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  1. #41
    Registered User soilman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darwin13 View Post
    Perhaps some people, like myself, believe that a 'government' should not and can not own the land because it is no single entity or person's to own. So for those few nomads who enjoy being outside, on the earth or in the sea, and who take care to leave it as they found, believe that the earth is the earth and we are all part of it, and instead of giving money to some abstract idea of authority for an even more obfuscated idea of 'preservation', wish to use the earth as every other animal species on this planet and do their own part to keep it clean.



    Then again, that white bearded man in the sky gave us the universe and government, and capitalism and communism and money and all that other dumb meaningless crap that most people find more important than love and taking care of the earth.
    So are you opposed to private property rights? If there was no government land there would be no AT or probably no parks. How many privately owned parks exist that the public has access?
    More walking, less talking.

  2. #42
    2013 Alleged Thru-Hiker Chuckie V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darwin13 View Post
    Perhaps some people, like myself, believe that a 'government' should not and can not own the land because it is no single entity or person's to own. So for those few nomads who enjoy being outside, on the earth or in the sea, and who take care to leave it as they found, believe that the earth is the earth and we are all part of it, and instead of giving money to some abstract idea of authority for an even more obfuscated idea of 'preservation', wish to use the earth as every other animal species on this planet and do their own part to keep it clean.

    Then again, that white bearded man in the sky gave us the universe and government, and capitalism and communism and money and all that other dumb meaningless crap that most people find more important than love and taking care of the earth.
    I'm with you on this one. Indeed, if it came to it, I would love to spend a night in jail for the adventure of it all (free meal, maybe even a shower). But the chances are, if caught without permit, I'll just be cited. That's 'fine' by me, I'll tell the ranger, in hopes he might laugh. Of course, all he'll be getting from me is a trail-name, as it's not yet law to carry ID on a hike.

    Chris McCandless didn't need a permit to float down the Grand Canyon!

  3. #43

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    And in typical WB fashion this thread about the permit is moving toward a discussion on the function of goverment. Oy vey.

  4. #44
    The Local Johnny Reb
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    I've never been fond of paying to use outdoor areas or having to get some "permit" just to be there.

    ITS THE OUTDOORS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT?

    It's almost like people are trying to act like it is some 5 star dine in eatery.
    -Jason

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by max patch:1404750
    And in typical WB fashion this thread about the permit is moving toward a discussion on the function of goverment. Oy vey.
    Maybe the typical Whiteblaze user understands that the governments becoming more disfunctional each year. Charging for a reservation which will only fund the staff/IT to collect the fee is in my opinion a complete waste.

  6. #46
    Nalgene Ninja flemdawg1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darwin13 View Post
    Perhaps some people, like myself, believe that a 'government' should not and can not own the land because it is no single entity or person's to own. So for those few nomads who enjoy being outside, on the earth or in the sea, and who take care to leave it as they found, believe that the earth is the earth and we are all part of it, and instead of giving money to some abstract idea of authority for an even more obfuscated idea of 'preservation', wish to use the earth as every other animal species on this planet and do their own part to keep it clean.



    Then again, that white bearded man in the sky gave us the universe and government, and capitalism and communism and money and all that other dumb meaningless crap that most people find more important than love and taking care of the earth.
    I suppose you won't mind me helping myself to a Snickers out of your food bag then. A Snickers is just reorganized matter from the Earth after all.

  7. #47
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    well, sgt rock outranks me by 2 pay grades, so i'll have to roll with him .. wait a minute, he's army, not marines! anyway, i agree that it's bull****, some administrator's wet dream; and i also relate to tipi walter's comments in the last post - but then again, how many rangers are going to be out there, and if so, willing to ticket you, in such extreme circumstances? I did a lot of camping in canada several years back, and those people have extracting money down to a science, from the national park fees to the "privatized" provincial parks. i'm just intending to cruise thru and enjoy the experience, paying whatever to whomever i need to (and not doing so when i can get away with it) on the way. happy trails!

  8. #48
    Registered User moytoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sly View Post
    ....but a shuttle around the Smokys will cost $100!
    No need for the shuttle. It's a 100 miles road walk.
    KK4VKZ -SOTA-SUMMITS ON THE AIR-
    SUPPORT LNT

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasty View Post
    Maybe the typical Whiteblaze user understands that the governments becoming more disfunctional each year. Charging for a reservation which will only fund the staff/IT to collect the fee is in my opinion a complete waste.
    Perhaps by paying more it wouldn't be a waste. You could donate more to the NPS.

  10. #50
    Registered User swjohnsey's Avatar
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    I remember when the Federal Income Tax was implemented back in 1913, it was only 1%, only on the rich and only until the WWI debt was paid . . .

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by swjohnsey View Post
    I remember when the Federal Income Tax was implemented back in 1913, it was only 1%, only on the rich and only until the WWI debt was paid . . .
    You remember that? Congratulations on becoming a centenarian! :^)

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    The real money isn't in the fees. The real money is in the fines extracted from backcountry users whose paperwork isn't in order. I bet that if the permit is $20, the fine for not having one is at least $200. And I bet that the part-time enforcers get quotas, at least informally, just like traffic cops. I hope they hire new people to do the job, because the rangers won't put up with it. It's not the job they signed up to do.
    You might want to let the system actually screw up first, before getting too upset. It is usually best to save your outrage and indignation for real problems, rather than hypothetical ones.

