envelop on the sleeping bag a little. It would still be warm enough for most nights, but maybe not for the climate extreme of that night. Clothing is key.
The trick is finding the poundage your system of gear and your body can handle comfortably, and then not exceeding it. I carry 40 lbs in my ULA Catalyst. I can tell ZERO difference between 30 lbs and 40 lbs on my back. 40 lbs does not in any way restrict me, make me more tired, etc. Would 20 lbs make hiking less tiring? Probably, but it would make camping suck for me. A typical day on the AT for me is 10 hours of hiking and 14 hours of camping. Easier hiking does not justify less comfortable camping, to ME.
That being said, I train for my section hikes with 70 lbs in my Gregory Shasta. Going from 70 to 40 makes 40 feel like nothing.
The thing I don't get is when people find that "happy medium" where pack weight doesn't get in their way and/or really matter anymore, but still feel the need to re-buy all new stuff just to save 5 lbs and somehow think that they're "better backpackers" for doing so. Let's face it, we ALL could be UL if money was no object. Maybe people just have more money than me. If so, I can see saying "Why not buy new stuff?" The only thing I've changed in my kit over the past 3-4 years is that I bought a Thermarest Neoair to replace my Prolite 4. I did it for the comfort factor, not the weight/bulk factor. It saved me a full pound.
But so does chugging a pint of water before hiking on as opposed to carrying it. I think that gear selection and pack weight is just one of the few things people planning backpacking trips CAN obsess about. Other than that, there's just getting there, getting home, money, and walking. Take ANYTHING, and a certain number of people of do it will obsess about some aspect of it. Backpacking just doesn't have that many things to obsess about, so pack weight gets a lot of that attention. Personally, I obsess about what to buy my kids and wife as souveniers for "daddy/hubby being gone for a week or two every year".
Bigben
The problem is what is a "safety" item, can have too many variables....weather, health, ability, location, etc. There will always be that percentage that run into trouble, regardless the gear.
There is no substitute for personal experience. The more you know about yourself and your ability in different conditions, the better judge you will be on what you do or do not need.
I do agree with the op tho.....many (not all) of the ultra-lighters will plan their trip on the "best case scenario" gear wise and allow safety to be compromised. They are playing the averages and you can't argue with their success.
I do believe this is a plan eventually destined to fail. You will most likely be lucky several times and things will be fine, however the more you hike, the greater your risk for being unlucky.
My concern is inexperienced hikers seeing all of the postings on WhiteBlaze (and elsewhere) regarding the "need" to go lightweight (and ultra lightweight) and those same inexperienced hikers "pushing the envelope" by cutting too much weight too soon. -Prain4u
Like I said, valid pt. I get that message. Hope everyone else does too!
Generally speaking, you almost have to have some hiking experience in order to do lightweight or ultra lightweight hiking safely (and comfortably). - Prain4u
A heavier pack weight, in and of itself, does not equal greater safety (and too heavy of a pack has it's own added risks). However, a warmer sleeping bag will GENERALLY weigh more. Warmer clothes will GENERALLY weigh more. More food (with higher calories) will GENERALLY weigh more. etc. - Prain4u
Be careful with these statements though. Generalities can lead to misunderstanding. Not totally accurate.
It doesn't take a more experienced hiker, in terms of being able to use gear or be "safe"(whatever that means), to switch from a backpack that weighs 5- 6 lbs down to a comparable volumed backpack that is just as comfortable, perhaps more comfortable, for carrying the same amout of load wt that weighs 2 -3 lbs. Seems, when purchasing funds become available, largely a No Brainer to me.
Same with sleeping bags. Generally(there is that word again), sleeping bags that are warmer weigh more! CAREFUL! All kinds of misconceptions can arise here. When making that statement you have to compare bags that are both accurately temp rated, have the same fill, have the same level of fill, shell, size, etc. There are important characteristics in the finished product of a sleeping bag that can change, including the warmth of it, when these variables are altered. I'll venture to argue some of my lightest wt high end down sleeping bags will be warmer and weigh less than a lower temp rated bag of lower quality or with different features. More hiking experience not required. Some folks can switch from a sleeping bag that weighs 3- 3 1/2 lbs to a comprable fill and temp rated sleeping bag that weighs in the neigbhorhood of 2 -2 1/2 lbs. No extra specific added gear knowledge needed, just a willingness to go lighter. Not all sleeping bags are manufactured with the same high priority of weighing less. That can be said of many pieces of hiking gear.
