Ibuprofen, NSAIDS: For or against?

[AAhiker]

I always take aleve with me when I head out for backpacking because I don't get out enough to keep my shoulders adjusted so I have a tendency to get a tension headache my first night out. Other than that I don't take it muscle soreness. And obviously I only take it if I start to get a headache, I don't pre-medicate.

[Bill Strebler]

... which turns out to smell just like tiger balm but it is liquid. ...
He gave me something that tasted like licorice and it took the rash away in 24 hours.
Of course he speaks no English so, it wasn't easy figuring out what he was giving me.
But, it's one of those places where they have jars with bat wings and leopard penises in them and stuff.

I take the lid off of the Tiger Balm and microwave it briefly sometimes to soften it. Usually I overshoot and it's liquified. Works great, though!

Herbs I'd be more trusting with, I guess, but even if I knew what they were I am sure I would be hesitant to ingest dried animal parts out of a jar- some more than others. I bet I have one of those places near me somewhere, but I haven't found one in years, and not in this area. I'll ask at the local martial arts store.

Arnica grabbed my attention because of the type of plant and it seeming to be something I should have heard of before. But, you know, I've never tried rubbing ibuprofen on my leg!

I used to hear about how every major drug had major side-effects except aspirin, but in the last several years I've heard of several. I know in higher doses aspirin acts as an anti-inflammatory, and I did use it in an extreme case years ago without issue, but I've been afraid to try it again.

I worked with a medical project in a remote foreign village once where nearly everyone suffered from frequent headaches, but similar villages in the area did not have the issue. They were all asking for free ibuprofen, so it was initially thought they were faking it, but we decided in the end it was nutritional. They were hard workers in an arid area, prone to dehydration. I know everybody is aware they need to watch nutrition, especially hydration, on the trail, but it is easy to underestimate your requirements.

[Praha4]

read this NPR story about the Pfizer whistleblower who helped the Feds in their case against Pfizer for fraudulently promoting drugs like Bextra, a popular NSAID at one time, now withdrawn from the market.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009...tells_his.html

[rocketsocks]

read this NPR story about the Pfizer whistleblower who helped the Feds in their case against Pfizer for fraudulently promoting drugs like Bextra, a popular NSAID at one time, now withdrawn from the market.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009...tells_his.html

Didn't know Bextra was pulled. Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

[Wise Old Owl]

I was surprised Equipment Reps were in the surgery room during surgeries.

[Spirit Walker]

When I was backpacking, I took Advil every night in order to sleep. If not, the aches in my feet and legs would keep me awake. I rarely used them during the day, because I figured I wanted to know what hurt and why. At the time, I hadn't heard that NSAIDs can slow healing. My husband uses them a lot, thanks to chronic knee and foot problems. Now that I'm running, I try to avoid pain killers as much as possible. There I have more choice: if I hurt, I don't run, whereas when backpacking I didn't have a choice: I hurt, but I had to keep moving. Seemed like as soon as my body got used to a level of activity, I'd increase the miles, so the hurt would start all over again. If not for the pain killers, we never would have finished any trail.

[4Bears]

Sorry none of those answers totally apply for me. I take Ibuprofin as needed for pain, but not necessarily every day. Sometimes for leg/knee pain other times for back pain, occasionally for a migraine. Funny I don't recall a migrane ever on a hiking trip, hhmmmm, just might be a good theory to check out for several months.

[Karma13]

Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

I used to work for a 'medical information' company that did drug launches and stuff for pharma companies. It was shocking. A drug company would spend literally a few million dollars running a weekend vacation for doctors. The doctors sitting on a panel for a half-hour presentation would get thousands of dollars -- an 'honorarium.' And the guests (who attended free) would have golf outings, scuba diving, appearances by Jay Leno... insane stuff. And it was totally status quo. That company was one company out of hundreds doing the same thing.

[jbwood5]

Didn't know Bextra was pulled. Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

Meloxicam (Generic for Mobic) is a cheap prescription substitute for Bextra, Vioxx, Celebrex, etc. Like all these anti-inflamitories, your body will build up a tolerance to the drug and you ultimately have to continue increasing the dosage to get relief. That is where it becomes dangerous. Chronic inflamation is a serious problem for older folks and can be helped, to some extent, with diet, light exercise, natural herbs, and occasional use of small amounts of NASIDS. I'll try to walk through discomfort and soreness the best I can, but if I have to continue for a few miles by compensating and potentially causing an off-setting injury, I'll take an Ibuprofin. I do believe it slows recovery (from my experience) and it can mask the onset of a serious long term injury, so I must be very careful. Ibuprofin seems to work faster than most NASIDS and my experience with Meloxicam is that it actually takes a couple of days to build up in your body to reduce chronic inflamation. I never had to deal with any of this stuff my younger years.

