Time to fire AMC

[HeartFire]

it also surprises me that so many yearn for a "wilderness" experience, and then are surprised sometimes when things get a bit hairy. thats what attracts me to these areas to begin with. its not always going to be easy. maybe they can do a better job, but my own experience is theyre pretty on top of things.
.

Hmmm, wilderness experience to me does not necessarily translate into "hairy", and the Whites were a zoo not a wilderness. I've never seem so many out hiking in one place- except perhaps in March at the start of the AT. To me a wilderness experience involves a lot less human contact.

[tdoczi]

Having just hiked Crawford Notch to Pinkham notch, most of the signs (when there were sings) did have the AT on them. When they didn't, someone invariably wrote on the sign which way the AT went. This was the case at the Osgood tent site, Not only did my maps show the correct way to go, the guide book spells out clearly the 'other names of trail' to take, but someone had written on the sign with an arrow "AT north". The next junction was a little more confusing to me as I didn't notice the trail that was the AT (5 way intersection) but my friend did.
Overall, I did not find it confusing in the Whites, I just didn't like it.Attachment 17165Attachment 17166 I also found that trail maintenance was vastly different on the portion of the AT that coincides with the Long Trail, very few blazes, a lot of erosion, immediately after Killington Vt the AT improved. There was absolutely no signage whatsoever at Prospect Rock telling you to take a 90* turn and go up the stairs, the next sign/blaze was at least 1/10 mile up the trail. My map showed the turn (and I met so many hikers this year without maps!). I did mention this to Jeff at the Green Mt. Hiker Hostel, and he recently posted that this has been fixed, a double white blaze has been painted at the intersection.

i actually found incorrect information scratched into the signs in a couple of spots when i was there, particularly around osgood. theres so many trails and junctions there is more than 1 way to go through the area and end up further down the AT. what someone had scratched into the signs was correct in that it got you through the area and back onto the AT, but by using a different combination of trails than what the AT intends you to use. not a big deal to me but i know more than a few people whod be bothered by missing a small aprt of the official route.

but one of my all time fav common wrong turns in the whites is at the brook down the hill from lonesome lake. after crossing, theres a trail that continues away from the brook and one that follows the brook. even the most rudimentary trail map a 5 year old would scratch on the back of a napkin would tell you the one you want is the one that goes away from the brook if you bothered to look at it, but apparently hanging a left and following the trail along side the brook is an incredibly common error. if you make this mistake it isnt the signs fault, sorry.

[hikerboy57]

Hmmm, wilderness experience to me does not necessarily translate into "hairy", and the Whites were a zoo not a wilderness. I've never seem so many out hiking in one place- except perhaps in March at the start of the AT. To me a wilderness experience involves a lot less human contact.

part of AMCs duty is to ensure the crowds dont lead to overerosion. and yeah, I know, it stinks that so many people want to enjoy the same views as you do, the bulk of which dont find it at all "hairy"
but i encourage you to explore other parts of the whites. there are many trails where you wont see more than a few people during the course of a day or two, and i think your opinion of AMC trail maintenance might change.

[Mfrenchy]

My complaint isn't with trail maintenance in The Whites, I thought it was quite good for the traffic it gets(after not so much), but with signage. My hiking partner through The Whites went down the wrong trail that tdoczi mentioned. It had both white and blue blazes on it. One of the spots that got me was after Mitzpah Hut on the way to Lake of the Clouds. There was a four way intersection with a sign indicating where I was supposed to go, but it was pointing in the wrong direction.

[hikerboy57]

My complaint isn't with trail maintenance in The Whites, I thought it was quite good for the traffic it gets(after not so much), but with signage. My hiking partner through The Whites went down the wrong trail that tdoczi mentioned. It had both white and blue blazes on it. One of the spots that got me was after Mitzpah Hut on the way to Lake of the Clouds. There was a four way intersection with a sign indicating where I was supposed to go, but it was pointing in the wrong direction.

frenchy, your complaint is a valid one, and im not sure what the solution is. but the debate began with an attack on AMC, and if you had hiked other portions of the whites, you might come to the conclusion they do a pretty good job. i expect that some of the problems are due to last years storm, and as mentioned earlier, the AMC maintains hundreds of trails besides the AT. ive personally never had a problem, but i cetainly understand how confusing the trail networks are up there.
eliminating the AMC is not a solution however, maybe some other group that can supplement their efforts.
agasin, congrats on a great thru hike, hope it leads to more.

