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  1. #101
    Yellow Jacket
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzierzak View Post
    PowerMax vs other canisters -
    PowerMax is a mix of gases and may not need the strength of a steel can. Just a guess.
    PowerMax canisters actually have more propane in them than other canisters. And it is the propane that "boils" at such a low temperature.

    As mentioned above, I suspect the reason the cans are different is more of a marketing thing for Coleman than anything else. And there is no reason for existing canister manufactures to switch to a new style as the startup cost for a new can material would be prohibitive. And possibly, an AL can in the shape of the current canisters would not be strong enough to support a stove and a full 2-4qt pot. Whereas the PowerMax canisters are not required to support anything.
    Yellow Jacket -- Words of Wisdom (tm) go here.

  2. #102
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    I just re-read this whole thread, which is now four and a half years old.

    There's been a lot of carping talk elsewhere about Whiteblaze, the "good old days", over-Moderation, and other petty complaints.

    I just want to say that I thought this article (and the discussion it provoked) is superb, and is a really good example of how positive and helpful this website can be.

    I hope this serves as an example to others......instead of taking time and bandwidth to whine about the perceived problems with the website, why not do something constructive and add something positive to the website, like the
    post/article that started this thread.

    Seems to me THAT's the way to make Whiteblaze better.

  3. #103
    Saw Man tuswm's Avatar
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    I was just ing boiling springs PA, there was a small fly fishing shop there. They had only the small canisters and I think they were charging like 10 or 12 bucks but they did have canisters.

  4. #104

    Default Butane Stove Canisters Now "Hazardous Material" - not cheaply shipped

    https://www.outdoorindustry.org/pdf/...elWN081209.pdf

    The HazMat exemption for the 4 ounce butane cans, especially those by MSR, has been suspended as of last year. DOT previously allowed a "consumer commodity" exemption for these containers.

    The details result from a hiker who illegally shipped some canisters by air to Alaska. They were caught and a DOT inspector called in.

    The following is taken from the above link.

    Shipping some isobutane/propane fuel canisters direct to consumers has gotten much more expensive after DOT concluded the industry is not complying with the agency’s 2002 interpretation of hazmat regulations. In an October, 2002 interpretation letter to a manager at Cascade Design’s Mountain Safety Research (MSR), DOT said that “a mixture of liquefied compressed gases in a container of not more than four (4) fluid ounces capacity” could be exempted from hazardous material packaging and labeling requirements except when shipped by air, in part because the small canisters qualified as a “consumer commodity.” This allowed fuel shipped in such containers to be reclassified as “other regulated material –domestic,” or OSM-D, which in turn allowed FedEx, UPS and other carriers to waive hazmat fees.

    When a consumer tried to ship a canister containing 4 fluid ounces of gas to Alaska by air earlier this year, however, a DOT inspector measured the canister and found it could accommodate 6 fluid ounces. Manufacturers say they’ve been shipping 4 fluid ounces of gas in containers of at least 6 fluid ounces to allow room for the gas to expand, but DOT has determined the larger canisters are not OSM-D compliant.

    DOT has since inspected several manufacturers and retailers and ordered them to start labeling the canisters as a hazardous material. That will add $22.50 in hazmat fees to every case of 4-fluid-ounce MSR IsoPro canisters shipped through FedEx or UPS, according to Cascade Designs. That’s the same fee the small package delivery services charge the company for a case of 8-fluid-ounce IsoPro canisters, which never had ORM-D status.
    Now, shipping of 4 ounce, 12 ounce and 8 ounce canisters of propane/butane are all HazMat shipments with extra costs and limitations.

    UPS told me that if I wanted to ship them to myself along the trail, the HazMat fees would apply and I would need to be a certified HazMat shipper by UPS training - which costs $500.

    For some long distance hikers, it may be time to evaluate the selection of stove fuel to something else, or to more carefully plan fuel consumption/carrying to get from retail outlet to retail outlet.

  5. #105
    Registered User jhensley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    https://www.outdoorindustry.org/pdf/...elWN081209.pdf

    For some long distance hikers, it may be time to evaluate the selection of stove fuel to something else, or to more carefully plan fuel consumption/carrying to get from retail outlet to retail outlet.
    Agreed. Nothing too dangerous about isopropyl or HEET, you wouldn't have to ship it as you can get it widely available and can avoid the negative consequences of what appear to be ever changing regulations associated with shipping canister fuels.

