is it me or the AMC sometimes acts like it owns the White Mountains?

[JustaTouron]

You dont even need a guidebook for the AT. .

You don't need a guide book for Disney World either. But I found having the unofficial guide to Disney was well worth the cost in the time and money saved based on their advice. I know people who went to Europe without a guidebook, too. Personally, for $16 and a few ounces I would rather have someone list for me my eating, sleeping and water gathering options along with giving me clear advice on how to navigate the tricky sections where "follow the white blazes" might not be enough.

[JustaTouron]

No not entitled but you are misunderstanding the level of detail allowable in AWOL's guide and the Companion. Every mapset for the AT has a guidebook at the level of detail you are wanting. If you put all of that information into one book, it would fill up an extremely large book.

I am not looking for that amount of detail everywhere. My understanding is for 95% of the trail, "follow the white blazes" is more than enough. But IMHO in the particularly tricky sections there ought be more detail.

[atmilkman]

We're headed to the Whites in Oct. and will probably only do very, very limited day hikes. My brother-in-law grew up there. I know I would not need a map whatsoever. But I'm taking one that Sly sent me just for my own education for future hiking trips where I may be alone. I want an aerial picture in my mind of where I'm at. I want to learn. Maps help me learn.

[Trance]

You don't need a guide book for Disney World either. But I found having the unofficial guide to Disney was well worth the cost in the time and money saved based on their advice. I know people who went to Europe without a guidebook, too. Personally, for $16 and a few ounces I would rather have someone list for me my eating, sleeping and water gathering options along with giving me clear advice on how to navigate the tricky sections where "follow the white blazes" might not be enough.

The guidebook is extra weight... and you cant compare the AT to Disney World. Just do some research before you trip, type a few hostel numbers into your phone and where the pickups are(I barely even used hostels). At just about every major road crossing in GA/NC there were business cards and signs telling me about shuttles and food in town. There is water everywhere... carry a nalagene canteen and fill it. You'll be fine for the day.... and it's weight better spent. As for eating. Plan ahead. Carry stuff that doesnt go bad and is light. Dried fruit, peanut butter, freeze dried stuff, snickers, jerky.

Hiking the trail isn't about where the next McDonalds or Econo Lodge is.

Not trying to sound elitest either. Just saying.

[Trance]

Also... the only time I ever had a hard time finding a white blaze, was coming down from Blood Mountain.... for some reason there were like 4 of us confused looking for a blaze... but we backtracked and found it.

[max patch]

One strategy you may want to use re the Whites:

Not going to debate if you need maps or not. You do; thats a given.

Best time to buy maps is during the annual ATC sale from Thanksgiving to Christmas. For just about the cost of maps now, if you wait til the sale you basically get the maps and the State Guidebooks for the same price. Take the NH Guidebook with you and there is no way you'll have an issue.

[Alligator]

I am not looking for that amount of detail everywhere. My understanding is for 95% of the trail, "follow the white blazes" is more than enough. But IMHO in the particularly tricky sections there ought be more detail.

They aren't really set up for that. They are service oriented and set up aiming for a certain amount of parsimony. What happens is you want X to be in the guide, and someone else want's a new town map, and then the book gets bloated. Often times the suggestions for additional material comes from people unwilling to carry a map or the relevant guidebook for that map. Knowing that the trail naming system is different in an area, you might want to have that map guidebook available.

Personally, I only carry portions of AWOL's guide and the Companion for supplementary information like whether tenting is available, where the water is, and how to get around town if I need a resupply. I did a lot of the trail without them though. I just carried the map. Navigation is really easy on the AT.

If there was something real specific though AWOL takes suggestions and you could probably make a suggestion to Sly as well.

[Awol2003]

The inset map that's shown in an earlier post is in the Southbound version of The A.T. Guide. It'll be in next year's Northbound book. My book has a notation throughout the Whites that is intended to help with the intersections. The AT is usually coincident with other named trails, and whenever the AT route changes from one trail to another, there is a notation like this: "Osgood Trail <> Great Gulf Trail". This means that as you travel northbound on the AT, you'll be switching from the Osgood Trail to the Great Gulf Trail. It's really just a hint to watch for a change at that point, and you may confirm the trail names on the signs you pass. The notation may seem cryptic at first glance, but keep in mind that there are more than 20 such transitions in the Whites, so there's not room for full sentences at all of those intersections. I just bought a map of the Whites that has great detail, from the Mountain Wanderer Shop in Lincoln. Shop owner Steve knows his stuff and recommended it. It is "Map Adventures White Mountains Waterfproof Trail Map" and it costs $9.95.

