2004 ALDHA Gathering

[warren doyle]

TJ,

"Overwhelming"??

FYI, this wasn't the first time I did not receive enough votes to serve as a voting member of the steering committee, and I expect that it will not be the last time either. Before the vote was taken, the five candidates for the three steering committee positions were allowed to to do a short speech. I mentioned to the membership that I had faith in all five candidates and that if I wasn't elected that I would still attend steering committee meetings ( I haven't missed any since the start 1982-83) and I would do all I could to help ALDHA fulfill its mission/goals. But of course you didn't know that because you weren't there but still formed an opinion on your own - which I know that you are quite adept at.

"Good riddance"?
Hardly. Only in your dreams, TJ.

Congrats to Jojo, Red Wolf and Bill O'Brien and thanks to Mags for his stint on the board and all his contributions to past Gatherings.

On to other posts:

As to the alcohol policy at the folklife center, there was a policy at the folklife center until the mid-1990's and it was strictly enforced. There still is a policy at the center.

Two years ago at the last Gathering, before I left on Monday afternoon, I went to check the campfire ring and for the first time ever saw two barrels full of alcohol containers. Shelli, the ASFC Director was also chagrined. We decided that if the Gathering was held again at Pipestem in 2004, that the alcohol policy would be strictly enforced. We also got complaints on the evaluations about noisy behavior by people who were drinking.

Last year at Hanover, we received several complaints about noisy behavior by people who were drinking at Storrs Pond. Based on those incidents, during the 2002-2003 Gatherings, the ALDHA steering committee decided to ban alcohol at the folklife center for the 2004 Gathering (since the folklife center already had a policy in place) and to try to figure out a way to prevent another reoccurrence at Storrs Pond for the 2005 Gathering. Stacy (ALDHA Coordinator) wrote an article concerning this group decision for the ALDHA Website and I informed the white blaze.net on-line membership of these group decisions. It was apparent that the vast majority of steering committee members did not want the Gathering to turn into Trail Days by being overly commercialized or having a 'party atmosphere'. There are hikers now that don't go to Trail Days because of one or both of these reasons.

Besides, there now are several get-togethers (i.e., Trashgiving, Rucks, White Blaze) appearing where the alcohol policy is more lax where hikers can get together to share their journies.

For this year's Gathering, as far as I know there were no complaints of noisy, rowdy behavior and the campfires were quieter. The barrels that were full of bottles/cans two years ago were practically empty of said containers. Mission accomplished.

The Saturday night drinking-in-the-chapel incident was unfortunate and I talked to Shelli the ASFC Director about it on Monday morning. I hope she posts a reply here so you can get the information behind the incident directly.

It was a great Gathering. Thanks to all who shared their experiences and to those who helped make things run smooth (i.e. registration, parking at folklife center).

[orangebug]

Besides, there now are several get-togethers (i.e., Trashgiving, Rucks, White Blaze) appearing where the alcohol policy is more lax where hikers can get together to share their journies.

As the founder of the SORUCK, I'd like to know of any problems encountered in any of our editions regarding alcohol or other substances. The 2004 and 2005 SORUCKs were/will be held in Thornwell Camp with a strict no EtOH policy. Prior SORUCKs held at Amicalola Falls State Park only attracted police attention due to parkingissues. We have considered our hosts' rules as Law.

I've not been privy to similar problems experienced with any version of the PARUCK. Neither RUCK has been nearly as controversial as Trail Days or recent Gatherings.

Please do not include RUCKs in these controversies. I encourage you to consider attending either RUCK. SORUCK will be MLK weekend, PARUCK will be SuperBowl weekend. Registration fees are quite reasonable.

Bill...

[Jack Tarlin]

I'll probably have more to say on this later. Right now, I have other more pressing and far more pleasant priorities, such as the Red Sox game.

But for now, let me just say that it's wonderful that Mr. Doyle has seen fit to join this discussion, and I'm sure it's no coincidence at all that his finally making a public statement here occurred only after he'd been effectively challenged to do so.

Time is short, but one thing is significant. NOWHERE in his letter did Mr. Doyle address the key and principle issue of folks' deciding for themselves which rules apply to the world at large, and which can be selectively ignored by hikers who think they're somehow above them.

