up -- I'm probably a good candidate for surgery. I know that this pain is similar to runner's knee, because I occasionally suffer from runner's knee to my left (good) knee when I over do it. The problem, however, with my right (bad) knee is that I have to do various exercises to keep it from hurting all the time.

My point is that I wonder how many people who suffer from Runner's knee (which is something, hiking (especially downhills) can easily cause) take these NSAIDs thinking they have joint pain, when actually it's not really the joint, but the connective tissue(s) outside the joint. Furthermore, how many people think that this is normal and the normal course of action should be to take NSAIDs every time this pain comes back?

What they should be doing is building up their connective tissues when not out on the trails. Instead they take these pills thinking that they are a REQUIRED part of hiking.

As a layperson, my understanding of Inflammation (having dealt with it a lot over a half century) is perhaps the most common source of pain, most soft tissue can become inflamed through overuse, strains, sprains, viruses, and infections. When these tissues become inflamed they swell, sometimes a lot, sometimes slightly, which causes pain around the tissue that is affected and neighboring tissue that may be displaced. The use of anti inflammatory medications is common to alleviate pain caused by inflammatory swelling. For serious or long term pain management prescription level NSAIDs may be used, minor pain management often finds over the counter NSAIDs to be suitable.

I know of no one who has ever said NSAIDs are "required", I presume thats hyperbole for the sake of the post. But, I know many people take these routinely, which the recent study release suggests that may have impact on heart problems even without a history of any. Keeping inside the "use as directed" limits is basically what the study was reinforcing, so your points about conditioning are good. Using NSAIDs continually when directions say no more than x number of pills per day over x number of days for a given problem without consulting an MD should be taken seriously.

[Pedaling Fool]

As a layperson, my understanding of Inflammation (having dealt with it a lot over a half century) is perhaps the most common source of pain, most soft tissue can become inflamed through overuse, strains, sprains, viruses, and infections. When these tissues become inflamed they swell, sometimes a lot, sometimes slightly, which causes pain around the tissue that is affected and neighboring tissue that may be displaced. The use of anti inflammatory medications is common to alleviate pain caused by inflammatory swelling. For serious or long term pain management prescription level NSAIDs may be used, minor pain management often finds over the counter NSAIDs to be suitable.

My point being that most people mindlessly take these pills on the slightest bit of discomfort. We all know what swelling feels like, but not all pain is a result of swelling; my knee problems I discussed above is just one example of that. However, I'm willing to bet that many people would erroneously conclude (given the same symptoms) that they were suffering from inflammation, because we here that term so much; they would also erroneously conclude that they were having joint pain.

I know of no one who has ever said NSAIDs are "required", I presume thats hyperbole for the sake of the post. But, I know many people take these routinely, which the recent study release suggests that may have impact on heart problems even without a history of any. Keeping inside the "use as directed" limits is basically what the study was reinforcing, so your points about conditioning are good. Using NSAIDs continually when directions say no more than x number of pills per day over x number of days for a given problem without consulting an MD should be taken seriously.

There is absolutely no hyperbole in what I said. There are plenty of people that I've hiked with that see these pills as a required part of hiking. I've even run and cycled with those who believe they are a required part of their kit for those activities.


I call BS, but that's not to say that I agree with the OP in this thread. I'm simply stating that many people turn to these pills rather than seeking other remedies to what ails them. Here is a good article on that and I'm in 100% agreement with.

I too, would love to simply take a pill, but life ain't that easy.



http://news.yahoo.com/exercise-extra...110000286.html

Excerpt:


And if we break our behavior down even further, physical activity has one of the biggest impacts on our overall health. The science is clear: Every system of the body benefits when a person exercises. A daily dose of physical activity is highly effective for preventing and treating many of our most prevalent chronic diseases, including coronary heart disease, hypertension, heart failure, obesity, depression and diabetes.

The bottom line is that physical activity is very ( very) good for our health. In fact, people who are regular exercisers can expect to live an average of seven years longer than their physically inactive friends.


