Why the Rockwell Giardia Article should be removed from Whiteblaze

[Pedaling Fool]

Good idea.

I have always wondered about the health benefits of washing my hands after I pee. Hard not to at home, but it really doesn't matter, does it?

Funny how many things we do out of habit or fear of doing something different than the accepted norm.

Like drinking water straight from a flowing stream in the mountains, perhaps?

I've always thought it should be the norm for us to wash our hands before going pee. Isn't it our hands that have been in the dirty world, while our other member has been in protective custody

[birchy]

Looks like only 21% of the men in the study treated water consitantly-- and about 56% of all hikers had diarrhea sometime during their hikes.

It might have been a "very good study" but the only conclusion I would draw without seeing it in its entirety is that very few AT thru hikers treat their water consistently.

YEAH, and I bet that 40% of hikers actually get diarrhea from the beer and pizza they gorge on in town. Diarrhea is generally associated with abrupt changes in diet.

[Colter]

YEAH, and I bet that 40% of hikers actually get diarrhea from the beer and pizza they gorge on in town. Diarrhea is generally associated with abrupt changes in diet.

There is no doubt that most backpacker gastrointestinal problems aren't caused by giardiasis. It tends to be giardiasis that sends hikers to the ER, though: "Several backpackers appear weekly at Centinela Mammoth Hospital in Mammoth Lakes sick enough with giardiasis to need urgent care," said Dr. Jack Bertman, an emergency physician.

[Tuckahoe]

YEAH, and I bet that 40% of hikers actually get diarrhea from the beer and pizza they gorge on in town. Diarrhea is generally associated with abrupt changes in diet.

I tend to doubt that. After all how is the hiker town diet of beer and pizza different than the beer and pizza diet of most Americans? Especially the twenty something hiker.

Simply the most common cause of diarrhea is poor hygiene and sanitation.

[Colter]

#1: People are free to treat or not treat as they see fit.

Personally, I am not sure whether it is or not. Definitely worth considering, though.

I would say the same for the thinking behind this equally thoughtful piece:
http://www.nptrail.org/uploads/GiardiaMyth-Buster.pdf

Erik Schlimmer's writing contains some egregious misinformation. I find it strange that a paper originally entitled How Hearsay and Anecdotal Evidence has Created a False Industry Standard contains pages of hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

Schlimmer: Has Giardia really infested our water sources... I calmly answer "No, it has not." He then goes on to explain that "only" about a third of Sierra water sources tested positive for giardia. If e-coli was found in the food of 1/3 of the stores in a restaurant chain, would that be "infested?"

EPA [Giardia] Cysts have been found all months of the year in surface waters from the Arctic to the tropics in even the most pristine of surface waters. You can check many stats and cited (actual scientific) papers at that link.

Schlimmer: No studies have shown that the consumption of back country water in North American is an important cause of this disease. [giardiasis] A statement made out of ignorance, at best. This peer-reviewed, scientific paper says ...drinking untreated mountain water is an important cause of endemic infection

Schlimmer says that in the Sierra study there were "nowhere near enough [giardia] cysts to make you sick, considering you must ingest approximately twenty viable cysts to make you sick." Absolutely false. For someone claiming to be an expert, his ignorance is painful. It appears that he made up that latter fact. Many places incorrectly say it's 10 cysts minimum infectious dose, but there is about a 2% chance of infection with a single cyst.

Schlimmer: By my 200th quart I was wholly convinced of giardia's absence in backcountry water. How is that possible? How can he concede that tests have proven giardia is found in backcountry water, then conclude it isn't?

Schlimmer: Show me evidence that water is unsafe. No one has been able to produce a shred of it He KNOWS that isn't true. I have personally pointed out to Schlimmer several peer-reviewed scientific papers showing a link between drinking untreated water and giardiasis.

Schlimmer: My research has centered on Giardia, which, as far as I understand, is the only microorganism of concern. Here are some more: Cryptosporidium, Campylobacter, e.coli, norovirus and more. Just yesterday I was talking to a buddy who was fighting fire out west and drank from a spring from which the CDC confirmed he got a case of Campylobacter. He got extremely sick which resulted in the investigation.

Schlimmer: With such self-diagnosis I usually ask "So your doctor told you you had giardiasis," and the answer is invariably "No..." Here's the deal: I don't believe him. It's another made up fact. Let me quote Schlimmer about HIMSELF "In the mid 1990's I was debilitated by giardia, confirmed by my doctor." Me too, three times.

In this poll of 279 people, 61 reported having had giardia. 77% of those were confirmed by Dr. or lab, and 47% of the giardia sufferers were confirmed by lab tests.

This doesn't mean that you should or shouldn't treat your water, but it does mean that much of what Schlimmer has written is untrue.

I am not surprised that the Wilderness Education Association has removed the article from their website.