  6. #106

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    From Zenstoves.net

    Cold Weather Operation




    One of the biggest limitation of canister stoves is their decreased performance or complete failure at low temperatures. This is due to the lack of effective gas pressure once the temperature of the canister drops below the boiling point of the fuel. When fuel fails to build up enough pressure to effectively feed your stove, your stove slows and eventually stops. To compound matters, running a stove releases gases from a canister, which cause more of the liquid fuel to vaporize, which requires energy that in turn drops the temperature of the canister even more. The longer you run your stove the colder the canister becomes and you may need intermittent rewarming or continuous heating to keep your canister going. See The Nature and Behaviour of Mixtures of Fuels by Roger Caffin for more information on gas dynamics.

    Propane boils at -43° F (-40° C)

    Butane boiling at 31° F (0.5° C)

    Isobutane boils at 11° F (-12° C)

    One way to improve performance is to use fuels that have lower boiling points. Pure propane is the best commonly used liquefied gas for cold weather but requires a heavy duty steel canister which isn't suitable for most backpacking needs. Butane can be stored in much thinner walled cans, making it more suited for backpacking but butane doesn't work in subfreezing temperatures. Often isobutane and/or propane are added to butane cans to allow the stove to get started in subfreezing temperatures. Unfortunately, in very low temperatures, the propane and/or isobutane will boil off and leave the majority of the butane fuel unusable at those temperatures.

    Current generation canisters contain a mix of Propane and Isobutane, (plus sometimes regular Butane.) The problem with regular butane is that it boils at -0.5 degrees C. So if the ambient temp is below freezing, your fuel would not vaporize. Isobutane is better in that it has a boiling point of -11.7 degrees C. (Propane boils at -42.1 degrees C.) So, why not just use Propane in the canisters?? Well, Propane has a higher vapor pressure, so requires a stronger (heavier!) can -- like the giant cans used for car camping, or your backyard BBQ. So, in order to keep the small canisters light, yet still work at low temperatures, manufactures use the Propane/Iso blend.

    This blend approach is not completely trouble free, though. The different gases in the canister boil off at different rates. So, as you run the stove, the Propane is used up first -- leaving behind the (iso)butane. This explains why partially used canisters are particularly bad in cold weather -- there is little propane left in them.

    To make things worse, the fuel in a regular canister vaporizes inside the canister as the stove is run. This causes evaporative cooling of the fuel, lowering it's temperature. So even if you start off with a warm canister, after running it for several minutes, it will cool and it's output will drop off or stop. That's why canisters are problematic for things like snow melting where 30-40 minute boils are needed.

    Ok, so what about the liquid feed canisters:

    1) Since the fuel evaporation occurs outside the canister in a preheat tube prior to combustion in the stove, canister cooling is minimized during prolonged usage. This allows them to provide consistent output over long burn times.

    2) The liquid fuel bled from the canister always contains close to the original mix of propane/butane. Because the fuel does not evaporate in the canister, the propane doesn't get used up first. This makes liquid feed canisters perform more consistently over the life of the canister.

    [If you just invert a regular canister to get liquid feed, the final 10g or so of fuel won't come out in liquid form and operation reverts more or less to regular gas-feed operation for the last few minutes of fuel use.]

    You may want to set your fuel on an insulating platform to protect it from snow or ice.

    Another way to improve fuel performance in the cold is to get the fuel temperature up. There are several ways to to this and some are quite dangerous if done inappropriately.

    Safe methods of warming fuel canisters

    keep it in your jacket to warm it up

    sleep with it in your bag

    place or dip it in warm water

    pour a bit of hot water on it

    urinate on your stove

    chemical hand-warmers may help a little

    Risky methods of warming fuel canisters - using heat from a stove - overzealousness and carelessness can lead to an explosion - do so at your own risk

    use a carefully ventilated windscreen (if you do too good of a job insulating the canister, it may explode)

    use a heat exchanger (flattened copper wire with one end wrapped around the canister once and with the other end protruding up into or near the flame)

    warm a canister by placing it near the stove (too close for too long and you might end up dead or without one of your hands)

    Note - most canisters are designed with concave bottom that will pop outwards before complete canister rupture if over pressurized. The valves themselves may also bleed off overly pressurized gasses unless a stove or lantern is securely attached to it.