So why are physicians, regardless of their specialty, not prescribing exercise to their patients? An initiative called Exercise is Medicine® that focuses on encouraging health care providers to include physical activity when designing treatment plans for their patients is trying to change this.


A key component of Exercise is Medicine is to have all health care providers assess their patients' physical activity at every visit. The Exercise is Medicine initiative aims to have physical activity recorded as a vital sign during patient visits and to encourage able patients to meet the physical activity guidelines. The goal is that inactive patients should be given exercise counseling or an exercise prescription to either a health or fitness professional or program.


Unfortunately, research published in the Journal of Physical Activity and Health reveals that more than 50 percent of the physicians trained in the U.S. in 2013 received no formal education in physical activity, and they are likely not prepared to help their patients with their exercise plan.


In his Huffines Presentation in 2013, Dr. Bob Sallis stated that exercise is a wonder drug. If it was listed in the Physician's Desk Reference (the largest compendium of drugs), it would be the most powerful drug currently available. And it would be malpractice not to prescribe it. These are powerful words that make a lot of sense.


So why has the medical community neglected this information? Partly because it's easier to prescribe a pill or surgery. We are a prescription nation. According to researchers at the Mayo Clinic and Olmsted Medical Center, almost 70 percent of Americans take at least one prescription drug -- costing us $374 billion in 2014.


It's time for our health care providers to start prescribing exercise as a drug. In fact, regular exercise is likely the single best prescription people of all ages could take for a huge host of health benefits. Simple stated, exercise is medicine. And we all need to adopt this mantra, because our health depends on it.

[BirdBrain]

When you need pain killers/anti inflamatories/fever reducers, you need them.

Theres tradeoffs in everything. Including sitting on the sofa.

I am mostly with you on this one too. Of course there are many other ways to get proper exercise without putting such stresses on the body that make vitamin I so popular. I love hiking for the hills. That choice means pain for me. I choose the pleasure of hiking and am willing to subject my body to the abuses of the pain and damages of vitamin I as a trade off. I know I am doing damage. I do it willingly. I have one life. Some will die healthy and some will die happy. I plan on burning out, not saving my oil in a rotting cask. Again, I am mostly with you.

[Pedaling Fool]

I am mostly with you on this one too. Of course there are many other ways to get proper exercise without putting such stresses on the body that make vitamin I so popular. I love hiking for the hills. That choice means pain for me. I choose the pleasure of hiking and am willing to subject my body to the abuses of the pain and damages of vitamin I as a trade off. I know I am doing damage. I do it willingly. I have one life. Some will die healthy and some will die happy. I plan on burning out, not saving my oil in a rotting cask. Again, I am mostly with you.

You know you're doing damage when you hike? Why is that?

Probably because you don't exercise during your non-hiking time.

You seem to be saying that it's natural to wear down the body during a hike – it's not.

[BirdBrain]

You know you're doing damage when you hike? Why is that?

Probably because you don't exercise during your non-hiking time.

You seem to be saying that it's natural to wear down the body during a hike – it's not.

You are correct about my exercise regiment. I should do more. I doubt I am alone in that regard. You are also correct that hiking can benefit the body. Those that sit around do not stress their system enough. Pushing the body forces it to repair and strengthen itself. My body has a history of injuries. Those injuries make my walks painful and I am certain I am not helping the injured parts. Again, my choice. I will not disagree with many of the criticisms I might get for those choices. I am going to be honest about my plans though. I do not plan to have my knees repaired until I am done hiking. I was advised to have an operation in 1980. I believe if I had followed that advice then, I would not be doing what I am now. No, I am not saying I am smarter than the doctors or that people should follow my lead. I am saying I will continue to deal with the pain with the body I have. I am able to overcome. Vitamin I helps in that regard. Call me irresponsible. I will not argue. I will still hold my course.

[Another Kevin]

You know you're doing damage when you hike? Why is that?