[JustaTouron]

The inset map that's shown in an earlier post is in the Southbound version of The A.T. Guide. It'll be in next year's Northbound book. My book has a notation throughout the Whites that is intended to help with the intersections. The AT is usually coincident with other named trails, and whenever the AT route changes from one trail to another, there is a notation like this: "Osgood Trail <> Great Gulf Trail". This means that as you travel northbound on the AT, you'll be switching from the Osgood Trail to the Great Gulf Trail. It's really just a hint to watch for a change at that point, and you may confirm the trail names on the signs you pass. The notation may seem cryptic at first glance, but keep in mind that there are more than 20 such transitions in the Whites, so there's not room for full sentences at all of those intersections. I just bought a map of the Whites that has great detail, from the Mountain Wanderer Shop in Lincoln. Shop owner Steve knows his stuff and recommended it. It is "Map Adventures White Mountains Waterfproof Trail Map" and it costs $9.95.

Fair enough. I wasn't looking for complete sentences, if Osgood Trail <> Great Gulf Trail is the notation that means that, that is fine.

May I offer TWO suggests neither of which I believe would add a single page in length to the guide: Just add more info to existing lines.

1) if part of the AT uses markings other than white blazes indicated that. I don't know how either those trails are actually marked but something like this Osgood Trail (yellow circles) <> Great Gulf Trail (pink squares). Likewise if side trail uses something other than blue blazes.

2) I know for the purposes of the guides E means right, not east; & W means left, not west. In parts of the trail where things are bit confusing add in the compass number. But don't get rid of the existing standards. Eg. instead of "Great Gulf Trail E" use "Great Gulf Trail E268". Which tells the reader its on your right, but it is actually almost due west. Particularly for directions not exactly on the AT. Such as the direction to a water source from a shelter that is a half mile down a side trail from the trail.

I really doubt either of these suggestions would add more than a 1/100 of a gram of ink to the book, nor a single page. And those who don't need the extra info could easily ignore it.

[Mags]

If navigation is really that much of an issue in the Whites, a $10 map solves the issue.

I do not know what people make an hour, but I know some of you spent more time discussing what should be done than probably what the $10 map is worth.

Perhaps I've been out of the AT scene too long, but to expect a guidebook to have all the information needed to hike a trail is, to me, an unrealistic expectation. As Alligator stated, if a guidebook was to have every suggestion put forth, it would be one bloated book. (Of course, everyone's personal suggestion is obviously the most important and should be included. Natch? )

For the AT, the guidebook is fine for 99% of the time....but not quite there. Take a map when in doubt.

[jeffmeh]

If navigation is really that much of an issue in the Whites, a $10 map solves the issue.

I do not know what people make an hour, but I know some of you spent more time discussing what should be done than probably what the $10 map is worth.

Perhaps I've been out of the AT scene too long, but to expect a guidebook to have all the information needed to hike a trail is, to me, an unrealistic expectation. As Alligator stated, if a guidebook was to have every suggestion put forth, it would be one bloated book. (Of course, everyone's personal suggestion is obviously the most important and should be included. Natch? )

For the AT, the guidebook is fine for 99% of the time....but not quite there. Take a map when in doubt.

Mags, do you have that one? I'm going to check it out when I'm up there this coming week. Some of my paper ones from my latest AMC Guide are getting pretty dog-eared.

[Pedaling Fool]

FWIW, I found the Whites to be confusing at times when I hiked through in '06. The ATC map set didn't work for me there. After I bought a set of AMC maps I was happier. Part of the problem was areas where heavy use had caused lots of paths to be trampled, offering choices that weren't on the maps. (Harriman SP was even worse that way.) My question became not why doesn't the AMC do a better job marking the AT but Why don't the AT maps show the trail names in the Presidentials? If they just printed Crawford Path, etc. on the maps, problem solved.

Who knows, maybe the new maps do.

Seven years ago today, I wrote in my TJ:

"While I was eating lunch at Zealand Falls Hut I was impressed again at how unfriendly the Croos are. I've decided, though, that it's just because they're yankees and don't know any better."