[Mfrenchy]

You are a wise man sir. I like your ideas. Let's make this happen.

[hikerboy57]

You are a wise man sir. I like your ideas. Let's make this happen.

not too wise, but i do try to keep an open mind.
and we do hope you can stay with wb to offer your experience, thats what this is all about.
and if you want to have a laugh or 2 visit the cafe.all are welcome, only one rule, no arguing.just fun.

[Jack Tarlin]

Interesting thread. In my experience, whenever (on the Internet or in person) I encounter someone who has unkind or harsh things to say about how well a particular section of the Trail has been maintained, I always ask the same questions: How much trail maintenance has this person actually done? If they're engaged on a thru-hike or perhaps recently completed one, out of 180-odd days of their hiking vacation, how many days, or even hours, were devoted to Trail work? And even more important, in regards to the section of the trail that is in such allegedly poor condition, how much time has the complainer spent actually working on that section in order to improve things for others? These are all eminently fair questions. And they also tend to end the discussion and complaints.

[tdoczi]

My complaint isn't with trail maintenance in The Whites, I thought it was quite good for the traffic it gets(after not so much), but with signage. My hiking partner through The Whites went down the wrong trail that tdoczi mentioned. It had both white and blue blazes on it. One of the spots that got me was after Mitzpah Hut on the way to Lake of the Clouds. There was a four way intersection with a sign indicating where I was supposed to go, but it was pointing in the wrong direction.

was it this one?Attachment 17170

i dont recall having a problem with it being pointed incorrectly (june '09) HB might be right about it being a storm related issue, or who knows. the thing about that area though.... you can take away all the signs, all the blazes, all the cairns, everything.... just walk uphill towards the mountain i like to call "the one with all the crap on it" as seen in the photo below-

Attachment 17171

thats about the clearest sign youll ever see. i suppose in the rain it wouldnt do you much good, but other than that....

[Wise Old Owl]

.................self edited/

[Mr. Clean]

As someone else stated, the National Forest Service sets the rules in the White Mtns, and the AMC just helps to enforce them. Around the Whites, you cannot blaze in a "Wilderness area", so route finding does become a bit tougher, which is the intent of the wilderness area in the first place. You can like AMC or not, but the truth is that they do an outstanding job of mobilizing a volunteer work force for the hundreds of trails in the Whites, the vast majority of them non-AT trails. Other trails are more popular and get more attention.

Maybe the Forest Service could tweek it's rules for blazing in the Wilderness areas for the AT only for those just passin' thru.

Mr. Clean, maintainer of the Baldface Circle trail (non-AT)

[traildust]

Tom,

Painting blazes in Wilderness areas is at the discretion of the local Forest Supervisor. In Ky in the Clifty Wilderness and the Red River Gorge they are restricted to hand painted only, no plastic blazes on trees or metal blazes nailed to trees. Still folks with maps and guidebooks get lost or misplaced on a regular basis. The idea of more blazes is to me an effort to help a first time hiker or family have an enjoyable experience and return to the forest and not be angry or frustrated by getting misplaced on the trail. Experienced hikers I have met will say there are to many blazes or they will say they don't pay much attention to them.

[Wise Old Owl]

Trail dust - some folks are so green to hiking they could double the blazes and people would still complain.

Example: my mother in law showing up to hike with high heals. You can imagine what I said. I should have told her to stay at the car.

[10-K]

For me, someone who gets confused on direction not infrequently, a lot of it has to do with my state of mind at the time.

If I'm already angry, tired or discombobulated I'm more likely to get confused.

I have often thought of something that upset me so much I was going to report it and then totally forgot about it a few miles later.

[tdoczi]

Tom,

Painting blazes in Wilderness areas is at the discretion of the local Forest Supervisor. In Ky in the Clifty Wilderness and the Red River Gorge they are restricted to hand painted only, no plastic blazes on trees or metal blazes nailed to trees. Still folks with maps and guidebooks get lost or misplaced on a regular basis. The idea of more blazes is to me an effort to help a first time hiker or family have an enjoyable experience and return to the forest and not be angry or frustrated by getting misplaced on the trail. Experienced hikers I have met will say there are to many blazes or they will say they don't pay much attention to them.

and yet its primarily the hikers who have hiked nearly 2000 miles from GA who complain about the lack of blazes in the whites.

