Possum Down - Is it ethical?

[StealthHikerBoy]

Stumbled upon this video (warning - it is pretty powerful and upsetting):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bXtFRqc5dI

I've never used possum down, but what do folks think about Zpacks using it? Looks pretty cruel, but then again I have no idea how the loads of gear I have with goose down in it is sourced.

[MuddyWaters]

Its a non -native invasive species I believe, that is doing environmental damage to New Zealand and threatening native species.

[Starchild]

Never heard of it, but it does seem like the attempt to humanely dispatch the animal was made, though perhaps fumbled as we are not perfect, but quickly attended to. Such videos are prised by thoses who wish to make a point without telling the full story.

What does z-pack sell that is possumdown and really what is it at all?

[lyagooshka]

Just my $0.02.
Didn't watch the video.
Have no interest, assuming the possum dies.
Just wanted to say that even if the followinf is true:

Its a non -native invasive species I believe, that is doing environmental damage to New Zealand and threatening native species.

The animal is not responsible and every attempt should be made:

...to humanely dispatch the animal...

I'm not saying anyone here said otherwise, but I just want to reiterate as I have been down south hunting boar and seen some, shall we say, "less than ethical" persons purposefully shooting the boar to injure it and finish it off later.
The boar is not at fault.
It's a wild pig doing what wild pigs do.

Yes, I hunt, and I am no fan of many of these 'animal rights' groups, but I am even less a fan of people who enjoy torturing ANYTHING.
No, killing for food is not the same.

Again, just my $0.02.

[theinfamousj]

Just my $0.02.
Didn't watch the video.
Have no interest, assuming the possum dies.
Just wanted to say that even if the followinf is true:

The animal is not responsible and every attempt should be made:


I'm not saying anyone here said otherwise, but I just want to reiterate as I have been down south hunting boar and seen some, shall we say, "less than ethical" persons purposefully shooting the boar to injure it and finish it off later.
The boar is not at fault.
It's a wild pig doing what wild pigs do.

Yes, I hunt, and I am no fan of many of these 'animal rights' groups, but I am even less a fan of people who enjoy torturing ANYTHING.
No, killing for food is not the same.

Again, just my $0.02.

The video showed two instantaneous kills (the most humane dispatch possible) and then written overlay about poisoning which had an emotional and prima facie false suggestion of continued life of Joeys and suggested they experienced emotional trauma.

After researching further, a doe with joeys in her pitch will be a dead doe with dead joeys. No one left to mourn. Which invalidates their particular implied claim, even if a torturing operation may not be as humane as the blunt trauma instantaneous kills actually shown.

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[Dogwood]

The video showed two instantaneous kills (the most humane dispatch possible) and then written overlay about poisoning which had an emotional and prima facie false suggestion of continued life of Joeys and suggested they experienced emotional trauma.

After researching further, a doe with joeys in her pitch will be a dead doe with dead joeys. No one left to mourn. Which invalidates their particular implied claim, even if a torturing operation may not be as humane as the blunt trauma instantaneous kills actually shown.

That is not an instantaneous kill in the opening scene. What the heck is your definition of instantaneous? For many it means no suffering which is just another way to emotionally soften the trauma of the physical death experience into more easily accepted terms. Seems you're emotionally and mentally fooling yourself phrasing that as an instantaneous non painful death.

A mother unnaturally, tragically, and untimely forcibly separated from her children as one is living with the other dead both experience loss. It's obvious throughout the animal kingdom, including but not exclusive to the human species, as various species "mourn" the untimely loss of their young or children 'mourn' the death of their mother or parents/guardian which is sometimes the male. Yes separation trauma does exist beyond the human species. Species have been shown in countless examples to cooperate with each other rather than always there being an adversarial relationship. Yes, despite denials animal species beyond the human animals species does have emotions and experiences emotional and physical pain.

There is no doubt the vid is shot to express pain, intended to raise awareness of disconnected human behavior, and connecting to our human behavior even if it is uncomfortable to face. I'd rather come to terms with my own human behavior rather than mentally juggling the rationality of it to make it more easily accepted as humanity so often chooses to do.

