Gear weight vs. Safety

[Marta]

I agree with Blissful that novice backpackers are much more likely to pack too heavy than to pack too lightly. I would also argue that the assortment of items in the pack is rarely the cause of really bad experiences--it's the cascade of poor decisions of all sorts, made by people so lacking in knowledge that they don't even recognize how ignorant they are, and blithely head into situations from which no gear would be able to rescue them.

[prain4u]

If you find yourself in trouble 30 miles from civilization, how many days do you want to spend hiking out? One or 5?

It seems there's a trajectory people go on when they hear the ultralight news. Doubt and denial is one step. Prain4u will be preaching ultralight soon, you'll see.

I never see newbies going out with too little gear. I see them invariably carrying ridiculous loads. Full-sized folding chairs, pots big enough to cook soup for 12 people. Carrying a light load with high-quality gear can be warmer, safer and drier than a heavy load of silly, low-quality stuff that some salesman sold you at the gear shop.
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For the record, my pack/gear is already at the low end of lightweight and bordering on ultralight. Currently, my lightest weight setup (warm summer time) for my Big 4 (Pack, sleeping pad, tarp, sleeping bag) is 3 lbs 12 oz. My heaviest setup (good to around "zero" degrees farhenheit) is 6 lbs 15 oz. (Sleeping bag, tent, pack, 2 sleeping pads, and sleeping bag liner).

Again, I am all in favor of lightweight hiking. I am also aware that MOST newbies carry WAY too much weight and far too much gear.

HOWEVER, my concern arises from some of the questions and comments that I see on WhiteBlaze (and elsewhere) where hikers with little or no hiking experience seem to be making gear decisions based primarily upon weight.

There are many other factors to consider (other than just "weight") when selecting gear.

[Wolf - 23000]

I agree with Blissful that novice backpackers are much more likely to pack too heavy than to pack too lightly. I would also argue that the assortment of items in the pack is rarely the cause of really bad experiences--it's the cascade of poor decisions of all sorts, made by people so lacking in knowledge that they don't even recognize how ignorant they are, and blithely head into situations from which no gear would be able to rescue them.

Marta,

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you and I'll explain why. In 2006, I headed southbound from Hot Spring, NC to Springer Mt against the northbound flow. I started March 15 - April 1. Many of the northbounders that I ran into were freezing both on the trail and at night. There is simple to much of a push for newbies to travel lightweight. Part of the problem I see is too many former hikers tell novice hikers to travel as light as possible. Well a 2 - 6 ounce jacket is lightweight but really won't cut it when hiking in snow or down south in March/April.

As for "the assortment of items in the pack is rarely the cause of really bad experiences" well, many people get off the trail for different reasons, most within the first couple of weeks. I don't know the numbers for this but I think I could make a very strong argue that many of them left the trail because they unprepared that resulted in them having a bad experience on the trail.

Wolf

[fredmugs]

I didn't read through all the posts but it seems to me that going light is more closely related to being more expensive than a safety issue. I don't try to shave off every ounce because it's not worth the money to me. Having froze my rear off a few times in my hammock I would love to have all of those quilts people rave about but there's no way I'm paying that much for them.

I think there are two "light" issues. One is buying the lightest weight equipent possible to serve your purposes and the other is to skimp and hope you get away with it. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I'm way too anal to not bring enough stuff.

The go light advocates are not skimping.

[Marta]

I hear what you're saying, Wolf, and don't dispute it. It is true that one of the people who joined me on what was supposed to be a hike from Amicalola to Neels Gap over New Year's was crowing about his very light pack when we weighed our respective packs at the Visitor Center...and then he bailed the following morning after shivering all night.

But also starting out on a NOBO hike was a guy who had loads of clothing with him (and a pack weight of 55 pounds) but who was also shivering all night because he didn't know how to use what he had.

My feeling is that either guy could have been warm enough, if they had the skill to use what they had.

There is no cure for ignorance, except experience.

[garlic08]

I'll back up Marta on this one, based on my admittedly biased experience and a very small sample. And she did say "rarely", not "never"--there are always exceptions. In April of '08 I was hiking through the Smokies when a winter storm hit. My partner and I were the only ones I saw with pack weights under 40 pounds. Yet we were the only ones to skip Gatlinburg after two days of snow and temps in the teens. We had the crystal ice palace of Ice Water Springs Shelter to ourselves, and were all alone in the Park until we saw the huddled masses at the next couple of shelters (one of whom landed in the hospital with frostbitten feet despite the heavy leather boots). Why were the guys in running shoes and UL equipment still hiking comfortably? It certainly wasn't the gear.

