Battle brewing over JFK 50 race use of Appalachian Trail - The Herald-Mail

[Tipi Walter]

I love trail running, but I don't think having 2000 runners blasting by is the kind of experience people rightly expect when they invest the time and effort to hike a section of the AT.

Yup, agree with this.

Trail running is a gateway drug to driving ATVs.

Trail runners are like dayhikers---Day Use Only and In And Out. Gotta get a "nature fix" but never for an overnight.

You don't see the difference Really? One person attempts to hike the trail every several years against a clock, opposed to 2,000 runners on the trail at once trying to beat one another. Big difference. If I were Pam Underhill I won't let any more than 25 at a time never mind 1500-2000.

The general LNT guideline is no groups over 25.

LNT guidelines pretty much nix this marathon plan. So, can we stick with LNT??

I hope Underhill does not give in on this issue. Let's face it. The AT is a hiking trail. Not a race coarse. The orginizers just want to advertise that the race takes place on the AT. I'm sure their are plenty of places on other trails to move it to. I can just imagine what it would be like to be thru-hiking and have to give the trail up for 1,500 runners for over a period of 5 to 6 hours.
Like to see ALDHA get in back of this bad use of the trail.

Hiking trail, not a race course. Or a horse trail. Or an ATV trail. Or a dirt bike trail.

[Captain Blue]

What do you mean when you say "it doesn't hurt the trail"? Are you referring to visible physical damage?

[Donde]

Most Ultras are on trail and everywhere else it isn't problem. Take a look at Badwater, or Palladoro. Also 2k people over 13 miles some if it on the part of C&O that is the AT in 4 hours tops is not a big deal. Also they won't be trashing any shelters, starting any fires, or many other high impact activities. The trail should be shared with as many people as it reasonably can be. I'm willing to bet the JFK 50 in all 50 years of it's existence has had less negative impact on the AT in Washington County MD then one year's trail days has on Damascus VA.

[Tipi Walter]

Most Ultras are on trail and everywhere else it isn't problem. Take a look at Badwater, or Palladoro. Also 2k people over 13 miles some if it on the part of C&O that is the AT in 4 hours tops is not a big deal. Also they won't be trashing any shelters, starting any fires, or many other high impact activities. The trail should be shared with as many people as it reasonably can be. I'm willing to bet the JFK 50 in all 50 years of it's existence has had less negative impact on the AT in Washington County MD then one year's trail days has on Damascus VA.

What about the LNT discussion? As in limiting group size?? Thankfully I don't need the AT to get my nature fix, but if 2,000 racers passed my by on the dozens of trails I do backpack, I'd be a mite perturbed. For Odin's sake, we already have thousands of screaming motorcyclists racing below the trail on local roads destroying the silence, now we need thousands of on-foot racers on the trail, too?

Your comment, "the trail should be shared with as many people as it reasonably can be" sounds very strange. It's a mindset I can't fathom, like "All humans need access to the trail---so let's pave it for the wheelchairs and clear it for the horseback riders and the ATV riders". With a protjected 450,000,000 Americans by 2050, I say we should make the trail more difficult to access instead of easier. And keep group sizes small.

[peakbagger]

If they could just impose a requirement of carry in carry out. I have worked on and followed routes that had recently been run and they are littered with electrolyte and quick energy packs. They are usually foil pouches that the runner rips open, squeezes and then throws on the ground. I expect this could be managed or some group could be held responsible to do a good sweep of the course after the fact, but unless its in writing I expect it wouldnt get done.

There was a commericial ultraman/woman event that used part of the AT in the Bigelow's in Maine about 15 years ago, it was being filmed and the combination of the media, support teams and runners that didnt have a clue caused a lot of hate and discontent in the area.

[Donde]

"reasonably" being the operative word. Reasonably implying within constraints preventing harm to the trail. This event is on the trail for several hours a year, during a time in which there are few if any multi day hikers on that section. One of the least ecologically sensitive sections of the AT. Now if you happen to be hiking that section during the race (which by the way is well publicized much like road closures for road races) then you may be annoyed but the trail is not harmed. By your logic we need to find a way to discourage the March and Spring NOBO's. There were more than 25 at Hawk Mtn the first night of my through. How about if we just ban everyone from the trail except you and those you deem acceptable. The crux of your point is about you being bothered not about the trail. Motorcycles don't hurt the trail, neither do trail runners. It's the AT, there are roads all around it, it goes through towns, it is not the wilderness. It is a footpath, for people to travel on, by foot. A scout troop is okay cause they are walking but a running group isn't cause they are going too fast?

[Tipi Walter]

"reasonably" being the operative word. Reasonably implying within constraints preventing harm to the trail. This event is on the trail for several hours a year, during a time in which there are few if any multi day hikers on that section. One of the least ecologically sensitive sections of the AT. Now if you happen to be hiking that section during the race (which by the way is well publicized much like road closures for road races) then you may be annoyed but the trail is not harmed. By your logic we need to find a way to discourage the March and Spring NOBO's.

Naw, we just need to discourage using the trail for an organized sporting event. Trickle down abuse---if you allow one group to race it then why not let all other marathon groups use it? Was it ever designed as a Field and Track arena?

[rotorbrent]

Just what we need 14 miles of race trash on the trail 100-200 real hikers on the trail that day can screw up the race so much they will not come back.Or is the AT going to throw out hikers so the runners can have It.

[Tinker]

What do you mean when you say "it doesn't hurt the trail"? Are you referring to visible physical damage?