[rocketsocks]

Meloxicam (Generic for Mobic) is a cheap prescription substitute for Bextra, Vioxx, Celebrex, etc. Like all these anti-inflamitories, your body will build up a tolerance to the drug and you ultimately have to continue increasing the dosage to get relief. That is where it becomes dangerous. Chronic inflamation is a serious problem for older folks and can be helped, to some extent, with diet, light exercise, natural herbs, and occasional use of small amounts of NASIDS. I'll try to walk through discomfort and soreness the best I can, but if I have to continue for a few miles by compensating and potentially causing an off-setting injury, I'll take an Ibuprofin. I do believe it slows recovery (from my experience) and it can mask the onset of a serious long term injury, so I must be very careful. Ibuprofin seems to work faster than most NASIDS and my experience with Meloxicam is that it actually takes a couple of days to build up in your body to reduce chronic inflamation. I never had to deal with any of this stuff my younger years.

Yep, taken mobic too. Your right on the money, NSAIDS take time to build up, and Vit I kicks in right away. I'm not on any Anti inflamatories at the moment, needed to take a break from them, so did my kidneys, But Prednesone ain't no picnic either. People that have autoimmune/inflammatory issues are just in it for the ride, as modern science has yet to figure this one out yet....I feel your pain!


PS, Melxoicam seemed to be better than a topical NSAID I had taken at one time called Voltaren I think it had somethin in it called Diclofenac, another one that causes renal problems....I think they all have bad side effects.....and all the natural stuff dosen't usually have good science behind it or is being blocked by the FDA for reason pretty clear... if ya prescribe to the whole grassy knoll thing, I do on some thing, pharmacology being one...big damn bossiness.

[Kerosene]

I use NSAIDS (Aleve) to try to control swelling in my osteoarthritic knees. It helps for a few days, but I doubt that I'll ever be able to go out for a month straight again unless my upcoming arthroscopic surgery works wonders.

[T-Rx]

Didn't know Bextra was pulled. Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

Rocketsocks,
These type activities have not taken place in the pharma industry for nearly ten years now. The "pretty people" as you call them are just people working hard and trying to make a living in a highly competitive, highly regulated, cut throat business. These "pretty people" are just employees ( messengers), they don't create the message they just do as they are directed and carry the message. Many people including our government have the expectation that medications should all be totally without risks and inexpensive or free. No medication is without risks and limitations and the gov't does little to no Research & Development for new medications. That is left to private industry and the development of a single product can take up to 10-12 years and cost well over a billion $ before you have an opportunity to sell the first pill. You then are faced with a limited time period of usually 6 - 8 years to recoup the investment and make a profit to pay the bills and continue more R&D. All the while you are fighting lawyers trolling the airways looking for opportunities to sue you. In my humble opinion the pharma industry really began to decline when the decision was made that they no longer desired medically trained people and instead opted for the non medically trained people, and when we placed insurance companies instead of physicians in the position of deciding what is best for their patients. People trained as business professionals tend to focus only on bottom line profit & loss versus understanding that all medications no matter how good and beneficial have limitations and are not suitable for every patient with the disease they are designed to help. Insurance companies do not manage healthcare they manage profits versus losses. The pharma industry in the U.S. has saved, prolonged and improved the quality of life for tens of millions of people but they are certainly not without their short comings and faults. If people think the gov't will provide a better alternative than private industry in providing healthcare solutions they are in for a rude awakening! I will now step down off my soapbox and say that I offer the above information with the disclaimer that this is only my opinion as 1 individual with over 30 years experience in the pharma industry and a couple of post grad. advanced degrees in the medical field. With all this being said we still for now have the best healthcare delivery system in the world, however, this may change with more gov't control. There is a reason why people with the financial means still come to the U.S. from all over the world to get their healthcare.

[fredmugs]

I take Vitamin I as a preventive measure. I did stop taking glucosomine / chondroitin years ago for my knees issues. I gain a lot of weight over the winter and lose it during this time of year doing a biggest loser contest which I tend to win. I don't see taking Ibuprofen as a hindrance to working out or losing weight.

