Countering the cold in an unusual hike schedule.

[1forcamping]

Me and my girlfriend will be taking an alternative thru hike that involves us hiking from Georgia to SNP in fall and winter. We've descided we'll need new winter gear before the trip and were wondering what kind of sleeping bag would suffice for those sections of trail during winter. I've looking at temp ratings between 15F and 20F, but she's thinking we'll need 0F sleeping bags. I'd rather not lug the extra weight of a 0F if it won't be needed, but would also like not to freeze if it is.

Thanks for checking this out and for any responses.

[Wags]

i think you'll freeze your butt of in a 20 degree bag in winter. the extra weight will be minimal b/c it'll basically be almost all down

[1forcamping]

Well, that's the other thing...
Unfortunately I've had too many bad experiences in rain to trust myself with down, so whichever bag I go with will be synthetic.
Yeah, that bad. :/

[The Old Fhart]

I've experienced temps of 20°F on Roan (VA) in late April. The 0°F bag will help you from becoming a statistic.

Primaloft insulated bags compress almost the same as down and are hydrophobic. I'd also use 2 pads under the bag.

[leaftye]

You're crazy if you're planning to thru hike with a synthetic zero degree bag.

[Franco]

As a suggestion I would also carefully consider the mat in use. Much better (IMHO) to get a 20F bag and a 20f mat than a 10f bag and a 32f mat..
(of course a warm hat/gloves and socks ( I use the RBH vapour barrier ones) will help too.
http://www.rbhdesigns.com/
Franco

[everyman]

For a thru-hike starting in late March northbound, will a 20 degree bag be warm enough or do you need to get 15 degree bag?

[4eyedbuzzard]

For a thru-hike starting in late March northbound, will a 20 degree bag be warm enough or do you need to get 15 degree bag?

Sleeping bag ratings aren't standardized (except the European EN 13537 standard) so a 15 vs 20 degree rating isn't really meaningful. Most good "20 degree" bags would be okay that time of year. You might sleep a little cold a few nights a higher elevations - put on your base layer.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Me and my girlfriend will be taking an alternative thru hike that involves us hiking from Georgia to SNP in fall and winter. We've descided we'll need new winter gear before the trip and were wondering what kind of sleeping bag would suffice for those sections of trail during winter. I've looking at temp ratings between 15F and 20F, but she's thinking we'll need 0F sleeping bags. I'd rather not lug the extra weight of a 0F if it won't be needed, but would also like not to freeze if it is.

Thanks for checking this out and for any responses.

Your girlfriend is correct. And you'll learn that she almost always is.

[10-K]

Your girlfriend is correct. And you'll learn that she almost always is.

I often choose being happy over being right.

[Deadeye]

Your girlfriend is correct. And you'll learn that she almost always is.

As the saying goes, you can be right, or you can be happy.

[Razor]

I suggest most people ,in most years, need a zero bag in March .Depending on which winter months you may be cold some nights with that.Of course it all depends and you won't know until you are there and it will be too late to change. With that in mind always prepare for the most protection.And of course .are you prepared to hear I told you so for 1000 miles!

[SouthMark]

My grandson left Springer this year on March 1, one of the worst winters in years. Thigh deep snow in the Smokies. He had a 15º Mountain Hardwear bag. He said that he was fine. Slept most nights in undershorts only and he hates the cold.

[JAK]

i think you'll freeze your butt of in a 20 degree bag in winter. the extra weight will be minimal b/c it'll basically be almost all down

Well, that's the other thing...
Unfortunately I've had too many bad experiences in rain to trust myself with down, so whichever bag I go with will be synthetic.
Yeah, that bad. :/

You're crazy if you're planning to thru hike with a synthetic zero degree bag.

As a suggestion I would also carefully consider the mat in use. Much better (IMHO) to get a 20F bag and a 20f mat than a 10f bag and a 32f mat..
(of course a warm hat/gloves and socks ( I use the RBH vapour barrier ones) will help too.
http://www.rbhdesigns.com/
Franco

Really good discussion points here. All goods points.

For around 30F, I like synthetic because its wet around 30F and that will usually keep me warm enough in dry conditions down to 10F. However, for the same weight as a 30F synthetic I could probably get a 20F down bag, and it should still serve well in wet conditions around 30F, even if it gets a little damp now and then, because its got more down than a 30F down bag. But it will take me down to 0F in dry conditions, comfy, and even colder for survival depending on my matt and my clothing and my bivy and tarp setup.

For a smaller woman, you need a lower rated bag than me, but the same principles apply. A down bag OF THE SAME WEIGHT, will keep you warmer in cold dry conditions, and still be as safe in warmer conditions if it happens to get damp.