I'm assuming that the person to whom you're addressing the question is referring to the physical damage. I doubt "The Trail" will be affected emotionally or mentally....................

Hitting the "Reply With Quote" icon should avoid future ribbing by me (no promises, though).

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Seriously - pick a steep, rutted road up a big mountain and call it an "ultra" whatever foot race instead. The idea of needing a trail in the woods to serve as a foot racing course is unnecessary, imo. The NAME Appalachian Trail is the draw to this race, and,


The REAL issue is not about this race format, or this year's event, it's about:
1) expanding existing participant limits, and,
2) whether or not the Appalachian Trail NEEDS to be the location.

A foot race on the AT is over romanticized, sort of like a thruhike.

[Tipi Walter]

Just what we need 14 miles of race trash on the trail 100-200 real hikers on the trail that day can screw up the race so much they will not come back.Or is the AT going to throw out hikers so the runners can have It.

Race Day could be organized in every state, with marathons run along numerous sections of the AT. During the event, the trail could be closed to all hikers. I like your other idea better: get a couple hundred hikers on the route and shut down the race.

[Donde]

Rotorbent, this event has already happened 49 times without causing you a problem and now you read a few paragraphs and want to get worked up about it. The JFK 50 has always promoted the ATC and encouraged volunteering with the ATC and the C&O Trust, this organinzation has been promoting good stewardship of the trail for 5 decades. The AT is managed by the NPS for American people not just for high and mighty hikers. Is there no trash left behind? Of course not. However this is a trail ultra your not talking about the tens of thousands of paper cups etc. You see at a road race. The logistics setup is very different and much lower impact. There are more beer cans left on trail by thru-hikers than GU packets by the JFK 50. Also what constitutes a "real hiker"? I have done a thru and I run Marathons and Ultras, am I "real hiker"? My mother has done 50-60 miles of the AT with me in 2 different sections is she a "real hiker"? What about people who park their car in the Lot and walk up to the Dragon's tooth and then walk back. Hikers, especially thru hikers, need to get over themselves. This trail was not designed for thru hiking. It was designed for people to enjoy getting out and traveling under there own power.

[Sly]

Rotorbent, this event has already happened 49 times without causing you a problem and now you read a few paragraphs and want to get worked up about it.

Correction: It hasn't never been run 50 times with 2000 entries. Sometimes you need to place limits, otherwise there could be a time when numbers could reach 3 or 4 or more K.

[Sly]

i ran this race 20 years ago. it doesn't hurt the trail

How many runners 20 years ago? No where close to 2000 if my guess.

[canoehead]

Maybe they can do some trail maintenance in the areas used by them. But let them use it.

[Sly]

LOne Wolf is generally right when he's being serious. He's right about this.

Right about what? His is only an opinion. He ran it once 20 years ago and sure as **** didn't walk the trail again right after to see any effects.

[Sly]

By your logic we need to find a way to discourage the March and Spring NOBO's. There were more than 25 at Hawk Mtn the first night of my through.

Oh wow, twenty-five people!!!

Hmmm... that's 1975 less than what's planned for the marathon.

How can you even compared the two?? There are less thru-hikers per year leaving Springer and Katahdin combined, over several months, than what's planned for this race.

[hikerboy57]

there are millions of vistiors to the AT every year, the 2000+ thruhikers are just a small portion of people who use the trail. I dont see an issue, unless the local trail maintainers see visible damage from this particular "overuse', and I would expect if that becomes the caes, the race can be relocated to another section that can handle the traffic. as someone above mentioned, we could use as many allies as we can get to help protect the trail, and I think the ultra marathoners would be a good source of support.as far as invading your wilderness experience, ive come across plenty of noisy hikers many times, and 2 years ago in the middle of the mahoosucs, thinking we were miles from nowhere, there were about 15 teenage girls from some camp that, while we were huffing and puffing up the trail, they were giggling and singing like they were in the Sound of Music. any time I find someone enjoying their outdoor ecxperience, I sometimes get annoyes when its "interfering" with my nature experience, then think again that they are all potential allies.

[Donde]

"guess" Exactly. In 1973 the field consisted of 1,724 competitors. I think that is the largest yet. Also are any of you familiar with that section that time of year? It's pretty lightly used. All of you are whining about stuff you know nothing about. If you want to have an opinion on this come out and do an Ultra first. Better yet let the residents of Washington County have their way instead of some whiny people all over the country talking about something that has never and likely will never affect them. How do you sit in your computer chair in where ever and think you own this trail. There are similar races all over the country all year and they have not been a problem. Ultras are not the same as marathons, they are not organized or supported the same way at all. So if any of you want to know *** your talking about I'll see you out there 11/17/12. That is if you can make a qualifying time ( qual time waived with a DD-214).

[Sly]

There are more beer cans left on trail by thru-hikers than GU packets by the JFK 50.

LOL... and you know this little factoid how?

I don't know any thru-hikers that left their beer cans behind. If you saw it, you should have said something immediately, or carried out their trash.

[Donde]

Yeah cause Thru hikers always practice perfect LNT. Are you kidding me? Go ask a ridge runner about that one. I've seen your glorious italicized THRUS roll into a shelter in SNP drop pack and head for the camp store only to return with cases of beer, and I have packed out beer cans after reading the log entry about the great time had the day before. Why you don't you ask anyone in Damascus, or Gary Poteet, Bob Peoples, or the Pastor at any church hostel, about how good Thrus are at following rules and cleaning up after themselves. Once again Thru hikers need to get over themselves. Now as we veer off topic into circle talk I will withdraw from this thread, but the invitation to run remains open.