Bathing in a stream

[Jack Tarlin]

Interesting thread. A few quick thoughts:

1. Soap doesn't belong in backcountry streams, brooks, ponds. Period. I don't care if it's allegedly 'biodegradable." You should do your washing---your pots, your hair, your ass---well away from, and certainly not IN drinking water sources.

2. You should avoid either bathing, swimming, or soaking various parts of your body in water that people are likely to be drinking from. When in doubt, either move well downstream from where people are drawing their water, or wait for a better occasion.

3. People are gonna swim in lakes. They've done this for millenia. Be aware that people are gonna swim in lakes, and treat your water accodingly if you're gonna drink lake water.

[stupe]

All soap is bad for stream critters. And you're gonna be sweaty and dirty in an hour, anyway. Why bother washing?

[grrickar]

Why bother washing?

Call me anal, but I sleep better when I'm clean. I can handle being filthy when I'm doing something, but there has to be some cleanup before bed, else I will not sleep as well. I plan to sponge bathe with a bandana and some Dr. Bronner's and water (well away from water sources) when I'm hiking. At least my sleeping bag will remain somewhat clean inside, and I'll feel more relaxed at the end of the day.

[weary]

I've washed up many a time in a river, both with bio soap and with the sand on the bottom de river. Will most likely do it again.

Soap is soap. All soap is biodegradeable. All ordinary laundry and dishwashing detergents these days are also.

Weary

[Connie]

It is the high phosphate detergents that kill everything important in a septic tank for the septic tank to do the job, a place where the living micro-organisms do all the work of digesting and breaking down "the poo".

Living streams are living ecosystems, so-called "riparian habitat".

Kill one part of the habitat, the other living organisms and "higher" living species depend on, and you get a dead stream. I think streams are more important than rivers, in terms of the amount of "life support" they provide.

Jaybird: "My opinion of human intelligence continues to sink. In almost three completions (and countless gear lists) I have never seen anyone else carry a collapsible bucket for washing."

Right, I had one made of nylon, like an accordian shape: it got "yucky" and I tossed it out.

How about those bigger volume "food bags" that sit upright, because the base is like an envelope? Trim the height down, to "bucket" or "washbasin" dimensions.

I would take "that" along in my backpack as a disposable collapsible washbasin, for one trip, and replace for the next.

[Fiddleback]

Phosphate (detergent) in a septic system doesn't kill much of anything but it can lead to problems that do. Excess phosphate in water can cause algal bloom which in turn reduces the amount of oxygen and light available in surface water. Lakes and ponds can eventually experience eutrophication.

In septic systems, phosphorus originates from detergents and human excreta. Anaerobic digestion in the septic tanks converts most of the phosphorus into soluble orthophosphates and the phosphate is then removed from the soil by adsorption, precipitation, plant uptake, and biological immobilization.

Basically, as long as the septic drain field is working the home owner does not have to worry about phosphate detergents. Phosphate pollution from sewage is a municipal problem where sewage systems do not have the capacity to remove the amount they're receiving. The phosphates then get dumped to the surface waters where problems begin.

All that being said, soap, phosphate-based or otherwise, does not belong in natural waters. If you're going to wash your body, do it out of the stream/lake. It'll help keep one more little bit of 'crap' out of the water.

FB

[weary]

Phosphate (detergent) in a septic system doesn't kill much of anything but it can lead to problems that do. Excess phosphate in water can cause algal bloom which in turn reduces the amount of oxygen and light available in surface water. Lakes and ponds can eventually experience eutrophication.

In septic systems, phosphorus originates from detergents and human excreta. Anaerobic digestion in the septic tanks converts most of the phosphorus into soluble orthophosphates and the phosphate is then removed from the soil by adsorption, precipitation, plant uptake, and biological immobilization.

Basically, as long as the septic drain field is working the home owner does not have to worry about phosphate detergents. Phosphate pollution from sewage is a municipal problem where sewage systems do not have the capacity to remove the amount they're receiving. The phosphates then get dumped to the surface waters where problems begin.

All that being said, soap, phosphate-based or otherwise, does not belong in natural waters. If you're going to wash your body, do it out of the stream/lake. It'll help keep one more little bit of 'crap' out of the water.

FB

I could argue some technical points. Phosphorus is a plant fertilizer. In a properly designed septic system leach field, most of the phosphorus gets taken up by plants. But the system isn't perfect. Some phosphorus escapes into the ground water and some of that ground water ends up in lakes and streams.

But you are right in saying, "If you're going to wash your body, do it out of the stream/lake. It'll help keep one more little bit of 'crap' out of the water."

However, neither am I perfect. Occasionally on big streams, where I know the downstream pressures, and the hike has been long and the mud grimy and the urge to get really clean emerges overpoweringly, I have weakened in the past -- and may again in the future.

Weary

[sprocket]

This may sound nuts, but I've used the following on week long trips in the whites and am pretty sure this is as good as it gets for quick/easy/enviro friendly daily dips....

1) restaurant mayo packet (for fat content....)
2) a decent pinch of fine "campfire ashes" (Alkali)
3) small amount of pine sap (this will make the soap anti-bacterial as well)

Mix it all together and use the "goop" as you would a body soap...the amount of pine sap and ashes should be small at first to avoid minor skin rashes (too much alkili) or increased if water is not removing the "oiliness" from the mayo (fat/lard)

[Jaybird]

This may sound nuts, but I've used the following on week long trips in the whites and am pretty sure this is as good as it gets for quick/easy/enviro friendly daily dips....

