Protein on the trail

[q-tip]

I use TVP-Textured Vegtable Protein--3.5 oz =48 grams of protein. one pound lasts 6 days approx.

[Papa D]

I use TVP-Textured Vegtable Protein--3.5 oz =48 grams of protein. one pound lasts 6 days approx.

+1 to this - I also eat a bunch of Seitan Bars - brand name Primal Strips - they are vegetarian jerky (very good) and fantastic foods re-fried bean mix with instant rice and ((pirated) taco bell sauce) -- if you are coming out of a town for re-supply and have fuel (or hostel with a stove) hard boiled eggs are heavy but can be consumed on the first day out - also, almond butter, soy wonder, (and, of course) peanut butter are good protein sources.

[Odd Man Out]

I agree that protein doesn't need to be a primary concern. I am guessing that the concern comes from loss of muscle mass some may experience during a long distance hike. But this probably happens due to a lack of energy so the best solution is to get more energy in the diet and this is most effectively done with more carbs and fats. As has been pointed out it is hard to eat a diet that is really protein deficient, unless you are just eating plain sugar and vegetable oil. Whole grains, nuts, cheese, meat, eggs, dairy (in one form or another) are rich in protein, readily available, and pretty common in most hikers' diets.

Here are a few basics to keep in mind. There are three kinds of macronutrients: carbohydrates, fats, proteins. These are the molecules you use for catabolism (break down to give you energy) and anabolism (put together to make your body).

Fats by far have the most energy available per gram, but they can only be used for catabolism. Therefore you can't live on just fat, but if you need a lot of energy (such as doing a 2000 mile hike), this is the best way to get energy in a lightweight, non perishable package. Carbs and proteins can be catabolized to make energy (but less energy per gram than fats). However, they can also be used for anabolism. So you must have at least one of these. Carbs have an advantage in that your body must also have a supply of sugar (when your blood sugar level drops, your brain shuts off).

If you are not eating enough carbs, you must use protein to make carbs (since your can't make carbs from fats). This is fairly inefficient as it takes energy to turn the protein into carbs plus you must also remove the nitrogen atoms from the protein and eliminate the nitrogen waste as urea. This is the basis for weight loss in an Atkins diet. It still works if you provide enough energy from fat, which is the basis of the pemmican.

However, if you don't provide enough energy in the form of fat or sugar from carbs, you suffer from Rabbit Starvation (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation). This is because there is a limit to the rate at which your body can process the nitrogen waste. So if you try to live on protein only, you starve to death (no matter how much you eat) since you can't catabolize protein fast enough to provide all your energy needs, plus the extra energy needed to turn the protein into sugar. So the advice for long distance hikers to eat a balanced diet (fats, carbs, and protein), with more emphasis on fats and less on protein makes good sense based on the basics of metabolism described above. The fats provide the energy you need, the carbs keep your blood sugar normal without having to make it from protein.

So what do you need the protein for? Remember that proteins are made from 20 amino acids. Half are essential (you must get from your diet) and half are not essential (you can make yourself from the other food you eat). Proteins are used for lots of things in your body (hair, skin, tendons, bone, enzymes, etc.) In addition, the most important thing that proteins have that carbs and fats don't is that nitrogen atom. These are needed for several other important molecules, such as nucleic acids (DNA/RNA), neurotransmitters, and heme (as in hemoglobin).

However, it is important to understand that your metabolism functions on a condition knows as steady state, where most molecules are recycled and reused. So when a protein in your body is broken down, you don't need protein in your diet to replace it. It is broken down into individual amino acids and most can be reused to make new protein. To keep the whole thing going you need energy which comes from catabolism: food and oxygen make carbon dioxide and water. You only need other nutrients to replace the stuff that is not recycled and eliminated as waste. If you think about it, you body right now is not significantly different than it was 24 hours ago because of this steady state.

So in a balanced diet, you do not need protein for catabolism or making carbs, and most of your amino acids are recycled, so the amount of protein you need in the diet is minimal. To keep at steady state, you would only need to eat enough protein to replace the nitrogen atoms lost in your urine and feces. And if you are producing urea, it is because you have eaten excess protein that you don't need, so you catabolize the protein for energy and eliminate the excess nitrogen as waste.