    Another method to maximize fuel pressures is to feed your stove with liquid instead of gas fuel. This will allow the vapor pressure of the more volatile fuels to force mixed liquid fuel into your stove instead of just burning up first and leaving unusable butane. There will also be less phase change from liquid to gas in the canister resulting in less canister cooling. This concept is used with the Coleman PowerMax fuel canisters, which have a weighted diptube to pick up the liquid at the bottom of the can and not the gas at the top.

    Coleman® Exponent® Powermax® Fuel Adapter


    With some setups, canisters may be used upside down. This would force out liquid instead of gas into your fuel line, similar to running PowerMax canisters. Coleman in fact makes an adapter to run screw on canister upside down.

    Fits the 9770 series Coleman® Exponent® Fyrestorm™ series stoves

    * Legs swing-out from adapter to form stable platform for inverted canister.

    * Unique liquid-withdrawal method for threaded canister fuels produces high-performance in cold weather or high-altitudes.

    The Primus Himalaya manual states that one safe cold environment trick is to:

    "Turn down the control valve as low as possible. Now hold the gas cartridge and turn it upside down slowly and very carefully. While doing so, you must never lift the cartridge higher than the stove itself to avoid a sudden burst of flames."


    When asked via email if the MSR Windpro could operate with the canister upside down, a tech at MSR replied:

    "Yes, you can turn the canister upside down when using the WindPro but you would want to use the same precautions stated in the Primus manual."

    Since the Primus Himalaya EasyFuel, MSR WindPro, MSR Rapidfire, and Snowpeak GigaPower BF Stove [GS-300A] have similar designs with a hose connection and heated vaporizer tube, they should be able to run PowerMax canisters (you may need an adapter) or regular fuel canisters upside down - do so at your own risk.

    There are several remote fueled canister stoves, such as the Markill Spider, that don't have vaporizer tubes (generators). This feature is desirable to vaporize the fuel prior to it exiting the jet. Running a canister upside down without a vaporizer tube isn't recommended and can be dangerous.

    Gauging the Contents of a Gas Cartridge

    You can float both an empty canister and a full canister in water and mark the water lines. Transfer the full and empty lines to the canister you take to the field. As the canister empties you can measure the remaining fuel level by floating it in water and noting where the water line is relative to the full line and empty lines.
    “Only two things are infinite; The universe and human stupidity,
    And I’m starting to wonder about the universe.”
    Albert Einstein

  7. #107

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    USPS page 342 Gases (Hazard Class 2)

    342 Gases (Hazard Class 2)


    342.1 Definition

    Hazard Class 2 consists of three divisions:

    1. Division 2.1, Flammable Gases. A material that is a gas at 68° F (20° C) or less and 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) of pressure. Flammable gases also include materials that have a boiling point of 68° F (20° C) or less at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) and that are ignitable at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) when in a mixture of 13 percent or less by volume with air or that have a flammable range at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) with air of at least 12 percent regardless of the lower limit. These conditions must be established in accordance with ASTM E681–85, Standard Test Method for Concentration Limits of Flammability of Chemicals, or other approved equivalent method. The flammability of aerosols must be determined using the tests specified in 49 CFR 173.306(i).
    2. Division 2.2, Nonflammable, Nontoxic Gases. A material that does not meet the definition of Division 2.1 or 2.3 and exerts in its packaging an absolute pressure of 40.6 psia (280 kPa) or greater at 68° F (20° C).
    3. Division 2.3, Toxic Gases. A material that is poisonous by inhalation and is a gas at 68° F (20° C) or less and a pressure of 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa), or a material that has a boiling point of 68° F (20° C) or less at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa).