Until Mr. Doyle acknowledges that no hiker---including himself---has the right to say and do whatever they damned please out there, and so long as he continues to encourage others to behave improperly, then I submit that he's missed the entire point of this discussion, which is this:

If you're going to get your knickers in a twist about the behavior of others, it's incumbent upon you to make sure your own house is in order. This is KEY to this discussion, and it's clearly apparent that Mr. Doyle just doesn't get it.


P.S. to Warren: Would have told you this earlier, but you've been away for awhile: If you still have questions about the group of hikers that stayed at the Bent Resort---who they were, how many there were, how they behaved, etc.---I'm sure Kathy at the resort would be happy to speak with you some more, in case you missed anything during your intelligence foray on Monday. But I gotta tell you, she's really curious as to why you're so interested. Quite frankly, she didn't seem to think it was any of your business.

[Jester2000]

So what we seem to be hearing is that Warren's main objection is to litter, and his secondary consideration is noise. Fair play.

He might be interested to know (or not) that the reason that trash was in the barrels and not lying around the firepit (in 2002) is that BILLVILLE members picked up after EVERYONE on Sunday morning. If we had been made aware that the Folk Life Center was unable to handle that amount of refuse, we would have carted it off, as we did with our own trash at that event AND at the event in Hanover last year (last year we did it every morning, as we had a larger number of non-Billville members visiting and it was necessary so as to maintain a clean site). Come to think of it, Bag 'o' Trix and some other assorted trash also policed the official campfire site last year, 'tho we only dropped by there for a visit due to the request that there be no alcohol at the official fire.

As for noise, I'm sure we could have come to some accomodation regarding that. That lower field on the other side of the fire from the regular camping area did look to me like a pretty good place to put people who wanted to stay up a bit later -- located far away, on the other side of the firepit, down in a valley kind of thing. As I'm no expert on the way sound travels, that may not have been enough. In which case making sure that an emphasis on QUIET rather that ALCOHOL might have been appropriate. Lord knows there were enough people drinking at the official site this past weekend. So THAT apparently wasn't the problem.

Since we've heard about the conditions at the official site from Warren, and he didn't really learn anything negative to report from our camp while he was on his fishing expedition, I'll let you know the following: trash properly disposed of, grounds policed for butts and caps, a good time had by all, no noise complaints from owners living on-site, business owners thrilled to meet us, host us, invite us back for next time. Warren, care to confirm (since I know she told you that much)?

[warren doyle]

The two campsites at the 2004 Gathering gave the majority of the people what they wanted. Thanks again to Ms. Janet for making the connection with Bent Mt.
My visit to the Bent Mt. Campground on Monday morning (I also visited it early Friday morning) was nothing more than my traditional post-Gathering check-up which also included the following:

the folklife center and talking with Shelli the Director

and at Concord College:

dining services
college center director
security
athletic department
McNair Program
Admissions office
Alexander Arts Center administration
Geography Dept.
Concord Film Society faculty advisor
Science Dept.
Social Science Dept.
and a wonderful one-hour conversation with President Beasley

I have done this post-Gathering check-up for fifteen years now as part of my responsibilities as Gathering coordinator or Gathering site coordinator, and it is one of the reasons why we still have a Gathering in Pipestem/Athens.

I hope this fact eases the mild paranoia displayed in some of the posts on this thread.

Happy trails to all!

[Jack Tarlin]

Warren---

1. Your usual post Gathering check-up which you mention, does not mean it is
necessary or proper to investigate other ALDHA members, or where they
choose to spend time at the Gathering. It certainly doesn't make it
proper for you to ask business owners how many customers they had, how
many stayed overnight, etc. This is simply none of your business.

2. I also see that you're still incapable of acknowledging that there were no
problems of ANY SORT WHATSOEVER at the Bent resort. This has been
pointed out to you repeatedly, and you've been directly asked to publicly
acknowledge that this is so. You deliberately chose not to do so. You
took the time to snoop all over the place, but you discovered you were
wasting your time. This one really must stick in your craw. Too bad.

3. While visiting our hostess at the Bent center, you identified yourself as an
ALDHA official. Actually, this was not strictly accurate, as you well know.
At the time of your second visit, you were merely another member.

4. You mention that having two campsites gave the majority of the people
what they wanted. Once again, inaccurate and incomplete. I submit that
it was the Board election results that most clearly reflected what the
majority of the members present really wanted.