  13. #53
    Registered User Wise Old Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soilman View Post
    So are you opposed to private property rights? If there was no government land there would be no AT or probably no parks. How many privately owned parks exist that the public has access?
    TOO MANY TO COUNT.... When you pay off your mortgage.... some day...you will realize when you default on your taxes - you still do not own the land you park your butt on.
    Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    Woo

  14. #54
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffmeh View Post
    I think we are having four different arguments here folks:
    1) Should people have to pay to enter the park?
    2) Are the logistics around payments and permits sufficiently user-friendly?
    3) Are the rules around reservations overly constraining?
    4) Is the payment scheme well-designed (positive cash flow, funds reinvested in the park, better than alternatives)?

    Proceed.
    Great way to sum it up. I'll try and stay out of the weeds and answer these 4 questions:

    1. You do not have to pay to enter GSMNP, that will still be free. I'm personally not opposed to paying for staying in the back country. I already donate money to the park and do volunteer maintenance so I feel like I'm already living up to that.
    2. My personal opinion is no. I think they have made them more user friendly, sort of, for a guy like me that wants to plan a trip for next week and wants to use reservation sites because I now get to avoid making that phone call that I always dread. But for trips where I would avoid all reservation sites it is now harder. For AT hikers they have also made it harder, but I wouldn't say burdensome. I would say, in the thru-hiker case, they have gamed then system to get the maximum reservations they can because it will be easier to get a reservation before you start, and if you bail before you get to the Smokies they get to keep your money. For MST and BMT hikers, it is burdensome if you start somewhere besides the park. Our numbers are so small I think the park service just doesn't care.
    3. Overly? No. More restraining than they use to be, yes. Do they need to be that way? No.
    4. No. But they have bought off on the plan. I was thinking about it today and decided if the Park Service is willing to cut funding for front country campers so we get the wonderful new system for reservations and a couple of rangers that will probably never bother me, who am I to complain. Less maintenance on roads, visitor centers, etc is something they will end up regretting.


    Quote Originally Posted by max patch View Post
    And in typical WB fashion this thread about the permit is moving toward a discussion on the function of goverment. Oy vey.
    Well said Max.
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  15. #55
    Clueless Weekender
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobp View Post
    You might want to let the system actually screw up first, before getting too upset. It is usually best to save your outrage and indignation for real problems, rather than hypothetical ones.
    I'm not upset, just cynical. I'm predicting a screwup that appears to be inherent in the system.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  16. #56
    Registered User Biggie Master's Avatar
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    Like it or not, it's what we have now. Learn the process, follow the rules as close as you possibly can, and enjoy your hike! There are far too many other (and more socially important) issues to get upset about in today's world.
    Biggie

  17. #57
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    National Parks are a huge annoyance, and magnet for the plaid short/RV set.

    Only reason I'd set foot in the Smokies is to get to the other end as quickly as possible.

  18. #58
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    Not wanting to drag this on forever....
    But, whatever happened to the thought about making a reservation and not showing up. I seem to remember some discussion about a penalty for not being at the site you reserved. This was to help avoid the scenario where 1 person books for several and pays for fictious occupants at a site in hopes of keeping people away.

    I actually know of a well-to-do person who would book National Park or National Forest cabins (on the first day you could reserve one), pay for them on the chance that she might stay in one just to guarantee a spot, and then might or might not go. She would either eat the cost of the reservation or pay the cancellation fee if plans changed. The problem I saw was that she would rarely go unless she had a group of folks willing to accompany her. When I questioned her about all these sunk costs, she replied that it was a minor cost compared to the travel to get there. I was a little taken back by this, but then realized that it is probably done all the time. Some people are just selfish and are always trying to make it tough on those that like to follow the rules.

    I guess the same thing could have happened under the old free system (in the GSMNP) and probably did. So.. what if you don't show?

  19. #59

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    Looks like this needs to be said. Permits are going to be required and paid for. Please do not post to WB about intentionally not paying for the permit nor about illegal camping. That would be in violation of the user agreement.
    4. Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts, or involving the use, production and/or distribution of illegal drugs are forbidden.
    Thanks.

    Everybody is subject to the new regulations, thruhikers are getting special consideration in terms of cost, access to shelters, and flexible dates. Thrus may not like it, but you are going to give hikers, and specifically thruhikers, a bad impression by skipping out on the fee.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sly View Post
    So alter your god damn route and stop acting like a cry baby. Just explain it to the ranger, it's not like he's going to throw you in jail..
    Read Kevin's quote below. It's not about going to jail, it's about having to look over your shoulder and not get caught so you won't have to pay the fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    The real money isn't in the fees. The real money is in the fines extracted from backcountry users whose paperwork isn't in order. I bet that if the permit is $20, the fine for not having one is at least $200. And I bet that the part-time enforcers get quotas, at least informally, just like traffic cops. I hope they hire new people to do the job, because the rangers won't put up with it. It's not the job they signed up to do.
    It's an impossible system. Suppose I want to pull a 21 day backpacking trip thru the Park. First, I have to make 3 separate 7 day reservations---that's $30. Then I have to pay $20 for each 7 day segment---that's $60. So, even before leaving I'm out $90. THEN I have to somehow come up with a coherent 21 day trail route with all the appropriate campsites picked beforehand. This is impossible. Suppose I just want to sit put for a couple days but don't know where beforehand at home when planning the trip? Not to mention blizzards or high water or trail illness like the squirts, etc. Where will I be on Day 15? No one knows.

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