[10-K]

Hiking without blazes can indeed be unsettling if you're used to them. Hiking in unblazed areas like the BMT is a good antidote.

[mudhead]

For me, someone who gets confused on direction not infrequently, a lot of it has to do with my state of mind at the time.

If I'm already angry, tired or discombobulated I'm more likely to get confused.

I have often thought of something that upset me so much I was going to report it and then totally forgot about it a few miles later.

Truth in that. I did a ridge walk that I have done before yesterday. Went roaring right on by a turn several times. Last half hour to the trailhead I was having issues going down a trail that I have done 20+ time this Summer. Was tired and the angle of the sun over my shoulder was different than usual.

In a busy area sign posts can get lifted and turned 90*. Seen it. Several trail markers here do not get replaced because people keep stealing the board off the post.

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footsteps.

[Tom Murphy]

Signage and blazes - bringing a map of the white mountain trails and a compass with you would go a long way towards solving any problems

[weary]

Since this is a group that gets government grants and also a tax-exempt status, you darn right I care what they are getting paid. If they were a private corporation, I wouldn't care.

Again, 50 percent of all revenues in the charity going to salaries is a HORRIBLE CHARITY. Three times worse then the United Way. Like I said, hiker biased is the reason why some are justifying those high salaries. But you post that 990 form in any other non-hiking forum, and it would be exposed as a scrooge charity.

The PATC does a much better job with it's money.

And someone said the AMC is labor intensive, I can promise you that those making 100k or more a year aren't doing anything more labor intensive then typing on a keyboard.

Again, don't donate an ounce of time to them, give and donate to other legitimate Appalachian Trail organizations that actually use the money for it's intended purpose, not on bloated salaries in Boston

Some non profits raise money to donate to others. Some raise money to run facilities. AMC is among the latter. The group runs a series of lodges (huts) through the whites, and now in Maine. Maintains hundreds of miles of trails. And have numerous other facilities and campground. Very few employees make executive salaries. Most strike me as underpaid.

BTW, I've been hiking in the Whites for 79 years, since the age of four, if my parents were to be believed. I don't recall that first walk up the Imp. But I've even been lost in the Whites. It was about the age of 14. I was had climbed Washington with a buddy, and persuaded him to take a short cut down to the Dolly Copp, National Forest campground, where we were staying. We had run into blowdowns from a late 30's hurricane and we had to climb over giant spruce felled by the wind and lost the trail. My buddy broke out in a rash. It was his first serious hike and he was scared. The rash disappeared when we finally reached the Great Gulf Trail again. I didn't complain about the AMC. As kids we thought of AMC as those Boston elitists. But I knew we would eventually find the trail again. I had been wandering the hills and rocks by myself for years.

I even eventually joined AMC. It was two decades later. I was working as a newspaper reporter, and found that writing about the Maine mountains was more fun than technical stories about boring plans for new power plants and oil refineries near Maine's deep ports. An AMC member stopped by the newspaper one day and argued that if I was going to write about mountains I should be a member of the group that did the most for northeast mountains. I joined. A few years later the AMC gave me a free lifetime membership. It seems they were impressed with a series of stories I had written that claimed Maine still owned 400,000 acres of public land that it had preserved 150 years earlier and then forgotten about.

Those forgotten lands are now managed as the Bigelow and Mahoosuc Preserves and numerous other parcels, including a big chunk near the AT in the 100-mile-wilderness, so called. AMC also now owns 70,000 acres in the "wilderness." I served for a while as part of the initial AMC Maine planning committee. I no longer paid dues, but I've been a volunteer for most of the two decades since retiring, for both AMC and MATC. Both are great organizations, and don't deserve the ignorant criticism I sometimes read on White Blaze.
amc

[Moose2001]

I no longer paid dues, but I've been a volunteer for most of the two decades since retiring, for both AMC and MATC. Both are great organizations, and don't deserve the ignorant criticism I sometimes read on White Blaze.
amc

Well said Weary. Thanks for your feedback.