[Dogwood]

It's typical for humans to take themselves out of the cause and effect chain of events. It's obvious in bear/human encounter arrogant ignorant human centric stories. The possums in NZ are an introduced BY MAN non endemic species. Humanity has an overwhelming arrogant tendency for self aggrandizement and heightened sense of self importance. Humanity is more inclined to see itself as the solution to the explosion and rampant havoc of the brushy tail possum problem. BUT IT WAS HUMANITY'S ACTIONS THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE! This human centric species view of ignoring human accountability is based on the workd view that the human animal is separated from and above the rest off an ecological whole. It is hubris of the highest order. And, it will result in greater and greater ecological destruction with man eventually turning on each other.

Just like the U.S Dust Bowl
Just like the demise of the native bird populations in Hawaii.
Just like the European rabbit explosions and decimation in Australia when they were introduced BY MAN for food and hunting
Just like the demise of the American Bison, mountain lion, grizzly bear(which used to range the entire western U.S. as little as 120 yrs aqo), eastern wolves, U.S. jaguars, loss of the American Elm, wild horses, demise of eastern wild salmon,....

[nsherry61]

. . . it will result in greater and greater ecological destruction with man eventually turning on each other. . .

Just like the demise of . . . the American Elm, wild horses . . .

Two thoughts:

1) And what is new or unusual about either "ecological destruction" or "man . . . turning on each other"?

We already turn on each other for all kinds of dubious reasons. And speaking of arrogance, be careful not to suggest that humans are the only species that create ecological destruction. We still have a ways to go (although not as far as I wish we did) to be able to compare ourselves with, for instance, cyanobacteria and oxygenation of our atmosphere.

2) Sure, Dutch Elm disease was brought to N. American through human action, but that catastrophe was not due to human arrogance, just human ignorance.

3) Wild horses are an introduced species, so, I don't see how the demise of wild horses fits into your argument very effectively.

4) Yes, I am nitpicking what I consider an irresponsibly idealized morality regarding irresponsible human actions.

[rickb]

Has everyone lost their minds?

Don't believe everything you see on the Internet.

[tdoczi]

Has everyone lost their minds?

Yes.

Present company quite likely not excluded.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Has everyone lost their minds?

I haven't lost mine yet, but not for lack of trying...

[greensleep]

[QUOTE=rickb;2110461]Has everyone lost their minds?

Yes, found it though, but have never been sure if it was actually mine.

[Greenlight]

I didn't think it was powerful or upsetting. It was a hunter taking down small game. I liked the weepy orchestral backdrop for the video. It made me want to fly home and watch Lifetime movie where all women are skinny and do yoga while wearing cottage crystal jewelry and drinking cucumber water. If you want natural products, they come from natural sources. If you want pork, you have to slaughter a pig. If you want a coon skin cap, some raccoon somewhere has to take a bullet to the brain. Killing game isn't cruel, it's a fact of life that children on farms used to learn when they were two, and most of them had downed their first buck by the time they were six.

Stumbled upon this video (warning - it is pretty powerful and upsetting):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bXtFRqc5dI

I've never used possum down, but what do folks think about Zpacks using it? Looks pretty cruel, but then again I have no idea how the loads of gear I have with goose down in it is sourced.

[Dogwood]

This is the side of the kill we don't want to recognize. This depicts tracing sourcing from the beginning which is often intentionally hidden from us for good reason... humans in their arrogance don't want to admit how human centric and self absorbed we OFTEN are. The opening kill scene could have been a quicker decisive absolute kill. The hammer to the head was NOT immediate. NO, all animals don't meet with a quick "humane" death. The idea that animals can't suffer is pure nonsense science has debunked and shown to be vastly disingenuous. Yes, I'm a hunter too or at least used to hunt extensively. I can state without a doubt animals aren't always dead with the first shot or with the first attempt at the kill or over in a millisecond as usually depicted in many hunting, survivalist, and softened and edited for public acceptance animal food industry kill vids. And without a doubt I recognize fear, pain, terror, and torment on animal's faces and in their bodies leading up to and during their death. What is going through their brains and emotions(YES animals have emotions!) has to be similar although it can be easy to lie to ourselves that this is not the case. This is true and observed even on the cellular level as cells move away from or attempt to avoid discomfort and pain or life, in its' earliest stages, in vitro.