But the recycling isn't 100% efficient, so there will always be some protein needed to replace nitrogen waste. As it turns out, your body isn't particularly good at recycling heme waste, which mostly comes from red blood cells. The yellow pigment in urine and the brown color of feces are produced from waste heme (mostly from hemoglobin in red blood cells). Each of these molecules has four nitrogen atoms, so that's a fairly constant nitrogen loss that must be replaced by protein in the diet.

One final observation: Jesus said that "man does not live by bread alone". His choice of words reflects an interesting understanding of biochemistry. To say "man does not live by protein alone" or "man does not live by olive oil alone" would simply be biochemically accurate statements and thus have no spiritual significance. But of course he was teaching that people also need spiritual nourishment and this point is made because bread is one food you CAN live on (physically), especially bread from 2000 years ago that would have been made from whole grain and yeast (giving a balance of carbs, protein, fat, and vitamins).

[leaftye]

I agree that protein doesn't need to be a primary concern. I am guessing that the concern comes from loss of muscle mass some may experience during a long distance hike.

Creatine has been shown in studies to great reduce muscle wasting. I bet it would minimize muscle loss while long distance hiking too. I'm not going to try it though. Hiking is expensive enough, and eating enough is already very challenging without adding creatine to my diet. Even if I were willing to try it, I'd get the rest of my diet nailed down near perfectly. As is, I'm already deficient by a couple thousand calories a day on full hiking days, and that's with eating 4500 calories a day.

[RORY CALHOUN]

Well done, Leaftye. I've also always heard that if you get enough calories in any reasonable trail diet (including Snickers bars--yes, you, Mags), you'll get enough protein. And as for the Atkins diet, I also used to think it was a fad until someone very close to me, also a very active thru hiker and athlete, was diagnosed as a Type I diabetic. She is doing very well and staying very strong and active with a very low carb diet.

Protein from meat is way over-rated, I think. I haven't eaten meat in decades, and that includes a career as a firefighter and three thru hikes. When people ask, and they always do, how I get my protein, I respond, "How do horses, elephants, or rhinos get protein? They're large, strong animals and they don't eat meat." It's not a perfect analogy, but it does illustrate that protein exists in food other than meat.

When advice-givers start quoting USDA recommendations, and they always do, I reflect on how well the USDA has done in setting dietary guidelines in my lifetime. When I was a child, there was one diabetic in my school....

well supersize me! he ate McDonalds for 30 days and became an Indie Movie Sensation, haha, anyways, liked your post, what are things you eat, as i prepare for a 3-15-12 launch and read blogs i see their is zero consensus on anything really, & that will be part of the joy, "pick your poison". just collecting opinions but yours cuisine may be substantial. Thanks.

[RORY CALHOUN]

Many exaggerate the need for a lot of protein. You can meet the real needs without a great deal of thought. On long backpacking trips, I carry powdered milk and add it to most of my meals. It goes into my coffee and cereal every morning, and most soups and whatever concoctions I cook for supper. Other easily carried and relatively light weight protein sources are peanuts, dried pea soups, cheese, eggs, summer sausage, Snickers ....

also liked your post, how about powdered eggs, isn't that a real food? i am thinking about a dessert sized baggie (pre-mixed and packed) with 1/3 cup dry oatmeal, about 7 almonds pecans and walnuts, protein powder, powdered milk and eggs and what else BOOM, walk eat go- that is a riff on Julia Roberts eat pray love, ok not a bery good riff, but hey, Tina Fey had to start someplace (as a sketch writer for Loren Michaels...Bossypants...haha

[garlic08]

well supersize me! he ate McDonalds for 30 days and became an Indie Movie Sensation, haha, anyways, liked your post, what are things you eat, as i prepare for a 3-15-12 launch and read blogs i see their is zero consensus on anything really, & that will be part of the joy, "pick your poison". just collecting opinions but yours cuisine may be substantial. Thanks.

