Gear weight vs. Safety

[Mountain Wildman]

I have pretty much purchased all quality gear as light as I could get, the heaviest thing I bought is my backpack. But I am inexperienced in backpacking, I admit that.
I plan to shakedown all the cool goodies I bought and fine tune my gear for my Thru-Hike in 2011. I plan to leave Georgia March 5th. I was going to SOBO since I live near Mount Washington but that will only give me about a month of hiking out of Maine and I don't know if I will have steel hiker legs by that time to tackle the Whites.

[prain4u]

More than likely, inexperienced hikers will tote too much because they don't know what to expect or what to bring, and that usually means heavy cheap gear. I've not known inexperienced to go ultralight

I think in most cases--you are VERY correct in the above observations.

However, as I read posts here (and elsewhere) I am seeing some pretty inexperienced hikers asking questions (and making comments) about their gear choices that seem to indicate that they are indeed trying to go lightweight or UL in some of their gear choices--without fully grasping the trade-offs that those choices entail.

DAJA sums up my observations and concerns pretty well......

Beginners most definitely get misled by some of the UL preachers on this site, and even aside from that bunch, the general trend pushed on this board is always "lighter is better."........

Well, eventually we all end up here seeking answers and looking for advise, and the message repeatedly being shouted here is "lighter is better"... The more thoughtful ones will also include that experience is recommended... But basically the message recieved is, "lighten your load son"....

So you return to your hefty pack, and start pulling things out making decisions with no knowledge of the consequences for your decisions...

So, perhaps folks, (looking at you ULers) could use a little restraint and recognize that they achieved their light weight over a period of trial and error... Learning their personal tolerances and an understanding of how they can expect their specific gear choices to work in a variety of conditions... Beginners have not...

Sure offer suggestions and advise, but be sure to include the full list of compromises included in such weight saving schemes...

[Mags]

What is the advantage of a heavy pack if a person can have functionally the same gear without any compromise in comfort and safety with a lighter kit? Bragging rights? More toys? More space used up in your garage? Backpacking is supposed to be about simplicity..not loading yourself up like a Beverly Hillbillies car.

I am reading a biography about John Muir. Care to research what he carried?


Re-read my initial post about my friend. What advantage does have have carrying a DAJA or a Walter TiPi kit for three season CO hiking?

[skinewmexico]

Hopefully my WM bag won't be the death of me. Should have bought heavier?

It all boils down to using the right tool for your job. Whether you're Mags or Tipi.

[Dogwood]

However, as I read posts here (and elsewhere) I am seeing some pretty inexperienced hikers asking questions (and making comments) about their gear choices that seem to indicate that they are indeed trying to go lightweight or UL in some of their gear choices--without fully grasping the trade-offs that those choices entail. - prain4u

This is a legitimate concern! Again, it's my thought that we talk so often about HYOH from a defensive pt.. To me, there is a flip side to HYOH. Sure be mindful of our audience when making suggestions, but in the end allow others to also be responsible for their own hiking choices.

There certainly are a lot of marketing and agendas being pushed. Sometimes it's also done by those who who refuse to acknowlege the benefits of wisely lowering gear wt. Some who deride ULers, sometimes rightly so, simply don't have as a high priority dropping gear wt.

[Tipi Walter]

Technically Tipi is his dog's sherpa.
You have to undergo special training for that sort of work.

It's funny you should say this because on my January trip I had my dog Shunka short-rope me to the top of Mt Whigg. And he carried the oxygen.

Hopefully my WM bag won't be the death of me. Should have bought heavier?

It all boils down to using the right tool for your job. Whether you're Mags or Tipi.

There is a long argument about the "right tool for the job" theory. Some backpackers point out how conditions change radically from day to day, and therefore how their tools must change. This is most often seen in winter AT hikers bailing when their tools won't meet a sudden change in jobs. Usually it has to do with inadequate garments on the one hand and a too-light sleeping bag/pad combo on the other.

Then again, overall pack weight is totally dependent on trip length as a trip of 15 to 20 days w/o resupply will increase most "normal" weekend pack weights tremendously.

And one more point: Some of the worst tests of my sheltering systems have been not in the winter when packs are usually heavier, but in summer thunderstorms and windstorms on high open balds. If I elect to stay at such places, then I want to carry an amply guyed out four season tent to enjoy the freedom of that experience.

Winter backpacking always makes for a heavier pack, and it's easy for me to chide ULers in winter since conditions can get so awful and a whole range of multitools are needed, and this is really true in the Southeast above 5,000 feet. There's more wind and there can be snow and sleet in May. Many lowland ULers come out in the Spring to the high ground and get surprised and end up sleeping cold or wet or windblown. My big loads greatly reduce the chances of these kind of surprises. (Not to say a tree couldn't fall on me or a bear eat my head).