[prain4u]

I'll back up Marta on this one, based on my admittedly biased experience and a very small sample. And she did say "rarely", not "never"--there are always exceptions. In April of '08 I was hiking through the Smokies when a winter storm hit. My partner and I were the only ones I saw with pack weights under 40 pounds. Yet we were the only ones to skip Gatlinburg after two days of snow and temps in the teens. We had the crystal ice palace of Ice Water Springs Shelter to ourselves, and were all alone in the Park until we saw the huddled masses at the next couple of shelters (one of whom landed in the hospital with frostbitten feet despite the heavy leather boots). Why were the guys in running shoes and UL equipment still hiking comfortably? It certainly wasn't the gear.

Garlic--is it safe to assume that you are saying it was EXPERIENCE (coupled with common sense) that permitted you stay out there comfortably in running shoes and UL equipment?

Do you think that you could have done the same hike comfortably (and with the same clothes and equipment) as an inexperienced newbie?

[Ender]

There is no cure for ignorance, except experience.

I love this quote. I love this quote so much.

I agree with most here that the more experience you have, the lighter you're able to go. And, with proper planning, even a newbie is able to go much lighter now than they were even 10 years ago, and do so safely. But, if weight is the only concern, especially for a newbie, things can easily become uncomfortable for that hiker. And even sometimes dangerous... though I would say on the AT that the danger is very minimal, since it's such a well traveled trail.

Heck, I consider myself a pretty experienced long distance hiker, and I usually start off each hike with more/different gear than I end up carrying at the end of the hike. It's a continuous learning process. That's half the fun

[sbhikes]

I think a lot of the newbies come in with their questions about weight but they are focusing on weight because they don't want to sound too ignorant. However, they aren't focusing on the right places to lose weight and I'll betcha that most of them in the end on the night before the trip start what-iffing themselves to the point that they put a lot more stuff in their packs than they'll really need.

Having heavy boots, big heavy jackets, tons of extra clothes and lots of doo-dads doesn't necessarily keep you warmer or make you safer. I have been a lot warmer and safer since I swapped all my gear out for lighter stuff. The lighter stuff is higher quality.

There may be some newbies who go lighter by leaving stuff out, and we know the right way to go lighter is to SWAP stuff out and leave UNNECESSARY things out, but the vast majority of people I see out there are carrying way more stuff than they need and laboring under heavy loads that can't be any fun at all and they're not even carrying better stuff that will provide a warmer, safer experience.

Most people also pull into camp at 2 and sit around freezing to death. Part of the lightweight kit is using the movement of your body to keep warm, hiking more hours. If that's not the experience you want, then yes, you do have to carry a lot more crap. But if you're cold, there's one easy way to warm up that doesn't weight anything: just keep moving.

[prain4u]

I hear what you're saying, Wolf, and don't dispute it. It is true that one of the people who joined me on what was supposed to be a hike from Amicalola to Neels Gap over New Year's was crowing about his very light pack when we weighed our respective packs at the Visitor Center...and then he bailed the following morning after shivering all night.

But also starting out on a NOBO hike was a guy who had loads of clothing with him (and a pack weight of 55 pounds) but who was also shivering all night because he didn't know how to use what he had.

My feeling is that either guy could have been warm enough, if they had the skill to use what they had.

There is no cure for ignorance, except experience.

I agree with all of your points.

I would also had a generalization (which is obviously open to debate).....

Lightweight hiking and UL hiking are often less forgiving of "mistakes" and provide less of a "margin of error"--especially in the hands of an inexperienced hiker. Some examples:

--An experienced hiker with a 40 degree sleeping bag on a 30 degree night would probably fare better than the inexperienced person in the same scenario. (The newbie might have been wiser to carry a 15 or 20 degree bag--which probably would have weighed slightly more). The experienced person would probably pick a "warmer" site to pitch a tent (sheltered from the wind and not on a creek bed). They would probably be more experienced at keeping the tent and sleeping bag more condensation free--and hence, drier and warmer. They would use their clothing in a wise way in order to increase the effective rating of the bag

--A 14 oz NeoAir Ultralight sleeping pad will tolerate less "rookie mistakes" (such as poor site selection on sticks and other objects or "plopping down" on it in a rough way) than a 14 oz. (closed cell foam) Ridgerest sleeping pad.

-An experienced hiker has (hopefully) learned how to avoid overheating and getting needlessly sweaty in cool hiking temperatures. Thus, the experienced hiker may be able to get by with one less change of clothing than the inexperienced hiker--because the experienced hiker does not reach camp in clothes which are wet from perspiration

--An experienced hiker/camper might be better able (than an inexperienced hiker) to stay dry when sleeping under a smaller sized (ultra lightweight) tarp. An inexperienced person would probably do better with a tarp that was a little larger and made from a slightly heavier weight material (or even using a tent made from a bit more durable material).


