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  1. #21
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    if you can get credit for a first thru hike on a trail that is not even 50 percent done then these people are not the first since I am sure many people have walked north to south up and down the east coast for many years before. What really matters is did they do it to get that record? or just to go hiking? keep in mind road walking is way way easier then any mountain trail
    Having spoken to Jo Swanson, I can assure you she did not do it just to get a record. She enjoyed the experience of walking a route that is not finished and less crowded than the AT. The GET really highlights some of the beautiful parts of PA from what I understand. Parts that the AT misses.

    As for road walking..it is killer on the body. Try to avoid it if you can.
    Last edited by Mags; 05-20-2015 at 11:33.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    The GET really highlights some of the beautiful parts of PA from what I understand. Parts that the AT misses.

    “The really beautiful Appalachian ranges in Pennsylvania – Nittany and Jacks and Tussey – stand to the north and west. For various practical and historical reasons, the AT goes nowhere near them.” – Bill Bryson, A Walk in the Woods

  3. #23

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    The GET is only considered 75 % complete because it uses other trails that already existed before it was even thought of. The Allegheny and Tuscarora trail are other trails but are part of it. This trail went from nothing to 50 % overnight just cause they used existing infrastructure. the AT when Shaffer hiked it was built out of dirt roads and nothing in most places and especially now the AT is almost wholly its own path. When I talk about how completed the GET is I mean the parts that are just GET not the other trails they have appropriated.

    As to road walking I thru-hiked the MST that's near 400 miles of road walk and it is much easier for the same reason the PCT is easier than the AT. Roads have a consistent grade and smooth surface to walk. you can travel much faster on road and much farther. it has unique challenges like cars but it does not have to be unshaded. There is a couple hundred of miles of unshaded trail on the PCT and CDT. Road walking is deemed hard on the body cause you walk faster and farther then in the hills. If mountain paths were easier then we would drive cars on rocks and roots not pavement.

    I take nothing away from someone walking a trail or series of trails its a great thing. But trails that are not completed cannot have a record on them. It makes it an unfair comparison between current and future hikers. I also worry about trails that are created in the manor that the GET is being made by taking other trails and replacing them with this bigger entity. It created problems when the AT marched thru the whites and took the trails up there as the AT and they resist that to this day saying that their trails came first. If a trails is already there why not build more trail elsewhere? The AT gave us 2000 miles of new trail to hike the GET will not come close to this, I want more trail not just renamed trails.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    The GET is only considered 75 % complete because it uses other trails that already existed before it was even thought of. The Allegheny and Tuscarora trail are other trails but are part of it. This trail went from nothing to 50 % overnight just cause they used existing infrastructure. the AT when Shaffer hiked it was built out of dirt roads and nothing in most places and especially now the AT is almost wholly its own path. When I talk about how completed the GET is I mean the parts that are just GET not the other trails they have appropriated.

    As to road walking I thru-hiked the MST that's near 400 miles of road walk and it is much easier for the same reason the PCT is easier than the AT. Roads have a consistent grade and smooth surface to walk. you can travel much faster on road and much farther. it has unique challenges like cars but it does not have to be unshaded. There is a couple hundred of miles of unshaded trail on the PCT and CDT. Road walking is deemed hard on the body cause you walk faster and farther then in the hills. If mountain paths were easier then we would drive cars on rocks and roots not pavement.

    I take nothing away from someone walking a trail or series of trails its a great thing. But trails that are not completed cannot have a record on them. It makes it an unfair comparison between current and future hikers. I also worry about trails that are created in the manor that the GET is being made by taking other trails and replacing them with this bigger entity. It created problems when the AT marched thru the whites and took the trails up there as the AT and they resist that to this day saying that their trails came first. If a trails is already there why not build more trail elsewhere? The AT gave us 2000 miles of new trail to hike the GET will not come close to this, I want more trail not just renamed trails.
    The GET Association membership is only the trail groups (individual memberships have been authorized, but has not yet been implemented, pending someone volunteering to be the membership secretary) - there's not new GET that's not part of a local group's trail, whether it was a pre-existing, extended, or new trail in a gap. That's why there are no GET-wide maps and guides, you drill down to the member clubs to get the hikable info (which is inevitably inconsistent). The power relationship, explicitly, is inverted compared to the A.T., so it is an alternative in that respect as well.