Probably because you don't exercise during your non-hiking time.

You seem to be saying that it's natural to wear down the body during a hike – it's not.

In middle age, I let myself go to pot. My choice: I was focusing on work and family, and thought I hadn't much time to exercise. I also have a phobia of gyms that I'm unlikely ever to overcome.

With my daughter grown, I've been able to hike more. But now I'm to the point where it's a delicate balance between not doing enough to improve my conditioning, and doing myself an injury. I have a considerable amount of accumulated wear and tear in both knees, but am inclined to postpone surgery as long as possible because I'm afraid that I might outlive the repair.

Occasionally, I get the balance wrong and hurt something. Most often it's a knee because they're my weak link. When a knee displays the classic fundamentals of inflammation (the rubor, calor, tumor, dolor of Celsus and functio laesa of Galen), I try to treat it conservatively with PRICE (Protect, Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate) and avoidance of HARM (Heat, Alcohol, Reinjury, Massage). If it happens on trail, the opportunity to Protect and Rest is limited. Ice is unavailable, although I do the best I can to cool it with a wet bandana. I carry an Ace wrap for compression because this is a recurrent problem. If I reinjured a knee in the last few months, I'll also likely carry an a elastic brace. Elevation I do at rest stops and at night.

Since I need to get back to civilization and PRICE it properly when this happens, I sometimes need to be able to relieve symptoms so that I can walk out. That's when I resort to an NSAID. I realize that their use is controversial, because inflammation is thought to aid the healing process. There's certainly fairly strong evidence against the use of coxibs or indomethacin in fractures - those are clearly demonstrated to retard bone healing. In any case, if I need to relieve symptoms in order to get safely back to the car, I do so.

[BirdBrain]

AK brings up an important point. It is a very common occurrence for a hiker to suffer some damage miles from any possible relief. When that happens, there are few great choices. You can stand pat and starve to death. You can call for a helicopter. You can hike out. Many many people hike out on injured members. I just cut to the chase. I hike in on injured members.

[Pedaling Fool]

You are correct about my exercise regiment. I should do more. I doubt I am alone in that regard. You are also correct that hiking can benefit the body. Those that sit around do not stress their system enough. Pushing the body forces it to repair and strengthen itself. My body has a history of injuries. Those injuries make my walks painful and I am certain I am not helping the injured parts. Again, my choice. I will not disagree with many of the criticisms I might get for those choices. I am going to be honest about my plans though. I do not plan to have my knees repaired until I am done hiking. I was advised to have an operation in 1980. I believe if I had followed that advice then, I would not be doing what I am now. No, I am not saying I am smarter than the doctors or that people should follow my lead. I am saying I will continue to deal with the pain with the body I have. I am able to overcome. Vitamin I helps in that regard. Call me irresponsible. I will not argue. I will still hold my course.

In middle age, I let myself go to pot. My choice: I was focusing on work and family, and thought I hadn't much time to exercise. I also have a phobia of gyms that I'm unlikely ever to overcome.

With my daughter grown, I've been able to hike more. But now I'm to the point where it's a delicate balance between not doing enough to improve my conditioning, and doing myself an injury. I have a considerable amount of accumulated wear and tear in both knees, but am inclined to postpone surgery as long as possible because I'm afraid that I might outlive the repair.

Occasionally, I get the balance wrong and hurt something. Most often it's a knee because they're my weak link. When a knee displays the classic fundamentals of inflammation (the rubor, calor, tumor, dolor of Celsus and functio laesa of Galen), I try to treat it conservatively with PRICE (Protect, Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate) and avoidance of HARM (Heat, Alcohol, Reinjury, Massage). If it happens on trail, the opportunity to Protect and Rest is limited. Ice is unavailable, although I do the best I can to cool it with a wet bandana. I carry an Ace wrap for compression because this is a recurrent problem. If I reinjured a knee in the last few months, I'll also likely carry an a elastic brace. Elevation I do at rest stops and at night.