Although a movie, if we as a species had more attachment to everything as depicted in Powder perspectives would be change. Powder's physical appearance, so outside the norm and unfamiliar, is symbolic also of his thoughts and perspectives compared to the norm. Don't get it twisted; this isn't an anti hunting or anti meat eating or pro PETA rant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ2Cg6koHPQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVaBT9KTI4c I experienced this awakening, this connection. Made me see life, all of it, differently. I may still sustenance hunt though and will certainly pull a trigger if I think need be.

These topics are directly related to our walks and behavior.

[theinfamousj]

So, let me get this straight, Zpacks is making use of a part of the animal that would otherwise be tossed away and we are supposed to be upset? I am *thrilled* they are helping use the whole animal!

Also, as a chemist the cyanide textual overlay made me roll my eyes. Of course that is how cyanide kills mammals. The trope of the spy with the cyanide capsule tooth is well played out. The spy would experience the same.

But here is where I am confused: cyanide is a gas so in order to gas the possum, don't you also have to gas its clinging babies? Why suggest that they are living as that simply defeats credibility? Cyanide doesn't know it is supposed to only be inhaled by one animal out of a group. It isn't sentient.

Possum stew is a thing. Even here in the US, possums are hunted for that purpose. Don't think anyone gives any thought to the fur when making stew. Don't suppose you can donate to Zpacks?

But to be honest, I am surprised that in the quantities needed for all the possum down gloves and socks I have seen produced by manufacturers that these specific possum types are wild hunted rather than factory farmed. Seems more efficient to so the latter.

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[Dogwood]

So, let me get this straight, Zpacks is making use of a part of the animal that would otherwise be tossed away and we are supposed to be upset? I am *thrilled* they are helping use the whole animal!....

I'm all for using the whole animal too. Let's apply your reasoning to all animals....including the human animal. Soylent HUMAN FOOD made from recycled human protein/dead humans?, HUMAN leather products?, How about no more human coffins, human mummification, or entombment? We need the land for other things! Human fertilizer and fish food? Humans could make good sources of both.

How do you feel about that?

[nsherry61]

I'm all for using the whole animal too. Let's apply your reasoning to all animals....including the human animal. Soylent HUMAN FOOD made from recycled human protein/dead humans?, HUMAN leather products?, How about no more human coffins, human mummification, or entombment? We need the land for other things! Human fertilizer and fish food? Humans could make good sources of both.

How do you feel about that?

. . . Good!

[TexasBob]

........
Also, as a chemist the cyanide textual overlay made me roll my eyes. Of course that is how cyanide kills mammals. The trope of the spy with the cyanide capsule tooth is well played out. The spy would experience the same.

But here is where I am confused: cyanide is a gas so in order to gas the possum, don't you also have to gas its clinging babies? Why suggest that they are living as that simply defeats credibility? Cyanide doesn't know it is supposed to only be inhaled by one animal out of a group. It isn't sentient. .......

They are using baits with the poison 1080 (sodium fluoroacetate) not cyanide. Read about it here - http://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-...-pest-control/ . 1080 baits were used for predator control (coyotes) here in the US but that has been stopped.

[AfterParty]

I don't understand some people still trap and he dispatched the animal pretty efficiently. He will probably get a couple bucks max for each possom he traps to feed his family. zpacks is not buying direct from the trappers.

[theinfamousj]

And then I did research and found this

https://sites.google.com/site/basica...kin-harvesting

Where I learned that to be able to get the quantities of possum down necessary to meet manufacturing demand it is actually a blend with merino wool (to make up volume). A ha!

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