People with greater camping and hiking experience are often better able to safely and comfortably use lightweight and ultralight weight equipment than inexperienced people.

(NOTE: I am NOT saying that "heavier" equipment automatically makes things better. Inexperience can hurt you even with a 55 lb pack full of gear. I am just saying that, in many instances, equipment that is a bit heavier weight is often more forgiving of "rookie mistakes").

[JohnnyB]

The trick is finding the poundage your system of gear and your body can handle comfortably, and then not exceeding it. I carry 40 lbs in my ULA Catalyst. I can tell ZERO difference between 30 lbs and 40 lbs on my back. 40 lbs does not in any way restrict me, make me more tired, etc. Would 20 lbs make hiking less tiring? Probably, but it would make camping suck for me. A typical day on the AT for me is 10 hours of hiking and 14 hours of camping. Easier hiking does not justify less comfortable camping, to ME.

That being said, I train for my section hikes with 70 lbs in my Gregory Shasta. Going from 70 to 40 makes 40 feel like nothing.

The thing I don't get is when people find that "happy medium" where pack weight doesn't get in their way and/or really matter anymore, but still feel the need to re-buy all new stuff just to save 5 lbs and somehow think that they're "better backpackers" for doing so. Let's face it, we ALL could be UL if money was no object. Maybe people just have more money than me. If so, I can see saying "Why not buy new stuff?" The only thing I've changed in my kit over the past 3-4 years is that I bought a Thermarest Neoair to replace my Prolite 4. I did it for the comfort factor, not the weight/bulk factor. It saved me a full pound.

But so does chugging a pint of water before hiking on as opposed to carrying it. I think that gear selection and pack weight is just one of the few things people planning backpacking trips CAN obsess about. Other than that, there's just getting there, getting home, money, and walking. Take ANYTHING, and a certain number of people of do it will obsess about some aspect of it. Backpacking just doesn't have that many things to obsess about, so pack weight gets a lot of that attention. Personally, I obsess about what to buy my kids and wife as souveniers for "daddy/hubby being gone for a week or two every year".

Bigben

Starting from scratch, a very nice UL kit costs less than a very nice kit of traditional backpacking gear.

[JAK]

(NOTE: I am NOT saying that "heavier" equipment automatically makes things better. Inexperience can hurt you even with a 55 lb pack full of gear. I am just saying that, in many instances, equipment that is a bit heavier weight is often more forgiving of "rookie mistakes").

There is nothing forgiving about 55 pounds of gear. The person is more likely to be exhausted, or injured, when they find themselves in trouble.

Both extremes are less safe than the happy medium. More experienced hikers can go closer to either extreme, light or heavy. Less experienced hikers, need to be closer to the happy medium, which might be 20-30 pounds. Less experienced overweight hikers need to go a little lighter than that, perhaps 15-25 pounds.

[prain4u]

There is nothing forgiving about 55 pounds of gear. The person is more likely to be exhausted, or injured, when they find themselves in trouble.

Both extremes are less safe than the happy medium. More experienced hikers can go closer to either extreme, light or heavy. Less experienced hikers, need to be closer to the happy medium, which might be 20-30 pounds. Less experienced overweight hikers need to go a little lighter than that, perhaps 15-25 pounds.

JAK: I think you have probably written the "definitive" statement that most posters on this thread could agree with. In just three short sentences you have struck a good balance between what all of the various "sides" in this "debate" have been trying to say in 71 previous posts. Folks might disagree on the weight limits you listed. (This IS WhiteBlaze and we WILL debate anything). However the sentences which I have highlighted really sum things up well. THANKS!

(Maybe you should now go and try to negotiate a Mideast peace accord or bring the Democrats and Republicans together on a variety of issues!)

[Mags]

I'm still not sure of your point....

It's just gear. Ignorant and experienced people are gonna get into trouble no matter totchkes they are carrying.

[DeeDee]

I am not an experienced hiker. I have done a few day hikes. I am not in the best of shape. I am planning on trying a thru hike with my son this year. We have packed our packs at me with 40lbs and him at 30 lbs. What has about kept us from even trying to do it, is the cost of the LIGHT WEIGHT things that we just " Cant get along without". I don't know if we will be able to do the whole thing. If we don't try we will never know. I turned to white blaze hoping to get encouragement. Not have half the people tell you that your not going to make it if you sleeping bag weighs 3lbs. Sleeping bags didnt always weight 2lbs. I have read a few books where the authors or the people they where with lighten their packs on the trail or with in a few days figured out what they need and got rid of the rest. I think the best advice I have heard and read was take your time. Enjoy YOUR hike. How about encouraging people to just try. If they dont finish the first try, maybe they will start to section hike. Give them list of things they should not go without, not the most expensive things they have to have. Give a guide line like no more then 1/4th of your body weight. Not your pack should be 25 lbs or you are setting youself up to fail.