    Accordingly the statement "When I talk about how completed the GET is I mean the parts that are just GET not the other trails they have appropriated." is, literally, meaningless, standing at 0%. Which is not to say there hasn't been trail worked on by the member groups since the advent of the GET idea, as there have been numerous extensions and relocations. But those are part of the individual trails just as they are of GET.

    And, also to be clear, I take it that the statement "As to road walking I thru-hiked the MST that's near 400 miles of road walk" refers to the North Carolina Mountains-to-Sea Trail, not to the Pennsylvania Mid State Trail that is the longest single extant component of the GET. That description certainly doesn't fit PA's MST.

  5. #25

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    yes MST IS mountains to sea trail. So the GET is only an idea it doesnt really exist

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    The GET is only considered 75 % complete because it uses other trails that already existed before it was even thought of. The Allegheny and Tuscarora trail are other trails but are part of it. This trail went from nothing to 50 % overnight just cause they used existing infrastructure. the AT when Shaffer hiked it was built out of dirt roads and nothing in most places and especially now the AT is almost wholly its own path. When I talk about how completed the GET is I mean the parts that are just GET not the other trails they have appropriated.

    As to road walking I thru-hiked the MST that's near 400 miles of road walk and it is much easier for the same reason the PCT is easier than the AT. Roads have a consistent grade and smooth surface to walk. you can travel much faster on road and much farther. it has unique challenges like cars but it does not have to be unshaded. There is a couple hundred of miles of unshaded trail on the PCT and CDT. Road walking is deemed hard on the body cause you walk faster and farther then in the hills. If mountain paths were easier then we would drive cars on rocks and roots not pavement.

    I take nothing away from someone walking a trail or series of trails its a great thing. But trails that are not completed cannot have a record on them. It makes it an unfair comparison between current and future hikers. I also worry about trails that are created in the manor that the GET is being made by taking other trails and replacing them with this bigger entity. It created problems when the AT marched thru the whites and took the trails up there as the AT and they resist that to this day saying that their trails came first. If a trails is already there why not build more trail elsewhere? The AT gave us 2000 miles of new trail to hike the GET will not come close to this, I want more trail not just renamed trails.
    You thru-hiked the Mountains to Sea Trail, which makes this discussion much more interesting.

    The GET is more complete than the Mountains to Sea Trail - both by trail miles on the ground and percent of trail completed, yet trails that aren't complete cannot have a record of hikers on them? You also reference Earl Shaffer, who hiked ages before the AT was complete. You either have to accept that people thru-hike trails prior to their "completion," or not. Earl did, and you clearly consider yourself a thru-hiker. (And I think that's a good thing!)

    You also take issue with using existing infrastructure to create a long-distance hiking opportunity. The Mountains to Sea Trail has been created in part by routing it on existing trails because that is how trails begin. From the Mountains To Sea FAQ Page: "Trail planners began by making use of existing trails on public lands and connected them to key natural features across North Carolina." The routes of the Mountains to Sea Trail that I hiked through the Smokies and the Pisgah National Forest pre-dated the Mountains to Sea Trail and didn't put any new trail into the world. Certainly new trail has been created for the Mountains to Sea Trail, same as the GET, yet you say you thru-hiked one but the other doesn't count. Stay away from the North Country Trail, Bigfoot Trail, Continental Divide Trail, etc., if using existing trails to create a longer route is a dealbreaker for you.

    One thing I love about the GET is how it does not have total cohesion and I would guess it never will: trails like the Pinhoti, Pine Mountain, and Mid State retain their previous blazing techniques and character. The GET isn't taking over, it's strengthening these trails- being part of the GET is a feather in their cap. My section of trail didn't exist pre-GET, so southern West Virginia is pretty grateful to be part of it.

    You want more trail; I want more trail. The GET is a great bet to someday channel some traffic off the AT. I'm working to make it happen. If you want more trail, awesome - what are you doing to make it a reality?

  7. #27

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    I proudly walk the white line.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    I proudly walk the white line.
    +1 to that.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    I proudly walk the white line.
    should also add that if you plan on road walkin' get a good pair a shoes, sandals and minimalist ain't gonna cut it and will likely leave ya with some issues.

  10. #30

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    Historically speaking, there were also large chunks of trail down south that already existed that were incorporated into the AT like the old "state line trail" between Devil Fork Gap and Hot Springs. And this was done without any "problems". Not to mention, when the AT was officially dedicated and declared open, it contained long segments of road walking. And, when they created the PCT, it incorporated the old California Hiking and Riding Trail down south, the Muir Trail in the Sierras, and the Cascade Crest Trail up north. Lots of existing trail turned into a longer trail - all without significant issues.
    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

  11. #31
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    T Roads have a consistent grade and smooth surface to walk. you can travel much faster on road and much farther. i.
    My experiences are different. So I am not going to take your statement as Truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    But trails that are not completed cannot have a record on them..