I do OK on protein with a trail diet heavy in oats, tree nuts, cheese, and peanut butter. In towns I eat legumes, dark leafy greens, eggs, more cheese and dairy. I like Weary's powdered milk suggestion and buy it when I see it, but that's not always available and I do OK without it on the trail. I did not lose weight on my AT thru, so it worked for me. I keep telling myself I'll eat meat if I crave it, but that hasn't happened. I've heard some vegetarian ultra-athletes feel that craving and it sound like it's best for them to satisfy it.

I also just read "Bossypants" and enjoyed it. Don't quit your day job yet! Welcome to Whiteblaze, though.

[Wise Old Owl]

Protein is important, but also very important, especially with respect to "energy" are foods packed with carbs, such as rice, potatoes and other types of those "evil" starchy foods. Too much protein and not enough carbs will leave you empty; that's why the Atkins diet is just another BS fad diet and does not work for athletes - AKA, people that walk every day for ~ 1/2 a year.

John apparently you personally never needed to loose weight. Atkins IS NOT A FAD DIET.... miss information is a abound. Examples today would be the Mennonites and the Amish that have a High Protein and low Carb with large amount of greens. Locally the 2 million of them have less than 2 percent over BMI index. Most modern diets are based on examples of 200 years ago.... I don't remember anyone being fat in the Nasa 1969's tv as we landed on the moon.... Fast food is the culprit - sodium, carbs, french fries, rice etc. And more importantly Regulation on the food industry that manufactures food like Swanson. Some recently college educated Nutritionists are - worse than snake oil salesman.

[Wise Old Owl]

Not to contradict myself - weight loss and good diet is important - completing the trail requires a totally different take on nutrition to complete the trail - a small group of people here have adopted the junk food eatery as the way to go while hiking the AT...

There is an example of this - Personally hike some 20 miles in one day and then suck up some useless carbs of liquid bread. Yuengling Beer Lager after the hike. 2 16 oz beer is equal to one liquid dinner.. apparently this is priceless.


My point is there are things you need to loose weight and a different take is needed for any trail. l

And let me add John that if we both missed explained and we are on the same page, my apologies. I went back and reread the rest of the thread (again) and what you wrote.....

[Papa D]

also liked your post, how about powdered eggs, isn't that a real food? i am thinking about a dessert sized baggie (pre-mixed and packed) with 1/3 cup dry oatmeal, about 7 almonds pecans and walnuts, protein powder, powdered milk and eggs and what else BOOM, walk eat go- that is a riff on Julia Roberts eat pray love, ok not a bery good riff, but hey, Tina Fey had to start someplace (as a sketch writer for Loren Michaels...Bossypants...haha

I don't really like eating eggs that much but I have spent some time looking for good powdered eggs - mainly for my summer camp backpacking programs - when I thru-hiked, we used "Nifda" brand powdered eggs -- everything seems to have gone the way of mandatory refrigeration and extra packaging - eggs in jugs. I do carry powdered milk. Where do you get powdered eggs these days?

[Wise Old Owl]

Papa D - Powered eggs are best used in recipe's for the trail... Mixes in dried products or FBC. I would take a personal pass and Hard boil an egg and tape a salt packet to the side for breakfast other wise.... to answer your question - Mountain House.

[Papa D]

Papa D - Powered eggs are best used in recipe's for the trail... Mixes in dried products or FBC. I would take a personal pass and Hard boil an egg and tape a salt packet to the side for breakfast other wise.... to answer your question - Mountain House.

yeah - I know you can get the Mountain House omelets and such - -and I occasionally hard boil some eggs if I think about it but -- I'm talking regular old grocery store powdered eggs - hey, a google search revealed this:

http://www.amazon.com/Powdered-Whole.../dp/B0006ZN4XE

[Wise Old Owl]

Ok.......

[LDog]

I've read good reviews of Ova Easy
http://www.nutriom.com/

[Pedaling Fool]

I'm going to backtrack a little, if I may, from what I've said about nutritional needs. As for the Atkins diet I'm a little jaded, only because of the BS infomercials I've seen, but putting that aside, maybe there is some truth behind some of the principles.