[Pedaling Fool]

I used to work for a 'medical information' company that did drug launches and stuff for pharma companies. It was shocking. A drug company would spend literally a few million dollars running a weekend vacation for doctors. The doctors sitting on a panel for a half-hour presentation would get thousands of dollars -- an 'honorarium.' And the guests (who attended free) would have golf outings, scuba diving, appearances by Jay Leno... insane stuff. And it was totally status quo. That company was one company out of hundreds doing the same thing.

Gee, I wonder where they get the money

[garlic08]

I used to work for a 'medical information' company that did drug launches and stuff for pharma companies. It was shocking. A drug company would spend literally a few million dollars running a weekend vacation for doctors. The doctors sitting on a panel for a half-hour presentation would get thousands of dollars -- an 'honorarium.' And the guests (who attended free) would have golf outings, scuba diving, appearances by Jay Leno... insane stuff. And it was totally status quo. That company was one company out of hundreds doing the same thing.

And this is why, when a medical professional tells me to take a pill, I carefully review that advice.

How many people are killed in the US every year by prescription errors?

[rocketsocks]

Rocketsocks,
These type activities have not taken place in the pharma industry for nearly ten years now. The "pretty people" as you call them are just people working hard and trying to make a living in a highly competitive, highly regulated, cut throat business. These "pretty people" are just employees ( messengers), they don't create the message they just do as they are directed and carry the message. Many people including our government have the expectation that medications should all be totally without risks and inexpensive or free. No medication is without risks and limitations and the gov't does little to no Research & Development for new medications. That is left to private industry and the development of a single product can take up to 10-12 years and cost well over a billion $ before you have an opportunity to sell the first pill. You then are faced with a limited time period of usually 6 - 8 years to recoup the investment and make a profit to pay the bills and continue more R&D. All the while you are fighting lawyers trolling the airways looking for opportunities to sue you. In my humble opinion the pharma industry really began to decline when the decision was made that they no longer desired medically trained people and instead opted for the non medically trained people, and when we placed insurance companies instead of physicians in the position of deciding what is best for their patients. People trained as business professionals tend to focus only on bottom line profit & loss versus understanding that all medications no matter how good and beneficial have limitations and are not suitable for every patient with the disease they are designed to help. Insurance companies do not manage healthcare they manage profits versus losses. The pharma industry in the U.S. has saved, prolonged and improved the quality of life for tens of millions of people but they are certainly not without their short comings and faults. If people think the gov't will provide a better alternative than private industry in providing healthcare solutions they are in for a rude awakening! I will now step down off my soapbox and say that I offer the above information with the disclaimer that this is only my opinion as 1 individual with over 30 years experience in the pharma industry and a couple of post grad. advanced degrees in the medical field. With all this being said we still for now have the best healthcare delivery system in the world, however, this may change with more gov't control. There is a reason why people with the financial means still come to the U.S. from all over the world to get their healthcare.

All good points, Let me qualify. 30+ years in and behind the scenes. worked for numerous pharma Co. as a process pipe installer, fitter/welder/plumber often sitting down with engineers and managers to get the job right, and often giving input when needed. have a neighbor who is a chemist and holds a patent on an very early heart med, and he told me that they had to run 110 tons of product before production. my snarky comment about pretty people stems from a front seat of a drama that took place at a remodeling of a ER hospital, this drama went on over a period weeks while a ER nurse struggle with leaving her position of ER nurse to go work as a drug rep, as she was being recruited on that job by another drug rep...she was very good looking. I agree our we have the best med industry in the world, but we have some work to do, starting right at the ground floor boots on the ground workers on up to the top policy makers, and not enough money to fix it all. HS/apprenticeship/and a whole lotta snap. Nice shootin Tex! oops I thought it said Tex, your from Georgia, and still, good shootin

Shoot almost forgot....yep has not happened for some time, drug rep givaways, they use to have the best pens, nicley balanced w/ a great comfortable soft grip. Why did they stop them from these givaways?........

[joshuasdad]

200 mg Vitamin I about 6-8 miles into first day's hike for prevention. Usually a second dose later in the day on long hikes because I need it for inflammation and fever. On second and subsequent days, may take first dose sooner.