[10-K]

My first WB post was 12/18/07 when I was planning my first overnight hiking trip. Fast forward 26 months and I've hiked ~1400 miles of the AT.

I would say that for me, experience matters more than gear. On my first trip, I was wearing blue jeans on top of Big Bald in 20 degree weather. I would never do that now.

I've learned a lot by trial and error and I've avoided a lot of problems just by reading these forums.

Ultimate new hiker shot: http://picasaweb.google.com/tbradnc/...43565309315874

[JAK]

I am not an experienced hiker. I have done a few day hikes. I am not in the best of shape. I am planning on trying a thru hike with my son this year. We have packed our packs at me with 40lbs and him at 30 lbs. What has about kept us from even trying to do it, is the cost of the LIGHT WEIGHT things that we just " Cant get along without". I don't know if we will be able to do the whole thing. If we don't try we will never know. I turned to white blaze hoping to get encouragement. Not have half the people tell you that your not going to make it if you sleeping bag weighs 3lbs. Sleeping bags didnt always weight 2lbs. I have read a few books where the authors or the people they where with lighten their packs on the trail or with in a few days figured out what they need and got rid of the rest. I think the best advice I have heard and read was take your time. Enjoy YOUR hike. How about encouraging people to just try. If they dont finish the first try, maybe they will start to section hike. Give them list of things they should not go without, not the most expensive things they have to have. Give a guide line like no more then 1/4th of your body weight. Not your pack should be 25 lbs or you are setting youself up to fail.

I don't think you are 10 or 15 pounds heavy because of 3 pound sleeping bags vs 2 pound sleeping bags. You must be bringing stuff you don't need. That is your choice. Spare us the drama.

[JAK]

Sorry if that was a little harsh, but are you each carrying a 10 pound tent, or what?

[JAK]

The happy medium I was talking about earlier is also the cheapest solution. Maybe sub 10 is more expensive than 15 pounds, but I really don't think 20 pounds cost more than 30 pounds. Quite the opposite. Hiking doesn't have to be expensive at any weight. It really doesn't. Alot of this rhetoric probably originates with outfitters trying to sell us more stuff than we really need, and we being too willing to comply. Whatever the happy medium is 15-25 pounds or whatever, skin out, that can be done very cheap, without compromising safety. What amazes me is that people seem to be so much on one extreme or the other, and they resort to the most extreme rhetoric to make their point.

Try some moderation. It's always a good place to start.

[Wolf - 23000]

I am not an experienced hiker. I have done a few day hikes. I am not in the best of shape. I am planning on trying a thru hike with my son this year. We have packed our packs at me with 40lbs and him at 30 lbs. What has about kept us from even trying to do it, is the cost of the LIGHT WEIGHT things that we just " Cant get along without". I don't know if we will be able to do the whole thing. If we don't try we will never know. I turned to white blaze hoping to get encouragement. Not have half the people tell you that your not going to make it if you sleeping bag weighs 3lbs. Sleeping bags didnt always weight 2lbs. I have read a few books where the authors or the people they where with lighten their packs on the trail or with in a few days figured out what they need and got rid of the rest. I think the best advice I have heard and read was take your time. Enjoy YOUR hike. How about encouraging people to just try. If they dont finish the first try, maybe they will start to section hike. Give them list of things they should not go without, not the most expensive things they have to have. Give a guide line like no more then 1/4th of your body weight. Not your pack should be 25 lbs or you are setting youself up to fail.

DeeDee,

The trail can be done both lightweight and also with a 30 - 40 pound pack. With that said, you need to do what is best for you. You should never do something that doesn't feel safe. There are a lot of knock-heads out that really push the Lightweight/ultra-light approach before some hikers have the experience or are really ready. It not the person who gave the advice on what someone should/shouldn't carry who has to suffer, it is the person who believe them.


Even someone of your internet writers really are not that good themselves. A while back a girl I was with made me read an article by John Shannon on lightweight and the only thing I could do was laugh. He had sources on lightweight but he himself was didn't understand how everything work. He was talking about pack weights light it was the newest and greatest thing that were around for the last 20 years but wanted to talk out his butt like he was an expert. You could tell he had limited experience. There are others but he is the one that came to mind as I wrote this.

My advise to you is this, you know better than anyone else what you will need out there. When you get out there and what to travel lighter, look inside your pack and take the extra stuff you don't need and move on. For some it could be an extra book or a heavy sleeping bag for others it could be extra clothes. You know better than anyone what you can leave behind and what you need. You just have to believe in yourself.

Wolf