5. You speak of "mild paranoia". I don't think this was much present at the
Gathering. What was indeed present, was more than mild displeasure over
the direction the organization was going, and more than mild displeasure
over the behavior, statements, and actions of certain alleged "leaders" in
the organization. This was also addressed at the Board meeting, as the
election results confirm.

[warren doyle]

Mr. Tarlin:

1) I didn't ask how many customers they had and how many stayed overnight.

2) If parking my car near the office parking lot and standing next to it is " snoop all over the place" than I guess you interpret human movement differently than I would, and I expect differently than many others would as well. I wasn't wasting my time. Nothing 'stuck in my craw'. Nice view there.

3) I identified myself as with the hikers and that I had just coordinated the Gathering.

5) "mild paranoia" ? Examples of your wording in your post:
investigate
snoop all over the place

Happy trails to all (even the unhappy)!

[chomp]

...included the following:

the folklife center and talking with Shelli the Director

and at Concord College:
...

The way I see it, the Folklife Center and Concord College have an official, business relationship with ALDHA. Maintaining said business relationship is just that, good business. Checking in on Bent Mountain.. well that is clearly outside of any business relationship. You didn't check with any State Parks in the area or other campgrounds? So really, the only non-ALDHA-affiliated place that you checked on is where a certain group of people were camping. That's not paranoia, Warren, that is fact.

In fact, Warren, you went to great lengths to make sure that everyone knew that ALDHA would only be sponsoring one camping area:

Warren Says: "There are alternative campsites in the Pipestem/Concord College area that have already been posted here. No one is stopping anyone from contacting these areas on their own as individuals. In all probability, the only site that ALDHA will be officially sponsoring will be the folklife center."

Also, there is this:

For this year's Gathering, as far as I know there were no complaints of noisy, rowdy behavior and the campfires were quieter. The barrels that were full of bottles/cans two years ago were practically empty of said containers. Mission accomplished.

So why look any further? You accomplished your mission - but that wasn't enough. You wanted to be able to come back here and to ALDHA and say that a certain group they you eliminated caused trouble at another location, that is why. And for all the empty trash containers, there was still a major drinking problem (the chapel) at the FLC.

And just in case anyone thinks that this is still paranoia, while digging for the above quote, I found these gems:

"If a few ALDHA members are upset about this, that is their perogative. Perhaps they can form a long distance hiking group that is totally law-abiding so they wouldn't have to deal with this 'cliff-jumping' stress at their Gathering."

which goes with this one...

"I might suggest that the long distance hiking alcohol users, since there appears to be sufficient numbers now, organize themselves and have there own 'gathering' someplace else."

Sounds like Warren wants a very specific membership at the gatherings. At least he isn't on the board anymore. Oh, I found this very untrue quote as well:

"The two main venues for the 2004 Gathering allow no alcohol.
This will be strictly enforced at the Appalachian South Folklife center."

The above mission was clearly not accomplished. Maybe if this policy was enforced better, there would not have been a problem of drinking in the chapel.

[Jester2000]

It's kind of difficult in my mind to figure out why our host would, minutes after talking with Mr. Doyle, claim that he had asked a number of times how many people had stayed at her campground, or that she had invited him to come inside and look at her register after his repeated requests (an offer which, according to her, he declined).

Why would she tell us that, if, as Mr. Doyle claims, he did not ask? Personally, I think it's a minor point, and one not really worth lying about, but if anyone really wants to find out what happened during that conversation, they shouldn't believe me, as I was not there (I base my info on what I was told by the owner).

They should call Bent Mountain Resort, and ask Kathy. The number there is (304)382-3491. Their website is www.bentmountain.net, and I believe you can access their email through that site. I would only ask that they not be inundated with unnecessary phone calls; they've got a business to run and don't really need to be dragged into all of this. But Kathy is a friendly, outgoing person, and probably won't mind meeting a couple of you over the phone.

You could also, I suppose, ask her how Warren introduced himself, which he did by saying that he was the "Founder of Aldha" (an absolutely true statement, but one that implies an official visit rather that a casual "I'm with the hikers" kind of thing).

Personally, I think that I had many meaningful conversations with other Aldha members that outweigh this counterproductive nonsense, and so I will say no more about it, short of this:

I get along fine with people who try to do the right thing, and I also get along fine with people who recognize when they make mistakes, own up to them, and apologize. I don't hold grudges with people who do so, and I try to move forward with them.