[prain4u]

What is the advantage of a heavy pack if a person can have functionally the same gear without any compromise in comfort and safety with a lighter kit? Bragging rights? More toys? More space used up in your garage? Backpacking is supposed to be about simplicity..not loading yourself up like a Beverly Hillbillies car.

I am reading a biography about John Muir. Care to research what he carried?


Re-read my initial post about my friend. What advantage does have have carrying a DAJA or a Walter TiPi kit for three season CO hiking?

MAGS, I agree with your points. I hope you don't think that I am trying to allege that "heavier is better" or "lighter is bad/dangerous". That is definitely not my belief --nor was that my goal when I started this thread.

This thread has already achieved what I had hoped it would achieve when I started it. Namely, encouraging people (especially new hikers) to consider factors OTHER than JUST weight when making gear choices. Posts like your long post early in this thread have helped make that possible.

In the hiking community, we do a pretty good job of preaching the gospel of "lighter is better". I am not so certain that we have done an equally good job of teaching people how to "go lighter" in a safe, responsible and well-informed manner. Weight is just ONE of MANY factors to consider when choosing the right equipment for you.

[Dogwood]

Weight is just ONE of MANY factors to consider when choosing the right equipment for you. - Prain4u

Good for you! As easy as it is to make your comment Prain4u it took me a while to really learn that and even longer to incorprate it into all my gear choices.

[prain4u]

....Again, it's my thought that we talk so often about HYOH from a defensive pt.. To me, there is a flip side to HYOH. Sure be mindful of our audience when making suggestions, but in the end allow others to also be responsible for their own hiking choices.....

Agreed.

However, many new hikers don't possess enough information to make an informed decision. They don't possess enough knowledge or experience to know what questions to ask. Therefore, I believe that the hiking community has a "obligation" to present people with both the "pros" and the "cons" of any potential choice.

When it comes to lightweight (and ultralight) hiking--we (as a community) have done a pretty good job of telling people that "lighter is better". We have not always done a great job of pointing out both the pros AND the cons of going lighter.

Once we have presented people with the potential pros and cons of a particular scenario, we should definitely "back off" and allow them to "be responsible for their own hiking choices"

[stranger]

I think it's less about weight and gear and much more about personal needs and experiences. Until you get out there and figure this stuff out, it's very difficult to gauge what you will in fact need on a cold, rainy day.

Some hikers don't carry rain gear...ever, and some hikers can go with a summer weight sleeping bag in very cold weather...their experience has taught them that this is OK...for them!

For me...I do what I do, but I also don't post gear lists or recommend what to take or not take because well, my gear works for me, and to make comments to others about this or that, well...that's just not going to be accurate.

Going light (taking less gear or more fragile gear) reduces your margin of error , this point is not debatable. However, this does not mean that taking less means you are compromising your safety, as your experience is going to determine much more than a piece of gear ever will.

But to think..."Hiker X takes a 40 degree bag and tarp in winter so I should be fine" is just silly - because you are not Hiker X.

It's simply common sense isn't it?

[fiddlehead]

Experience is everything.
I know an ultra runner who thinks nothing of carrying a 6 lb pack (with food) to go 200 miles.

Ask Wolf 2300.
I saw him on the PCT with no pack, just a fanny pack, carrying about 6 lbs of stuff.

But, these people know that they can pull a 50 miler or more if they have to.
And aren't afraid to drink the water.
They've done it, many times.

Sure the newbie isn't aware of his abilities or fears yet.
He needs time to learn what his body is capable of and most importantly, whether he feels safe taking those chances.

[JAK]

It's a shame that manufacturers are still making and selling packs that weigh too darn much, like 5-6-7 pounds. Perhaps the worst offence is kid's packs.

[scottdennis]

I think it's less about weight and gear and much more about personal needs and experiences. Until you get out there and figure this stuff out, it's very difficult to gauge what you will in fact need on a cold, rainy day.

Some hikers don't carry rain gear...ever, and some hikers can go with a summer weight sleeping bag in very cold weather...their experience has taught them that this is OK...for them!

For me...I do what I do, but I also don't post gear lists or recommend what to take or not take because well, my gear works for me, and to make comments to others about this or that, well...that's just not going to be accurate.

Going light (taking less gear or more fragile gear) reduces your margin of error , this point is not debatable. However, this does not mean that taking less means you are compromising your safety, as your experience is going to determine much more than a piece of gear ever will.

But to think..."Hiker X takes a 40 degree bag and tarp in winter so I should be fine" is just silly - because you are not Hiker X.

It's simply common sense isn't it?

Unless Hiker X is a big fat butt that has his own climate system around him, I'd say he's pretty stupid for doing that!