    342.2 Mailability

    The following conditions apply to the mailing of gases:

    1. International Mail. All gases are prohibited.
    2. Domestic Mail via Air Transportation. Flammable gases in Division 2.1 and toxic gases in Division 2.3 are prohibited. Nonflammable gases in Division 2.2 are generally permitted if the material can qualify as an ORM–D material and meet the quantity limitations and packaging requirements in 342.3 and 342.4.
    3. Domestic Mail via Surface Transportation. Toxic gases in Division 2.3 are prohibited. Flammable gases in Division 2.1 and nonflammable gases in Division 2.2 are generally permitted if the material can qualify as an ORM–D material and meet the quantity limitations and packaging requirements in 342.3 and 342.4.

    342.21 Nonmailable Gases

    When any gas that is nonmailable is discovered in the mailstream, the procedures in DM–601–05–1, Hazardous Materials Acceptance and Handling, must be followed if the materials present an immediate threat to persons or property. The procedures in POM 139.118 are followed when there is no immediate threat to persons or property.
    The following are some specific types of nonmailable gases:

    1. Cigarette Lighters (NA1226). Generally, lighters charged with fuel and having an ignition system or any similar heating, lighting, or ignition device are a Class 3 flammable liquid and are nonmailable. However, if an approval number is obtained from DOT, consideration for mailing may be requested from the PCSC manager under the provisions in 343.25 and DMM 601.10.13.4.
    2. Oxygen, Refrigerated Liquid. Liquid oxygen (UN1073) is prohibited from mailing under any circumstances.
    3. Fire Extinguishers. Fire extinguishers (UN0275, UN0276, UN0323, or UN0381) that contain propellant explosives are prohibited from mailing.Note: See 342.22 for mailable types of fire extinguishers.
    4. Toxic Gases. All Division 2.3 toxic gases are prohibited from mailing.

    342.22 Mailable Gases

    The following are examples of mailable gases:

    1. Butane. Butane (UN1011) and Receptacles, small (UN2037) with butane or butane mixtures are Division 2.1 flammable gases. Butane gases that can qualify as ORM–D materials are acceptable only in domestic mail via surface transportation when properly prepared under 342.3 and Packaging Instruction 2A in Appendix C.
    2. Oxygen, Compressed. Oxygen (UN1072) is a Division 2.2 nonflammable gas and is acceptable in domestic mail only if it can be reclassified as an ORM–D material. The requirements in 342.3 and Packaging Instruction 2B in Appendix C must be followed.
    3. Propane. Propane is a Division 2.1 flammable gas and is acceptable in domestic mail via surface transportation only if it can be reclassified as an ORM–D material. The requirements in 342.3 and Packaging Instruction 2A in Appendix C must be followed. Propane is nonmailable in domestic mail via air transportation.
    4. Fire Extinguishers.Extinguishers that contain a Division 2.2 nonflammable compressed gas and are assigned UN1044 are mailable if they do not contain methyl bromide gas mixtures and the contents are held in DOT specification 2P or 2Q containers. Only one extinguisher per mailpiece is permitted, and the compressed gas contained within the fire extinguisher must be nonflammable, nonpoisonous, or noncorrosive as required under 49 CFR 173.309(a). The requirements in Packaging Instruction 2B in Appendix C must be followed.Note: Fire extinguishers assigned UN1774 are mailable as Class 8 corrosives subject to the limitations for corrosives in 348 and DMM 601.10.19.
    5. Empty Compressed Gas Containers. Empty used containers of compressed gas are mailable subject to the same restrictions that applied when the container was filled (because residual amounts of the hazardous material might remain present). Empty, unused (i.e., new) containers are mailable without restriction.
    6. Aerosol Paint Products. Aerosol paint products that are defined as flammable compressed gases are acceptable in the domestic mail via surface transportation only if they can qualify as ORM–D materials and meet the quantity limitations and applicable packaging requirements in 342.3, 342.4, and DMM 601.10.12.
    7. Other Mailable Gases. Materials whose contents are under pressure, such as carbonated beverages, biological/medical products, cosmetics, foodstuffs and soaps, electronic tubes, and audible fire alarm systems (except for any that may contain poisonous gases or others that may be specifically excluded by 49 CFR 173.306), are acceptable in the domestic mail as follows:
      1. Carbonated Beverages. These items are not regulated as hazardous materials and are acceptable without restriction. Carbonated beverages must be properly packaged under DMM 601.1–8.
      2. Biological Products or Medical Preparations. A product or preparation in a nonrefillable metal primary receptacle charged with a nonflammable solution (containing a biological product or a medical preparation that heat could deteriorate) may be accepted for domestic surface mail only, provided the conditions in Packaging Instruction 2F in Appendix C are followed.
      3. Foodstuffs and Soaps. These materials are mailable provided the conditions in Packaging Instruction 2D in Appendix C are met.
      4. Electronic Tubes. These materials are mailable without restriction if the volume is 30 cubic inches or less and the tube is charged with gas to a pressure of 35 psig or less. Such tubes must be packed in a strong outer container and meet the general packaging requirements in DMM 601.1–8.
      5. Audible Fire Alarm Systems. An audible fire alarm system powered by a compressed gas is acceptable in the domestic mail via surface transportation provided the conditions in Packaging Instruction 2E in Appendix C are followed.