Most important thing is fit, especially for a smaller woman. A longer and wider bag than you need means not just more weight, but also more surface area to lose heat. A smaller person generates less heat, so they need more loft if they are expected to heat the same surface area. So the answer is to get less surface area, and shorter and narrower bag. This will save ALOT of weight for the same warmth. It will also save you money, because it might mean that you will be as warm in a 15F down bag vs a 5F down bag that is too big for you. Maybe you need 10F. Who knows? If it is sized right for you, take the 10F, even 5F or 0F, whatever you can find. The extra down doesn't add much weight, and will keep you warm. An oversized bag however, area wise, will add more weight and volume to your pack and make you colder.

If the best fit you can find is 15F or 20F, you can make up for it with a better matt system, and by wearing some clothing layers on the coldest nights. A set of long wool underwear maybe, reserved for sleeping, but also available for extra clothing if things get really nast out. On warm nights you can use them as a pillow. Make a pillowcase to keep them in.

The warmest matt system for its weigth would be 2 blue foam pads. 1 of them should be full length and extra wide. Start with a 72" and 28" wide pad. Shorten it to match your height. Narrow the width some, maybe taper it for your feet, but don't take off two much because you really need to stay on it in winter and early spring to avoid condensation. Even in later spring the ground is colder than the fall. The second blue foam matt can be shorter and narrower, but should go from shoulders to your butt. The head and neck area is important also, but usually some sort of pillow will be used. When your wool sleeping gear is being worn you can stuff something else in your pillowcase. A down hood is also something you can buy or make to make up for a well fitting but not quite warm enough sleeping bag. I like to wear a wool sweater also, which helps recover heat from any cold air getting past the neck baffle, or if I get half out of the bag to do something like make some more hot tea, or reheat the water in my hot water bottles. Wool hat and neck tube go without saying.

[JAK]

Getting a really good fit, no bigger than you need, but just girthy enough for whatever clothing you will wear on the coldest nights, that is key. A little extra room for sanity, especially if you like to pull your legs up inside now and then, or add/remove clothing while inside your sleeping bag. No longer than you need though. I think there is one company that makes their long and short sizes different than the others, so there are 4 lengths to choose from if you include them. I am not sure if womans long and short are different. if they are, there are at least 2 more lengths to choose from.

Start with the right length, regardless of gender. Then find the right girth and fit.

[Moose2001]

Well, that's the other thing...
Unfortunately I've had too many bad experiences in rain to trust myself with down, so whichever bag I go with will be synthetic.
Yeah, that bad. :/

Even a minimal amount of effort will keep your down bag dry. Put the stuff sack it's in inside a plastic bag. It'll stay dry. You'll regret taking a synthetic bag because of the packed down size.

I suggest most people ,in most years, need a zero bag in March .Depending on which winter months you may be cold some nights with that.Of course it all depends and you won't know until you are there and it will be too late to change. With that in mind always prepare for the most protection.And of course .are you prepared to hear I told you so for 1000 miles!

I believe a "good" 20 degree bag works for a March or April start date. Your real worries are the Smokies. I've seen night time temps in the teens in mid-April. A well rated bag, a good base layer/hat, a silk bag liner and maybe a fleece if need be, will get you through. If it's colder than that, bail!

[kayak karl]

in the winter buy a longer bag so you can but your boots in the bottom to keep them from freezing. you will see single digits. i carried a zero, but you could use a 20 and 3 lbs of extra clothes.

[Kerosene]

I've seen several comments about cold weather down south in March and April, but the OP noted hiking in Fall/Winter. Certainly you can get temps below freezing, and the record temps in late December can drop below zero. However, I'm pretty sure that most SOBO thru-hikers finish by early December and are not carrying 0-degree bags.

I'd probably go with a 15- or 20-degree bag, a shortie inflatable mattress over a full-length 1/4" closed-cell foam mattress, and down sweater and down pants. You'll wear the sweater and pants around camp, and wear them to bed if the temperature really plummets.

Despite your past experience with down, or perhaps because you've had bad experiences, I'd still go with a down bag. Just double-bag it in your pack and be smart about where you place your drinking water.

Frankly, my biggest concern about extended winter hiking is moderating my body temperature while I walk, so I don't end up sweating and then freezing once I stop to rest.

[JAK]

in the winter buy a longer bag so you can but your boots in the bottom to keep them from freezing. you will see single digits. i carried a zero, but you could use a 20 and 3 lbs of extra clothes.

That is a colder and heavier and more expensive solution.

If you add length, you add weight, and surface area, so you then need more loft, which is more weight again, and $$$ for the lower rating. Sure, if you have the extra length why not use it, but adding the extra length unneccessarily means you will be having to heat you boots all night. The thing is, there is still room for my leather boots in my sleeping bag without adding extra length. Also, it is better to have boots or shoes that do not absorb or hold much moisture, so there is nothing to freeze. Ok, I like leather boots, and they will freeze even if single leather, unpadded, and treated with beeswax for winter. They are light, at 16oz each, but can still take some heat to get going. Not that hard if frozen though, and plenty of room in the sleeping bag if needed, without adding extra length.