1) restaurant mayo packet (for fat content....)
2) a decent pinch of fine "campfire ashes" (Alkali)
3) small amount of pine sap (this will make the soap anti-bacterial as well)

Mix it all together and use the "goop" as you would a body soap...the amount of pine sap and ashes should be small at first to avoid minor skin rashes (too much alkili) or increased if water is not removing the "oiliness" from the mayo (fat/lard)

m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m....& TASTY TOO!

[Skeemer]

As Baltimore Jack said an interesting thread...and has got me thinking about whether I should even go for a dip in a stream or creek. We just got back from doing the JMT where the water in the ponds, streams, springs, lakes, eveywhere was unbelievable...clear, "pristine" and beautiful. I always thought it was okay to wade, even take a dip in these sources since there are other natural contaminants a lot worse than my surface grime.

Having said that, I never wash up or wash clothing in any water source period. Your a hiker and you can wait until town just like you do for a shower food and a bed. Maybe others have mentioned it, but I carry those 20 pack antibacterial wipes and clean my face, hands, underarms, privates, etc before gettng in by bag. I also wear silk long johns and socks, use a bag liner and have never developed the sleeping bag odor so many talk about. In fact, believe it or not, I haven't had to wash it in over 3000 miles.

[neo]

i skinny dipp,no soap neo

[neo]

Interesting thread. A few quick thoughts:

1. Soap doesn't belong in backcountry streams, brooks, ponds. Period. I don't care if it's allegedly 'biodegradable." You should do your washing---your pots, your hair, your ass---well away from, and certainly not IN drinking water sources.

2. You should avoid either bathing, swimming, or soaking various parts of your body in water that people are likely to be drinking from. When in doubt, either move well downstream from where people are drawing their water, or wait for a better occasion.

3. People are gonna swim in lakes. They've done this for millenia. Be aware that people are gonna swim in lakes, and treat your water accodingly if you're gonna drink lake water.

i dont even carry soap, neo

[TOW]

As I lived on that trail off and on for three years I learned to carry with me wet towels, a little heavy but they did a great job keeping me clean. Since they were made of paper, I would just toss them into the fire after. But I have bathed in many a stream using the sands or small rough rocks to scrub my body. For those of you who have a problem with someone elses hair, then what about all the critters that bathe in the streams?

wanderer

[JoeHiker]

So why not just use one of those "environmentally friendly" soaps made from vegetable oils (e.g. Camp Suds) or some other such cleaner.

[weary]

So why not just use one of those "environmentally friendly" soaps made from vegetable oils (e.g. Camp Suds) or some other such cleaner.

Camp Suds and similar products are harmless in the quantities likely to be used along a trail. But so are ordinary bars of Ivory Soap and other mild soaps.

Expensive "special" backcountry soaps are mostly a sales gimmick, as near as I can tell. And I've been looking for evidence to the contrary for years.

Weary

[MOWGLI]

Camp Suds and similar products are harmless in the quantities likely to be used along a trail. But so are ordinary bars of Ivory Soap and other mild soaps.

Weary

Weary, I've seen you post this a bunch of times. I have to disagree. If every LD hiker carried a bar of Ivory Soap or Camp Suds, there would indeed be an impact. That sort of activity should not be encouraged. If I managed for 2100+ miles - using only water to wash up in camp, than surely it will work for other hikers.

Then again, I clearly recall getting bare arsed naked in front of the shelter just outside of Kent, CT - and dumping water repeatedly over my body directly in front of the shelter - and the Ridgerunner. No one said a word. I think I did the same thing in front of Dicks Dome too. In retrospect, perhaps this wasn't the best idea.

[rickb]

To my way of thinking, the problem with soap used for bathing is almost entirely an aesthetic one.

IMHO, the problem of unatractive soap bubble is addressed by washing and rinsing a good way up on a bank, where soil will filter what little soap one uses.

FWIW, I believe (not sure) that most bubbles in backcountry water are cause naturally. Could be wrong, but I think natural tanic acids (the same kind as make acorns bitter) are the culprit.

Washing pots directly in ponds and streams concerns me most (whether soap is used or not) There is something about pieces of maccaroni in an othewise pristine stream that gets to me.

Rick B

[fiddlehead]

Why should it bother me? I prefer clean hikers.
Interesting story here in Thailand. My girlfriend took me to a beautiful stream where everybody goes to bathe and swim. I found out it starts about 20 metres upstream from a huge artesian well so it is very clean water. (Yes, i'd probably even drink it if necessary) anyway, i was in the water and she threw me the shampoo and said: wash your hair too while your in there. I said: no way, it'll kill the fish. The girls with us all got a great laugh on that and pointed to all the fish in the water and later i found out that many people come there just to wash there hair (with soap)
Now, i know these people aren't very well educated in science and the harm soap does to living beings. But try to teach them some things and you just get smothered with laughter sometimes.
But anyway, YES! bathe in the streams, (no soap is best)

[kyhipo]

man o man are people really whacked out that much .Like who doesnt swim or clean up, soap or no soap aint nobody tell me i cant clean up thats what the good lord put it there for.And when i usually due its not by a water source for drinking lets not get retarted over this one very simple clean or not, lets make it a dumb scientific evalution like usuall ky

[The Hog]

I hope the LNT folks don't latch onto this issue. Already I've heard comments that my small cooking fires are no longer kosher. Next they'll tell me that I've violated the prime directive by my usual habit of swimming in every lake and stream I possibly can.

When swimming is outlawed, all I can say is good luck enforcing it.