    342.3 Packaging

    Mailable compressed gases must be packaged to protect valves and fittings and to ensure integrity of the primary receptacle during transport. Containers must use recessed valves, screw thread caps, tap closures, or other means to prevent accidental discharge.
    The following conditions apply:

    1. Nonmetal Containers. A mailable gas is acceptable in an other–than–metal primary receptacle if the water capacity is 4 fluid ounces (7.22 cubic inches) or less. Packaging Instruction 2A or 2B, as applicable, must be followed.
    2. Metal Containers. Mailable nonflammable and flammable compressed gases are acceptable in metal primary receptacles thathave a water capacity up to 33.8 fluid ounces (1 liter or 61.0 cubic inches). The liquid content of the material and the gas must not completely fill the primary receptacle at 130° F (55° C). Additionally, the following apply:
      1. A DOT 2P container must be used if the internal pressure is from 140 psig to 160 psig at 130° F (55° C).
      2. A DOT 2Q container must be used if the pressure is from 161 psig to 180 psig at 130° F (55° C).
      3. A container with an internal pressure over 180 psig at 130° F (55° C) is prohibited from mailing.
      4. Packaging Instruction 2A or 2B, as applicable, must be followed.

    3. Flammable Gases. A mailable flammable compressed gas is restricted to 4 fluid ounces in a nonmetal primary receptacle or 33.8 fluid ounces (1 liter) in a metal primary receptacle per mailpiece Packaging Instruction 2A must be followed.
    4. Nonflammable Gases. A mailable nonflammable gas is permitted in individual 4 fluid ounce nonmetal primary receptacles or 33.8 fluid ounce (1 liter) metal primary receptacles. Multiple primary receptacles may be securely packed within a single, strong outer packaging. Each mailpiece must not exceed a total weight of 25 pounds. Packaging Instruction 2B must be followed.

    342.4 Marking and Documentation

    For air transportation, parcels containing mailable gases must be plainly and durably marked on the address side with “ORM–D AIR” immediately following or below the proper shipping name (e.g., Consumer Commodity). A properly completed shipper’s declaration for dangerous goods prepared in triplicate must be affixed to the outside of the mailpiece.
    For surface transportation, parcels containing mailable gases must be plainly and durably marked on the address side with “Surface Only” or “Surface Mail Only” and “ORM–D,” immediately following or below the proper shipping name (e.g., Consumer Commodity). A shipper’s declaration for dangerous goods is not required for mailable gases sent via surface transportation.
    342.5 Mailability Rulings

    In addition to the information required in 215.2 and DMM 601.10.6, requests for mailability rulings on gases and products containing compressed gases need to include the following information:

    1. Documentation indicating whether or not the contents are a flammable mixture when dispersed.
    2. The internal pressure within the primary receptacle at 70° F (21° C) and 130° F (55° C).
    3. Documentation as to whether or not the liquid contents completely fill the container at 70° F (21° C) and 130° F (55° C).
    4. The bursting strength of the primary receptacle.
    5. The capacity of the primary receptacle and the number of primary receptacles proposed to be packed within a single mailpiece.
    6. The design methods intended to prevent accidental discharge of the contents.

  8. #108

    Default

    Rocketman is confusing several shipping regulations above.

    Yes, DOT has made changes to the shipping industry about the "4 oz" canisters.