    Acknowledging the first person to walk a route is not a record per se, just an acknowledgement. Otherwise you start getting into pedantic territory. Otherwise the Arizona Trail folks, the CTF, the ATC, etc are just blowing hot air about the acknowledged pioneers of these trails.

    As for creating trails out of nothing, that's definitely more an East Coast style way of thinking. Out west, there are many routes that are frankly comprised of existing trails, jeep roads and even cross country.

    As one short, bald guy from the northeast once said "It's the future of thru-hiking!"

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    yes MST IS mountains to sea trail. So the GET is only an idea it doesnt really exist
    Said out of limited hiking experience?

    Just to make things fun..there are TWO GETs...that apparently really don't exist.

    http://www.simblissity.net/get/
    Last edited by Mags; 05-21-2015 at 13:20.
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  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by full conditions View Post
    Historically speaking, there were also large chunks of trail down south that already existed that were incorporated into the AT like the old "state line trail" between Devil Fork Gap and Hot Springs. And this was done without any "problems". Not to mention, when the AT was officially dedicated and declared open, it contained long segments of road walking. And, when they created the PCT, it incorporated the old California Hiking and Riding Trail down south, the Muir Trail in the Sierras, and the Cascade Crest Trail up north. Lots of existing trail turned into a longer trail - all without significant issues.
    The southern AT had alot of problems as land and previous things were taken from previous owners and controllers.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Just to make things fun..there are TWO GETs...that apparently really don't exist.

    http://www.simblissity.net/get/
    For most PA hikers "GET" is http://www.pahikes.com/trails/golden...n-pennsylvania - although that one might even exist.

  14. #34
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    Even in PA there were questions about which pre-existing trails would become the A.T. and institutional drama. Check out the "prehistory" heading on http://www.satc-hike.org/history.html

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    The southern AT had alot of problems as land and previous things were taken from previous owners and controllers.
    Yeah, but that wasn't your original claim was it? You stated that the AT was built nearly entirely of newly constructed trail and that in those places up north (like the White Mountains) where existing trails were converted to become part of the AT there were significant problems in converting those existing trails into the AT system. I didn't challenge that claim as it seemed pretty trivial (as in: "who cares whose name goes on top of the trail sign?"). Now you've switched arguments and are saying that there were "a lot of problems" down south too as "land and previous things (whatever that means) were taken away from previous owners" (which, by the way runs counter to your claim that the vast majority of the AT was newly constructed trail) . So now, are you saying that because parts of the AT were carved out of existing trail that the AT lacks legitimacy as a long distance trail? Also, do you have any evidence that there were "a lot of problems down south"? or is this just an assertion? I'm definitely confused.
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  16. #36

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    Your correct full conditions it was my original statement but my intent was never that pieced trails are not legitiment. Only that you cannot have a record such as first or fastest on antrail that is not completed right now i could go speed hike the mst and they could add 300 miles to it next year therefore i hold the record and you can never beat it cause your trail is much longer that is my only assertion On that. and this is my only real care about anything in this thread the rest is just responses

    As to problems with land handling during the creation of the AT especially in the south you should check the history on that and how lots of the national forests there were created thru sizure of land by the government thru the tennessee valley authority. It created a lot of unhappiness.The at did use existing trail but as of now i bet those other trails are long gone except the ones up north which is why i used that as an example. As to the western trails having no problems i think you will find that they had large opposition from ranchers and farmers of course it looks like a smooth transition years later. I am not switching claims i am trying to respond to multiple parties about different things which is difficult. The AT may have used existing trails in some places but it was no where near 75 percent other trails Like the GET is. I dont understand the need for the GET over all when that energy could be directed into maintaining the existing trails that dont have enough support.

    I did not mean MST is the mountains to sea trail as thats the only MST just that it was the one i was refering too.