[T-Rx]

All good points, Let me qualify. 30+ years in and behind the scenes. worked for numerous pharma Co. as a process pipe installer, fitter/welder/plumber often sitting down with engineers and managers to get the job right, and often giving input when needed. have a neighbor who is a chemist and holds a patent on an very early heart med, and he told me that they had to run 110 tons of product before production. my snarky comment about pretty people stems from a front seat of a drama that took place at a remodeling of a ER hospital, this drama went on over a period weeks while a ER nurse struggle with leaving her position of ER nurse to go work as a drug rep, as she was being recruited on that job by another drug rep...she was very good looking. I agree our we have the best med industry in the world, but we have some work to do, starting right at the ground floor boots on the ground workers on up to the top policy makers, and not enough money to fix it all. HS/apprenticeship/and a whole lotta snap. Nice shootin Tex! oops I thought it said Tex, your from Georgia, and still, good shootin

Shoot almost forgot....yep has not happened for some time, drug rep givaways, they use to have the best pens, nicley balanced w/ a great comfortable soft grip. Why did they stop them from these givaways?

Rocketsocks,
you definitely have some great knowledge of the workings of the pharma industry and sounds like your neighbor also provided some interesting insight. You also point out one of the faults of the industry that I mentioned in my post, and that is the focus on things like appearances rather than knowledge and competency. Unfortunately this problem still persist today and is the source of some of my greatest frustrations with big pharma. As far as the give aways, those stopped with the adoption of the Pharma Guidelines which do not allow reps to provide pens, notepads or anything to physicians. This is another source of great frustration as legislators tell us we cannot provide a physician an ink pen which literally cost only pennies because it may influence their decision making. This is insulting to the integrity of most physicians and infuriating in the sense that these same legislators are taking cash, sports tickets, trips, etc... from lobbyist every day and telling us that they are above being influenced by such activities. A true double standard if there ever was one. Thanks for sharing your background, it gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from. I think we both agree that our healthcare system is great but still flawed in many ways and in my opinion gov't control is going to do nothing but decrease the quality and delivery of healthcare to those in need. The pharma industry has been very good to me over the course of my career but greed and other things have tarnished it from my perspective. But unfortunately I don't think pharma is any different from most of corporate America right now. Profits are necessary to succeed and sustain a business but obscene profits at the expense of your employees and customers is a different matter. Thanks for the great discussion.

[fiddlehead]

Yes, It's not easy to find a doctor you can trust anymore.
The one I use in the states, I have known for 30 years and he is now in his 70's.
Every time I ask him when he is going to retire, he says: What would I do? He loves his job, doesn't need the money, and does it to help people.
The guy I use in Thailand always charges nothing but makes you buy lots of drugs.
I generally throw the drugs away but gladly pay for them as, last time, it was $3 a day for him to clean my wounds and rebandage them. So, I figure he has to make money somehow, right?

But yes, most of them are invited to the greed game by the pharmaceutical companies, aye?

Interesting, I was putting on the arnica yesterday when I friend saw me and asked me about it.
When I told him the wonders it did for me when I was running 100 mile races and then the tests show that it does absolutely nothing, he said: Let me guess who did the tests?
He is from Holland but they have their greedy pharmaceutical companies too.

Beware folks. Who's selling you what and why?

Trust the ancient chinese herbalist with the bat wings more than the drug store pharmacist, unless you know him to be good personally.

[rocketsocks]

Rocketsocks,
you definitely have some great knowledge of the workings of the pharma industry and sounds like your neighbor also provided some interesting insight. You also point out one of the faults of the industry that I mentioned in my post, and that is the focus on things like appearances rather than knowledge and competency. Unfortunately this problem still persist today and is the source of some of my greatest frustrations with big pharma. As far as the give aways, those stopped with the adoption of the Pharma Guidelines which do not allow reps to provide pens, notepads or anything to physicians. This is another source of great frustration as legislators tell us we cannot provide a physician an ink pen which literally cost only pennies because it may influence their decision making. This is insulting to the integrity of most physicians and infuriating in the sense that these same legislators are taking cash, sports tickets, trips, etc... from lobbyist every day and telling us that they are above being influenced by such activities. A true double standard if there ever was one. Thanks for sharing your background, it gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from. I think we both agree that our healthcare system is great but still flawed in many ways and in my opinion gov't control is going to do nothing but decrease the quality and delivery of healthcare to those in need. The pharma industry has been very good to me over the course of my career but greed and other things have tarnished it from my perspective. But unfortunately I don't think pharma is any different from most of corporate America right now. Profits are necessary to succeed and sustain a business but obscene profits at the expense of your employees and customers is a different matter. Thanks for the great discussion.

Agreed bureaucracy and greed touch many industries, and when the folks on the ground go to work we pretty generaly are protective of our sweat and interests, as we should be. It's the fat cats at the top that bring my frustration......and it's difficult to know just exactly who/what that is. I too enjoyed our correspondence. Thanks!