But I'm backtracking, because this thread I started, during which time I remember reading of the diet of the Tarahumara Indians; I would never of guessed that one could exhibit the endurance of those people on the diet they eat. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...41#post1109241

So maybe we should give the body another look in the light of what others have accomplished. Perhaps the body is much more adaptable than what we know. After all, look at how important milk is to many of us. However, we had to acclimate ourselve to drink it and there are peoples around the world who can't process the stuff because they've never been exposed. http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/june/lactose.htm But then you got the Maasai people of East Africa with this diet:

"Traditionally, the Maasai diet consisted of meat, milk, and blood from cattle. An ILCA study (Nestel 1989) states: “Today, the staple diet of the Maasai consists of cow's milk and maize-meal. The former is largely drunk fresh or in sweet tea and the latter is used to make a liquid or solid porridge. The solid porridge is known as ugali and is eaten with milk; unlike the liquid porridge, ugali is not prepared with milk. Meat, although an important food, is consumed irregularly and cannot be classified as a staple food. Animal fats or butter are used in cooking, primarily of porridge, maize, and beans. Butter is also an important infant food. Blood is rarely drunk."

Sometimes I really have to remind myself to keep an open mind. So I'm going to plea extreme ignorance in this subject.

John apparently you personally never needed to loose weight. Atkins IS NOT A FAD DIET.... miss information is a abound. Examples today would be the Mennonites and the Amish that have a High Protein and low Carb with large amount of greens. Locally the 2 million of them have less than 2 percent over BMI index. Most modern diets are based on examples of 200 years ago.... I don't remember anyone being fat in the Nasa 1969's tv as we landed on the moon.... Fast food is the culprit - sodium, carbs, french fries, rice etc. And more importantly Regulation on the food industry that manufactures food like Swanson. Some recently college educated Nutritionists are - worse than snake oil salesman.

You didn't read my post on the same page as the one you quoted? (posted above).

But in general I still call BS on the Atkins Diet. And yes, I did have to lose weight before, that's why I hiked in 2006, for a complete body overhaul, because I was getting fat, very fat, but in my case it had less to do with the foods I was eating vs. just the amounts.

I still eat tons of potatoes, I even eat potato chips for breakfast (no kidding) to give me the energy I need since I ride a bike EVERYWHERE, EVERY DAY. And I run a lot and do a lot of weight training. I need carbs. And yes I keep the weight off. But as I hinted in the above post, I admit that my diet, although it works for me, can possibly be changed, radically, and not affect my lifestyle. That's why I tend to think diet is overrated, maybe the body can adapt to virtually any diet, given time.

I still think people are fat, not so much of because what they eat, but how much. And I don't exercise to keep the fat off; I eat less to keep the fat off, exercise is to keep my body strong, there's a difference.

[Pedaling Fool]

John apparently you personally never needed to loose weight. Atkins IS NOT A FAD DIET.... miss information is a abound. Examples today would be the Mennonites and the Amish that have a High Protein and low Carb with large amount of greens. Locally the 2 million of them have less than 2 percent over BMI index. Most modern diets are based on examples of 200 years ago.... I don't remember anyone being fat in the Nasa 1969's tv as we landed on the moon.... Fast food is the culprit - sodium, carbs, french fries, rice etc. And more importantly Regulation on the food industry that manufactures food like Swanson. Some recently college educated Nutritionists are - worse than snake oil salesman.

Not to contradict myself - weight loss and good diet is important - completing the trail requires a totally different take on nutrition to complete the trail - a small group of people here have adopted the junk food eatery as the way to go while hiking the AT...

There is an example of this - Personally hike some 20 miles in one day and then suck up some useless carbs of liquid bread. Yuengling Beer Lager after the hike. 2 16 oz beer is equal to one liquid dinner.. apparently this is priceless.


My point is there are things you need to loose weight and a different take is needed for any trail. l

And let me add John that if we both missed explained and we are on the same page, my apologies. I went back and reread the rest of the thread (again) and what you wrote.....

And I just read this...BTW, don't apology to me, it's just the internet I don't take anything personal.

But...one other little pet p...we've become a society of "victims" and the more these "victims" have a place to cry, they'll continue to be stunted in their own pathetic world. Mc D's isn't to blame, it is the individual. Until we realize that there will be an endless line of lawsuits, regulations and stupid laws that remove blame from the individual.

[lemon b]

I use cheese, and black beans and white rice, lentals use up too much fuel.