Since I need to get back to civilization and PRICE it properly when this happens, I sometimes need to be able to relieve symptoms so that I can walk out. That's when I resort to an NSAID. I realize that their use is controversial, because inflammation is thought to aid the healing process. There's certainly fairly strong evidence against the use of coxibs or indomethacin in fractures - those are clearly demonstrated to retard bone healing. In any case, if I need to relieve symptoms in order to get safely back to the car, I do so.

Seems like you all got your way set, fine, I can't argue with that.

However, I will say that the maintenance required to maintain a healthy body is not all that much work/time. All that's required is some running a few times a week and some simple strength exercises which takes no time, can be done during lunch time, because the fact is no one really needs lunch.

We have a saying in the navy. Maintain a steady strain.

Hiking every so often and suffering the physical discomforts is a heavy strain and really takes a toll, whereas doing a little everyday is maintaining a steady strain, therefore you keep your health by simple things everyday, reducing the hardships of periodical heavy strains.


But you all set your priorities, hope it works for you...

AK brings up an important point. It is a very common occurrence for a hiker to suffer some damage miles from any possible relief. When that happens, there are few great choices. You can stand pat and starve to death. You can call for a helicopter. You can hike out. Many many people hike out on injured members. I just cut to the chase. I hike in on injured members.

Everyone hikes thru pain and injury. Back in 1999, I hiked from Rockfish Gap to Harpers Ferry on a severely sprained ankle, never once took NSAIDs and I'm fine – didn't screw me up for life, the body is very tough as long as you do some simple maintenance. This is not about hiking injury free, injuries are just a part of hiking. However, if you feel you're tearing up your body everytime you go hiking, that's a problem, but as you said, it's your choice, so I'll end here.

[BirdBrain]

Seems like you all got your way set, fine, I can't argue with that.

However, I will say that the maintenance required to maintain a healthy body is not all that much work/time. All that's required is some running a few times a week and some simple strength exercises which takes no time, can be done during lunch time, because the fact is no one really needs lunch.

We have a saying in the navy. Maintain a steady strain.

Hiking every so often and suffering the physical discomforts is a heavy strain and really takes a toll, whereas doing a little everyday is maintaining a steady strain, therefore you keep your health by simple things everyday, reducing the hardships of periodical heavy strains.


But you all set your priorities, hope it works for you...





Everyone hikes thru pain and injury. Back in 1999, I hiked from Rockfish Gap to Harpers Ferry on a severely sprained ankle, never once took NSAIDs and I'm fine – didn't screw me up for life, the body is very tough as long as you do some simple maintenance. This is not about hiking injury free, injuries are just a part of hiking. However, if you feel you're tearing up your body everytime you go hiking, that's a problem, but as you said, it's your choice, so I'll end here.

The above is the voice of reason. A lot of wisdom there. People would do well to follow that example and ignore the stubbornness of this old fart. He is absolutely correct. Those that are to engage in strenuous activities would do well to maintain a body able to endure such activity. It is all a matter of priorities. I am too busy sucking the marrow out of too many projects to devote the time to do any one of them well. However, at the end of my life, I will have a list that is about as eclectic as any. If more of those ventures required a fit body, I would likely prioritize exercise more. Alas, hiking is just a small part of what makes me tick.

[Another Kevin]

Seems like you all got your way set, fine, I can't argue with that.

However, I will say that the maintenance required to maintain a healthy body is not all that much work/time. All that's required is some running a few times a week and some simple strength exercises which takes no time, can be done during lunch time, because the fact is no one really needs lunch.

It doesn't make up for years of neglect.

Everyone hikes thru pain and injury. Back in 1999, I hiked from Rockfish Gap to Harpers Ferry on a severely sprained ankle, never once took NSAIDs and I'm fine – didn't screw me up for life, the body is very tough as long as you do some simple maintenance. This is not about hiking injury free, injuries are just a part of hiking. However, if you feel you're tearing up your body everytime you go hiking, that's a problem, but as you said, it's your choice, so I'll end here.