    Yes, UPS and FedEx require lots of forms, trainig, etc to ship hazardous materials.

    BUT, the US Postal Service still allows us to ship small quantities - Consumer Commodity - by surface mail. The postal regulations as posted above, allow us to ship 2 100 gram canisters or 1 220 gram canister per package. The canisters should be securely packed and the package must be under 25 lbs and labelled "Consumer Commodity" and "Ground Only".

    Many postal employees will tell you that fuel cannot be shipped. Print a copy of
    http://www.gottawalk.com/shipping_fuel.htm and take it to the post office with your box containing fuel. It has worked for many hikers.

  9. #109

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    OMG thanks. I will do just that. awesome.

  10. #110
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    I'm wondering if I can legally ship a single CV206 butane canister following the instructions in this thread. All I can find on the specifications is 190 G. These are pretty small butane canisters and they are the old puncture type from the 1980's. I've got the stove (works great) and just bought 15 canisters off EBay, which by the way were shipped priority mail with no Haz-Mat or surface label (bad on the shipper, but he probably didn't know better). I am almost certain that no store or outfitter along the AT carries these anymore. Too bad, because they are light and easy to use and still widely used in Europe.

    I'd appreciate any input on shipping these GD.

  11. #111
    Registered User bunk's Avatar
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    Does anybody know the approximate current cost of 8oz canisters along the trail? I'm trying to figure out if the savings are worth the pain of including them in my mail drops. Leaving for Katahdin on June 18.

  12. #112
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    Default Actual weights of Canister VS Liquid Fuel stoves...

    You know somebody correct me if I am wrong however when I do ALL the logical math there is basically Minimal, as in 1/2 OZ or less savings in weight with a canister. Take a Soto at 2.6 OZ and a can and a half of fuel at 12.7 plus 8.7 for the half can and you get 24 ounces. My dragonfly with an 11 oz can filled and wind screens weighs in at 32 OZ. So you're net savings is 8 OZ, less wind screens only save 6 OZ. NOW if you buy a simmerlite MSR you shave 5.5 oz off so your gain here is 1/2 OZ. Also the more disposable canisters you need to carry the more dead weight you have so the equation gets worse with more canisters. For Bug out I think the Dragonfly is optimal but before I'd buy into iso/propane I'd get a Simmerlite. I mean aren't you always carrying at least 1 and a half cans?

  13. #113
    LT '79; AT '73-'14 in sections; Donating Member Kerosene's Avatar
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    I've never carried extra fuel cans, but I can see where one might want to if their re-supply stops don't work out just right. Then again, you could have that issue with any fuel type.

    To keep it apples-to-apples, you really need to include windscreens for each setup, but some setups might weigh less than others. Also, white gas provides more BTUs per ounce of fuel, so you really need to measure against water boiled, not how much fuel or canisters you're carrying.

    I've used canisters, alcohol, and white gas stoves, but I keep coming back to my canister for section hikes given the simplicity and speed. I'd probably go with an alcohol stove if I was out for more than a few weeks, and white gas might be a candidate for winter hiking. I always hated the way white gas would seem to "leak" out of my fuel bottle or stove and smell up my pack. My biggest problem with a canister is trying to figure how many boils are left and where to pack the canister itself.
    GA←↕→ME: 1973 to 2014

  14. #114
    Yellow Jacket
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    Default Article: Canister stove/fuel FAQ

    Yellow Jacket -- Words of Wisdom (tm) go here.

  15. #115
    Registered User Seven mile's Avatar
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    This Link worked for the Post Office pub52
    http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_005.htm

  16. #116
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    Thanks for the links, people. Thats what I was reading all this for. I sure do appreciate it.
    "Something hidden. Go and find it. Go, and look behind the Ranges. Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you . . . Go!" (Rudyard Kipling)
    From SunnyWalker, SOBO CDT hiker starting June 2014.
    Please visit: SunnyWalker.Net

  17. #117

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    You don't mention the very real danger a canister can be. I've seen one explode and will no longer use one myself. If the canister in question had been on top of a picnic with a normal load of hikers sitting around when it exploded, quite a few people would have been hurt.

  18. #118
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    I was trying to find information on this! However, I think I will probably just buy as a I go.

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