First, get the right length. There are usually 3" increments to choose from if you count different genders and different manufacturers. So, on average, you will have 1.5" extra length than when you need, 3" if you are committed to a particular maunfacturer. Don't go adding 6" to that just for a pair of boots.

[JAK]

I've seen several comments about cold weather down south in March and April, but the OP noted hiking in Fall/Winter. Certainly you can get temps below freezing, and the record temps in late December can drop below zero. However, I'm pretty sure that most SOBO thru-hikers finish by early December and are not carrying 0-degree bags.

I'd probably go with a 15- or 20-degree bag, a shortie inflatable mattress over a full-length 1/4" closed-cell foam mattress, and down sweater and down pants. You'll wear the sweater and pants around camp, and wear them to bed if the temperature really plummets.

Despite your past experience with down, or perhaps because you've had bad experiences, I'd still go with a down bag. Just double-bag it in your pack and be smart about where you place your drinking water.

Frankly, my biggest concern about extended winter hiking is moderating my body temperature while I walk, so I don't end up sweating and then freezing once I stop to rest.

I hear you. My bag is rated 0deg, and I think that is C, so its 30F rated, and I use it below 0F. It is 3.2 pounds, synthetic, so in reality I think it is 15F rated. It is a Kelty, and say 0deg, but it is certainly warmer than 30F but not as warm as 0F rated bags. I use it comfortably to 0F, and uncomfortably cold. Much uncomfortably much colder. lol

Anyhow, I second what you said, but I think you are skimping too much on the ground pad for temps in the 0F to 20F range, with a 20F bag. It is true that snow only gets so cold, but air can still get underneath. And there may not always be snow, and hard frozen ground can take alot to heat up before it starts to insulate, so cold hard 20F ground can be worse than 0F air above you. In early winter down low you can avoid cold hard frozen ground, but my mid to late winter and early spring you can still find ground that cold in some places. Maybe not in southern AT, except higher elevations. I don't know. Dryer ground is not so bed. Solid rock and wet frozen ground can be really cold though.

I would suggest at least a 3/8" thick foam pad for your full length pad.
For the second pad, a shorter 3/8" thick pad will add more warmth and be ligher in weight than a self-inflating pad. With 2 pads, 1.5" total, you should be comfortable enough. A self-inflator might save you some pack volume, or you might be bringing it anyway for warmer months. Not sure. Just saying, for 0F to 20F, two thicknesses of CCF is warmest for its weight, and comfort shouldn't be an issue once you go that thick. As I see it, self-inflators are really only for comfort, and to save volume, and not needed for winter. For winter 1.5" of CCF is warmer and lighter and just as comfy.

7-10oz for your main pad, 24-28" wide, 66-72" long, 3/8" thick.
4-6oz for your 2nd pad, 20-24" wide, 44-48" long, 3/8" thick.
So, 11oz to 16oz, depending on how tall you are, and how much your move. You can taper the pad for your feet, but I move around too much. Sometimes I pull a bag over the bottom to tie my feet in and add a little extra warmth. You could taper some then, but its still nice to leave a little for the wrap effect. It's not completely wasted. You can also use the material from there if you have to make insoles or something like that. I haven't tapered mine yet, but I might.

I would agree also that I would be more concerned about clothing. Bring enough clothing. You should have enough so that even it it does get damp or wet from sweat or rain or snow, you will be warm enough to dry it out. When you are cold your skin is on average only 80F, and colder in the arms and legs. When you are heated up enough, but still not sweating, it can be 95F, even in the extremities. So you want enough extra so that you will be warm enough to dry it out, even when it is damp. If it gets wet, you should take it off and wring it out. If it gets frozen, you can beat the ice crytals out of it in the air or against a tree. But if it is just damp, you should be able to heat that dampness out. A mix of wool and polyester layers works best for this, especially if you take your wind shell off, and just put if back on when you stop. I will hike with the wind shell and rain shells on while moving if it is reall that cold for my layers, and just slow down a little. That will conserve more energy than taking shells off and hiking faster. If you do still start getting damp, then you take the wind/rain shells off and hike a little faster to heat them up and dry them out, but you shouldn't hike so hard as to sweat, not when conserving energy and heat. I will sweat in winter alot, skiing, hiking whatever, without worry, but only on nice days during the day when I know I will be able to get dried back out again. You just don't want to wait until sundown to do it, or until you are exhausted. Then it is too late.

You get a feel for it. You feel your way into it. Learn as you go. Just don't skimp too much on clothing layers while doing it. Also good to bring a thermometer, so you know more exactly what temperature it was when it worked, or when it didn't. It also helps if you grew up some place going to school and playing in the snow and staying outside even on storm days, especially on storm days. Kids don't do that up here anymore, even on nice days.

This winter I think I will have to teach my daughter to always have her winter clothing ready. This is the winter to do it, while she is still young enough and light enough to throw over a snow bank. She has to learn that cotton hoodies and skinny ass jeans and no ankle socks just don't cut it.