Some people put TOO MUCH faith in their "experience" and I'm not just talking about newbies either. Look at the guy just recently who fell of the rim of Mt St Helens. He had climb that thing as many as 68 times and had complete faith in his skills. I'm sure he was completely aware of what a cornice is and the potential danger for them near the rim.

He was an experienced backpacker who did something extremely stupid and lost his life because of it. Not only that, but people has to put their life on the line in an effort to rescue him and ultimately recover his body.

"Experience" should NEVER replaces having the proper tools for the job. I'm not saying that you're wrong for paying more money and getting a light backpack, shelter, and sleeping bag that can function just was well as some of the heavier weight similar items. But I DO have a beef with people that take a sleeping bag liner out when they should be taking a sleeping bag just so they can be SUL.

[LimpsAlong]

First time I hit the trail I had a NF Crestone 60 loaded to 44 lbs for a week. I'm now toting a GG Nimbus Ozone at 24 lbs for a week. I've got all the essentials for spring thru fall with no compromise on safety. Knees and hips dictate pack weight for me but I'll not compromise safety for any reason.
There is a way to reduce weight without compromising any aspect of safety.
Live and learn.

[LimpsAlong]

First time I hit the trail I had a NF Crestone 60 loaded to 44 lbs for a week. I'm now toting a GG Nimbus Ozone at 24 lbs for a week. I've got all the essentials for spring thru fall with no compromise on safety. Knees and hips dictate pack weight for me but I'll not compromise safety for any reason.
There is a way to reduce weight without compromising any aspect of safety.
Live and learn.

[sbhikes]

When I hiked the Colorado Trail with its long resupply stretches, high elevation trail and long climbs, the lighter kit really came into its own. I was able to carry more food due to the lighter pack weight. Any inclement weather or shortened days could be dealt with because of my longer and faster pace.

If you find yourself in trouble 30 miles from civilization, how many days do you want to spend hiking out? One or 5?

It seems there's a trajectory people go on when they hear the ultralight news. Doubt and denial is one step. Prain4u will be preaching ultralight soon, you'll see.

I never see newbies going out with too little gear. I see them invariably carrying ridiculous loads. Full-sized folding chairs, pots big enough to cook soup for 12 people. Carrying a light load with high-quality gear can be warmer, safer and drier than a heavy load of silly, low-quality stuff that some salesman sold you at the gear shop.

[garlic08]

Experience is everything.
I know an ultra runner who thinks nothing of carrying a 6 lb pack (with food) to go 200 miles.

Those guys are amazing, aren't they? Once I thought I was doing a great job on a 90 mile stretch of CDT with two nights food, carrying less than 12 pounds. Then I meet Han Solo doing the same stretch in an overnighter, passing me like I was standing still, with his little 6 pound load (and tongues cut out of his shoes, a la Ray Jardine).

I know inherently that I did not have the speed or skill set to do that kind of hiking and would never even try. No amount of preaching about that kind of hiking would ever get me out there with that kit. But it works for some and is very impressive to see, and even inspires me.

I hope that's the case here, when ULers answer questions about gear, that we all have filters to apply only what will suit our hiking styles, and maybe get some inspiration to try something different sometime. I know there are plenty of frequent posters here that I filter out, and others I read every word.

[sbhikes]

I want to add that I used to do what prain4u says, which is to have a light load I just left stuff home. I used to carry a 1lb mosquito net bed-top thing instead of a tent. I got rained on. Not too bad, but after that I had to figure out something better.

At the same time, I think I've had way more cold nights in my zero degree bag than my 20 degree quilt. I'm not sure why that is.

Now that I've got my UL stuff pretty much dialed in, I discovered on my PCT hike last summer that even when I would lose an item, I still could think of a substitute to help me through until I could get a replacement. Sometimes I got a replacement and sometimes the substitute did the job.

The other day I did an ultralight day hike. I set off from my house with only a light windbreaker, some money, a phone and a credit card. I planned my route so I would pass by water fountains. I drank from little creeks that normally don't flow. When I got hungry, I walked out and went into civilization to get some food. It was as liberating as ultralight backpacking. And to me that's what ultralight is all about. It's about the freedom to take the trail as it comes. A little bit of preparation, exactly what you need, and no fears that make you overcompensate with "bomb-proof" stuff. You're not going to war. You're just taking a walk.

[Rockhound]

You'll never make it. You might as well just get rid of all that new gear. tell ya what. I'll take it off your hands for 20% of retail. PM me with a list of whatcha got.

[scottdennis]

I think ALL of us would agree that your pack can be too heavy. I think most of us would agree that your pack can be too light (yes I know there are some who do not).

I believe there is a fine line here. But if you fall in to the range of "a little too heavy" and "a little too light" then I guess that means you're just right (for fear of sounding like goldie locks).