I said no such thing. I carry ibuprofen on every trip, just as I carry other emergency supplies. I use it perhaps on one trip in ten. (I also carry Cipro and Vicodin on certain trips in very remote areas. I haven't used either yet.)

I think I'm detecting a bit of bragging in your tone. Sure, you've maintained a fit and toned body for many years. Some of us didn't, and are trying to make up for it. You also have a high ability to tolerate pain. Some of us have less of one. If you'd like me to tell you that I'm a wimp compared with your superior ability to deal with the world without chemical assistance, fine, you win.

[BirdBrain]

I think that last part by PF was directed at me. I am the one tearing up his body. Besides, I have already been called weak by some other tough guy. No biggie. I know who I am. My wife thinks I am all that and a bag of chips. Her opinion is all that matters.

[rocketsocks]

I think that last part by PF was directed at me. I am the one tearing up his body. Besides, I have already been called weak by some other tough guy. No biggie. I know who I am. My wife thinks I am all that and a bag of chips. Her opinion is all that matters.

depends...what kinda chips?

[rocketsocks]

I been eatin' nsaids for 20 years, not good, but no ulcer yet. I prefer getting outta bed in the morning, not the afternoon.

[BirdBrain]

depends...what kinda chips?

She thinks I am hot and spicy. I think I am stale and greasy. Again, only her opinion matters though. I can hear the groans. I am serious. Love is blind and she definitely needs glasses.

[BirdBrain]

I been eatin' nsaids for 20 years, not good, but no ulcer yet. I prefer getting outta bed in the morning, not the afternoon.

Wimp.


Now where is that big grin smiley face that says I am just kidding?

[Pedaling Fool]

I said no such thing. I carry ibuprofen on every trip, just as I carry other emergency supplies. I use it perhaps on one trip in ten. (I also carry Cipro and Vicodin on certain trips in very remote areas. I haven't used either yet.)

I think I'm detecting a bit of bragging in your tone. Sure, you've maintained a fit and toned body for many years. Some of us didn't, and are trying to make up for it. You also have a high ability to tolerate pain. Some of us have less of one. If you'd like me to tell you that I'm a wimp compared with your superior ability to deal with the world without chemical assistance, fine, you win.

It was directed strictly at one of BB's post, period.


I'm not bragging, but I understand, this being a forum, how that came come across that way. Simply saying the body and mind are amazing and don't need all the pills thrusted in our face, so amazing I could easily slip into a discussion on the metaphysical... But enough said.

[Traveler]

Seems to me the Village People had very good things to say about the Navy too. Fine place to be.

[BirdBrain]

It was directed strictly at one of BB's post, period.

FWIW, I took no offense. I knew who you were jabbing. Your advice is practical. I am stubborn.

[Pedaling Fool]

Seems to me the Village People had very good things to say about the Navy too. Fine place to be.

Seems like you're trying to say something, but it's just coming out as mush. Maybe you should attempt to reorganize your thoughts and try later...

[Wülfgang]

I'm not even sure what you guys are debating anymore.

Speaking clinically and from a personal perspective; regular "strain" as the PF puts it is generally good for your body in terms of adaptation. But, too much strain, or cyclic loading, can cause cumulative microtrauma and inflammation. This is going to vary from person to person. I was a powerlifter for about 10 years and heavy squatting week after week did take a permanent toll on my knees. I also cant tolerate running. But I can still hike multiple times a week, lift moderate weights, cycle, etc.

Some people love to run and can put 20, 30, 40 miles on a week without any ostensible ill effects on their joints. This will depend a lot on bodyweight, age, previous conditioning.

Re: NSAIDS, if you need 'em, take 'em. They are great drugs when used in moderation. Some inflammation is good, such as in fracture healing, but cumulative inflammation is never good, especially in your joints because it degrades chondral tissue. Hence OA, RA, teninopathies, etc.