    I know there are multiple GET As well. To me the GET seems like a bid to unite all these smaller trails in an atempt to get federal NST designation which brings money with it.i only have a problem with this because of how i feel trail clubs should be set up its not anything against the GET.



    mags. I am sorry that my hiking resume does not rate having an opinion on this subject. I will not justify where and how much experience i have for any discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    Your correct full conditions it was my original statement but my intent was never that pieced trails are not legitiment. Only that you cannot have a record such as first or fastest on antrail that is not completed
    Have you read any of my responses about the trails that are currently being hiked today (CDT, NC-MST, etc) that are incomplete? Shall none of their end-to-end hikers be considered legitimate because the trails are not 100% complete? I bet there are some Triple Crowners who would be unhappy with that assessment.
    Perhaps you could also refer back to Mags' comment about inaugural hikes not being a "record."

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    To me the GET seems like a bid to unite all these smaller trails in an atempt to get federal NST designation which brings money with it.i only have a problem with this because of how i feel trail clubs should be set up its not anything against the GET.
    You have no reason to believe that the GET is seeking or will ever seek National Scenic Trail designation. Nor that if sought, it would be awarded. This is empty conjecture.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    I dont understand the need for the GET over all when that energy could be directed into maintaining the existing trails that dont have enough support.
    . . .what do you think the GET is doing, if not drumming up support for existing trails? When you volunteer on the GET, you are volunteering on its host trail. All the energy going into the GET is going straight into its host trails.

    As for not understanding the need for the GET, check the crowds on the Appalachian Trail and the explosion of hiking popularity. Simply, the AT (and PCT) are being over-loved and the growth is unsustainable (My own experience: http://www.gethiking.net/2015/03/trail-overlove.html). We need to find ways to educate hikers and divert traffic. More than any other long-distance trail in the east, the GET has the potential to help relieve pressure from the AT. If you love the AT, the GET is a logical trail to support.

  18. #38
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    Wow that is so awesome!!!

  19. #39
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    mags. I am sorry that my hiking resume does not rate having an opinion on this subject. I will not justify where and how much experience i have for any discussion.
    Oy vey...

    I just said my experiences are different. And they are.

    Feel free to express any opinion...does not mean I have to agree with you nor can I express my opposite opinion. And I can also say, in my opinion, your knowledge base sounds limited based on your assertions.

    No different than any other discussion be it my day job (IT), my first love (history) or the outdoors.

    I trust the mechanic who has done 20 timing belt repairs vs the guy who just bought a Chilton manual. Both can have opinions... some are just speaking from a tad more experience. And usually sound it, too.

    Having said..of course..express an opinion.

    Just never mistake your opinion, or mine for that matter, for fact. And be prepared for people to question your opinions, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by SonrisaJo View Post
    You have no reason to believe that the GET is seeking or will ever seek National Scenic Trail designation. Nor that if sought, it would be awarded. This is empty conjecture.

    .
    Indeed. That is what most new routes are doing. They Hayduke Trail, for example, was made a loose route because the originators ran into too much red tape to make an official trail.

    All kidding aside, I suspect we'll see more of those type of routes going forward.


    Now, the REAL question..is the Andrew Sisters Trail really a trail !!?!?!?!
    Last edited by Mags; 05-21-2015 at 20:14.
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  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    Your correct full conditions it was my original statement but my intent was never that pieced trails are not legitiment. Only that you cannot have a record such as first or fastest on antrail that is not completed right now i could go speed hike the mst and they could add 300 miles to it next year therefore i hold the record and you can never beat it cause your trail is much longer that is my only assertion On that. and this is my only real care about anything in this thread the rest is just responses

    As to problems with land handling during the creation of the AT especially in the south you should check the history on that and how lots of the national forests there were created thru sizure of land by the government thru the tennessee valley authority. It created a lot of unhappiness.The at did use existing trail but as of now i bet those other trails are long gone except the ones up north which is why i used that as an example. As to the western trails having no problems i think you will find that they had large opposition from ranchers and farmers of course it looks like a smooth transition years later. I am not switching claims i am trying to respond to multiple parties about different things which is difficult. The AT may have used existing trails in some places but it was no where near 75 percent other trails Like the GET is. I dont understand the need for the GET over all when that energy could be directed into maintaining the existing trails that dont have enough support.

    I did not mean MST is the mountains to sea trail as thats the only MST just that it was the one i was refering too.

    I know there are multiple GET As well. To me the GET seems like a bid to unite all these smaller trails in an atempt to get federal NST designation which brings money with it.i only have a problem with this because of how i feel trail clubs should be set up its not anything against the GET.



    mags. I am sorry that my hiking resume does not rate having an opinion on this subject. I will not justify where and how much experience i have for any discussion.
    Do you have any evidence that the folks at NET are manoeuvering for NST status or is this just another assertion without evidence?
    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

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