[Dogwood]

Colter, you're still at this? Why can't you simply concede that MANY reliable sources have differing pts of view on how safe the back country water is and how risky it is to acquire Giardasis? Most info in some sense can be defined egregious to some extent depending on your outlook. Why can't you leave it at NO ONE has it completely right in ALL situations when it comes to back country water safety? And please stop disregarding the mostly valid considerations in articles and documentation like that provided by E. Schlimmer. You are picking and choosing taking a few bits and pieces from articles, studies, and documentation that suit your contention that giardia is rife in the back country water supply and ignoring the rest of the mostly food for thought probably valid information that doesn't suit your premise. I get where you're coming from. I really do and I think it would be nice if articles like How Hearsay and Anecdotal Evidence has Created a False Industry Standard were open for comment in an open forum but isn't that exactly what you've done, bring it out into an open forum to be discussed? You've made your point. As I said before can't you let people decide for themselves about what they will personally do with their back country drinking water based on all the info given and available? I think you need to get outside and hike or do something outdoors. I know I was getting cabin fever about a month back and I definitely needed to get outside. Just my 2 cts my friend.

[Graywolf]

I know backcountry water has been a subject of debate for years and may continue on for many more. My side is that I have backpacked many years and even though I havnt done an actual thru, I do have many AT miles under my feet and the scars to show it. What I have seen and experanced outthere is it seems most of the illness that I have seen, heard or read about has occured in areas that are highly frequented, i.e., roaad crossings, National Parks, shelters in parks, etc, etc. The recent outbreak of the Norvil Virus which from what I gathered from park officials and P.A.T.C maintence crews, started way down in the Smokies and worked its way up, following the thru hiker wave. Once again, this came down to proper backcountry hygene. I have yet to be sick in the backcountry or even get infected with anykind of bug. I have on many occassions drank from suspected water sources. I usually try to get my water from cold flowing streams or springs, away from eddies where flowing water can collect and remain stale. YOU MUST USES COMMON SENSE HERE. However, early this year my girlfriend began to hike with me so to protect her, I bought a Kaladyn Hiker Pro. Not long after in which I found out about the Norvil virus outbreak. I was happy with the purchase and so was she. When I think about that outbreak, it had me to think on the watersupply and how we, as hikers, either make it or break it. Yes, it is true, as many papers claim, that these outbreaks and contamination occurs from novice hikers or just day hikers out for a quick walk in the woods. I see it as experianced hikers, i.e. thrus, veterans, longdistance, that we should educate these "new" hikers on proper backdoor hygene. No, we cant purify the water source, but we can help slow the spread. Giardia, in my opinion, is a real threat out there, but just as with foods you have in your refridgerator, or you buy at the super market, you have to take care of your water. Plain and simple. If your one who is easliy sick on certain types of food, i.e. high acid foods, most likely, Giardia will effect you more as it feeds and relys on the acid in your stomach. Pay attention to your bodies responses on how it reacts to this and you can save your own self from getting sick out there. Heres another idea, if giardia feeds off of acid and relys on it to multiply, then lay off the acid foods. The one post on the town pizza was right on and he didnt even know it. That pizza and beer brews acid in your stomach. Next day your drinking water from a source that may contain giardia. Well, you see the picture here? That little bug is going to thrive in that acid. AND if you already have giardia in your system it will thrive on the pizza you just ate. It just makes sense. Pay attention out there. Use proprer hygene and take care of your body by doing preventive maintence and you will be ok. Filter or no filter, take care of your body, on and off the trail.

Have a nice day. I'm going hiking..

[Colter]

Yes, Dogwood, I'm still at it. And so are you. Welch and Rockwell have been at it far longer than I. "I think you need to go outside" is a cheap shot. In the last few days I have been sleeping on the ground and watching the sun rise and set on Mount Hood and won't be home for weeks. (I was hiking with two buddies a couple days ago. We have six cases of giardia between the three of us. One is a PHD with a degree in biology who said he got lab-confirmed giardia from untreated water in Alaska.)

I agree almost completely with the Centers for Disease Control, The Food and Drug Administration, the Mayo Clinic on this issue. Water vs "hygiene" is a false choice for backcountry health. Claiming that these agencies with access to all the data and with staffs of professional epidemiologists are wrong is an extraordinary claim. The skeptics and those agencies cannot both be right on whether significant numbers of hikers get sick from untreated water.

I've shown specifically why the underlying claims of Rockwell, Welch and Schlimmer are NOT reliable. See my post prior to this one. I have carefully considered many points of view. My conclusions are not based on data mining or wishful thinking.

Water testing, scientific studies and the experience of many hikers like you, Dogwood, definitely proves that MOST water IS perfectly safe to drink. Unfortunately, water testing, scientific studies and the experience of many other hikers proves that backcountry water sometimes ISN'T safe to drink and even an expert cannot tell for sure by looking at it.

What I'm arguing against is foolish statements like "there isn't a shred of evidence that backcountry water is unsafe."

And no, I don't think people should base their decisions on ALL the information out there because that includes false information. I fully support people deciding for themselves. I am strongly against so-called experts presenting misinformation as fact.

The truth isn't in our own personal experience or in strong personal convictions but in sound science supported by good data sensibly interpreted.