[Frosty]

They should call Bent Mountain Resort, and ask Kathy. The number there is *****. Their website is *****, and I believe you can access their email through that site. I would only ask that they not be inundated with unnecessary phone calls; they've got a business to run and don't really need to be dragged into all of this.

I really hope no one calls and bothers this woman, and it would be nice if you edited your post and removed the phone number.

None of this serves any purpose that I can see, and to expand the WHiteblaze internal bickering to campgrounds can do no good to the hiking community.

[smokymtnsteve]

what your membership dues for ALDHA are really for is to publish a newsletter and to be listed in the yearbook, you know receive more JUNK in the mail, I paid dues and when i found out that they are just de facto subscription to a yearbook,, I said no thanks,

seems what you get is a bunch of folks internal arguing about policies, If I had wanted to be a member of an argument I would have stayed married to my first wife.

[Chappy]

what your membership dues for ALDHA are really for is to publish a newsletter and to be listed in the yearbook, you know receive more JUNK in the mail, I paid dues and when i found out that they are just de facto subscription to a yearbook,, I said no thanks,

seems what you get is a bunch of folks internal arguing about policies, If I had wanted to be a member of an argument I would have stayed married to my first wife.

Smoky,
I continue to be impressed by your humor. Hope you're still feeling well.

[Jack Tarlin]

Mr. Doyle:

Your explanations and evasions are as weak as your performance in the recent ALDHA election.

I note that despite several requests, you STILL have a problem telling us what the owner of the Bent Resort had to say about the folks that stayed there.

It has been stated here several times that the owners were delighted with us, that there were absolutely no problems that weekend, and that they'd love to have us back.

You have been asked to confirm that this is EXACTLY what you were told by the owner of the establishment. You've been asked this several times.

The fact that you're incapable of doing this says a great deal about you.
Nothing we didn't already know, mind you. But it reaffirms it. A small man runs from the truth. And the smaller man hides from it.

I understand you had a rough weekend, Mr. Doyle. You made a big deal of letting folks know about the rules and regulations at the Folklife Center. Then it turned out that your diligence in this matter was based on exaggerations or untruths---it is now clear that the management of the Center has no problems whatsoever with responsible drinking. Plus, it's obvious that enforcement of this "ban" was either poor, or non-existent; it's clear that your crusading on this matter was directed at a small group of folks whose weekend you wanted to control or better yet, cancel altogether. Your attempts to find faults with these folks REGARDLESS of where they ended up camping was a dismal failure, tho you're not man enough to publicly acknowledge this. And to top it off, the organization that you founded and helped lead for two decades said in no uncertain terms that you were the
LAST person on the elective slate that they wanted in an ALDHA leadership position. Plain and simply, the organization that you've treated like a plaything for years is anything but; it musta hurt when your favorite wind-up toy decided to boot your behind out the door. Don't worry. It's only been six days. I'm sure you'll be able to sit down again soon.

So I understand why you're kind of testy; you had a fairly rough weekend. All of which you brought on yourself.

And lastly, Mr. Doyle, you wished Happy Trails to everyone, even the unhappy. I assure you and everyone else, most of the folks in ALDHA are very happy indeed: They have three excellent new people on the Board, and they've sent a clear message that the organization is heading in a new direction, which is long overdue.

You've been a disruptive influence at the ALDHA Gathering twice since 2001. The vote in the last election is proof positive that the organization is sick of this.

As I am sick of this conversation. See ya in a few days, I'm going hiking.

[weary]

Warren---

5. You speak of "mild paranoia". I don't think this was much present at the
Gathering. .

I can't comment about the gathering since I didn't attend, but a bit more than "mild" paranoia seems to be brewing on this thread.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

TJ,

"Overwhelming"??

The founder of ALDHA finished LAST in the balloting.
Sixth place out of six choices.
Almost as overwhelming an event as when dozens of ALDHA members walked out on your "poetry" reading at the '01 Gathering. I didn't walk out, I just booed. I thought from your pop-eyed, red faced, fist shaking, and shouting, you were just drunk - until the folks I was sitting with explained such behavior wasn't unusual from you. Your latest episode just confirms the opinon I formed of you that night.

[WalkinHome]

Hi All,

Hope TJ doesn't mind me poaching his thread but wanted to let you know the pictures of Billville at the Gathering are up if you are interested. Some adult content and a very large beer in evidence. Enjoy.

http://gallery.backcountry.net/album49