LOL

The reality is, if less-than-ideal trail markings and people who don't smile when you walk in the room are the worst of your problems, you're having a pretty good hike.

Walk on, friends.

My experience in the Whites are just about exactly the same as Marta's. I have no ill will torwards AMC. I will say that they are the only ones on the trail that truly do the maintenance on privies. You can't have maintenance-free privies that compost on their own. I was impressed with their process.

[jbwood5]

I used that map and I bought one for my wife to follow along when I called in updates. It is made of water resistant material and has the shelters, huts, campsites, contours, road crossings, etc. I believe we paid $8.95 each on Amazon shipped (my wife has Prime). Before I left, I outlined the AT in orange highlighter to cut down the searching. All the trails with the associated names are on there. Also, this map has all AMC and all the none AMC campsites as well.

I also just cut out the few needed pages from AWOLs guidebook and stuck those in a ziplock bag to assist with any town services I might need.

[Mags]

Mags, do you have that one? I'm going to check it out when I'm up there this coming week. Some of my paper ones from my latest AMC Guide are getting pretty dog-eared.

I do. I bought it a few years ago when I went backpacking with a buddy in NH during a family visit. Very good quality map. I remember using the AMC maps since that was what was avail. Had them in ziplock bags!
http://www.pmags.com/new-england-rambles

[Slo-go'en]

My brother-in-law grew up there. I know I would not need a map whatsoever. But I'm taking one that Sly sent me just for my own education <SNIP>

Oh, you'll need a map and not just for education. I'll go without a map anywhere else on the AT, but not around here. And that's after having studied maps and hiking in this area for close to 30 years. Ya just can't remember it all. At least not all the details.

[Sly]

Then quite frankly, I think the companion should do a better job. Rather than complain/warn about the Whites is should read something like this:

(I am making up the landmarks, don't use this as a guide

1.2 miles past the route 9 the AT joins the laughing duck trail east for the next 5.8 miles. (most signs for the next 5.8 miles will refer to the smiling duck trail not the AT. You will see both white blazes and yellow circles.

.2 miles after sunset hut the AT splits from laughing duck trail follow the signs and white blazers for the AT.

at mile marker 925 the AT joins the the laughing girl trail west for the next 2.6 miles you won't see many white blazes, follow the pink diamonds.

Rather than whine about the whites at the AMC, the guide books should guide you thru the whites. If they aren't doing that shame on the authors of the guidebooks rather than the AMC.

Neither the Companion nor the AT Guide are meant to be detailed trail guide books. The ATC publishes a series with a book for each state. The Companion is more of a town/resupply and shelter guide. Yes it has data points and lists reliable water sources, but not turn by turn directions like the state guides.

[hikerboy57]

Oh, you'll need a map and not just for education. I'll go without a map anywhere else on the AT, but not around here. And that's after having studied maps and hiking in this area for close to 30 years. Ya just can't remember it all. At least not all the details.

best map for the presis is the bradford washburn one.http://www.amazon.com/Bradford-Washb.../dp/0910146977

[peakbagger]

FYI, if you need to get rescued in the whites and lack an adequate map, it will be cited int he decision to charge for the rescue as its part of the "10 essentials" referenced in the NH hike Safe website.

The Brad Washburn map is a great map of MT washington but only covers a small portion of the whites. There are several maps available that cover the entire forest at a adequate level of detail to follow the trails (not so good for bushwhacking as the Topo is quite dense.

[Bronk]

The trail clubs need to all be tossed out of government land and the AT returned to the citizens. The ATC needs to take over management of the trail in reality as opposed to being a front organization.

History has proven that the best way to protect lands and natural resources is for them to be held in private hands.

[Bronk]

Just curious Moldy...If you do not pay the trail back through donations to a club or volunteer your time doing trail maintenance through a club, how do you pay back the trail? Just curious.

Many do as I do...while hiking the trail if you see something that needs doing, do it. You don't have to join anything or give a dollar to anyone. If something needs fixing, fix it. If something needs cleaned up, clean it. There is a time and a place for organized activity, but if the truth were known I'd bet that the vast majority of trail maintenance happens spontaneously without anyone knowing about it. In the 850 miles I hiked on the AT I saw maintenance happening every day.