Tents are another example. It takes no added experience to opt for a single man tent/shelter that weighs in at 2- 3 lbs, maybe less, rather than using one that can weigh more than 4 lbs.
These kinds of weight saving choices are what I think of as the often easier decisions to make, partricularly, if one is a beginner hiker and is transitioning to or has recently decided to lower pack wt. This is like Stage 1. In this stage, which I recommend to everyone, beginner or savvy experienced hiker, this is when most will notice their largest wt savings, in terms of POUNDS. Makes sense!
I would say to anyone newly seeking to lose some pack wt., get this stage right first, understand your hiking style, get some experience, and then move on to even lower wt gear if so desiring.
From there, it depends on how deep you want to go into the UL river. Ankle deep, waist deep. Chest deep. Or go for a swim and let the river sweep you away. It can become a fanatical UL merry-go-round that has a hiker more focused on chasing a virtual world pack wt. than actually backpacking if you let it!
Will talk about the later stages some more at another time. Perhaps, we can get some of the BPL and other UL gear wonks to share some of their Stage 89 UL must have gear secrets. I'm one of them, just decided to not ride the UL merry-go-round as much. Got to learn to laugh at yourself.
The majority of backpackers in the Southeast are waiting for the snow to melt and the temps to rise. I wonder why? It's because they don't want to carry the weight to get thru it and stay out. On one of my recent trips I was out during a long cold snap where for 10 days my night time temps never got above 10F(roving atop a 5,000 mountain most of the time). I didn't see a backpacker, an ultralight backpacker, someone with a tarp or someone with a hammock. Where were they? (BTW, a record was set in the Knoxville area for the longest cold snap under 32F since 1917--about 10 days).Originally Posted by prain4u
A couple months ago I was caught in another blizzard and found several people bailing due to too-light gear: a guy with a tarp who was caught in a cold wind and snow spindrift, a woman with a Prolite pad who bailed cuz she slept cold all night from the ground up. I had a new Thermarest 3.8R pad buried about 4 miles away and I offered to go get it for her but her mind was set to bug out.
Just my pack and tent come in at 16lbs, a frightful number to most, but then again they are for the most part fair weather types who wait for Spring. And when conditions 'improve' they'll be out again in droves, brainwashed in part by the corporate mantra that all gear is better if minimal and ultralight. This philosophy blinds the newbs and so they think they have to jump on the UL bandwagon, and we old codgers and geezors get to write about their mishaps.
If anyone wants a great short chapter on this whole subject, check out Solo Girl's PCT trek on Postholer.com and look for her emergency SPOT call when her UL system broke down.
http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=8688
See also my caveat that I wrote about knowing how to use your gear and having the experience. I wrote that part with her in mind.
I was caught in these conditions with lighter gear than her at 12500' plus FWIW:
I've also hike a fair bit. The chapter I wrote for Yogi's PCT handbook is specifically for people like the above website. Going light is great...going less then 10 lbs? Only if you know it works.
To repeat:
Remember, there is no such thing as the BEST GEAR. Find out what works for you for your personal safety, comfort and fun levels. Remember it is just gear in the end. We use gear to hike the trails . . . . we do not hike the trails to use gear.
Last edited by Mags; 02-23-2010 at 19:08.
Paul "Mags" Magnanti
http://pmags.com
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The true harvest of my life is intangible...a little stardust caught,a portion of the rainbow I have clutched -Thoreau
I have never tried winter camping, Tipi, You must be the King of it. I have however purchased gear that I could use in winter. I come in a little under you, my pack and tent are about 11 1/2 lbs. But I have tried my best to purchase lightweight gear when possible. Bought the Feathered Friends Winter Wren, Not bad at 2 lbs. My large NeoAir would probably not be suitable for winter unless I put like a Thermarest Luxury Map under it.
I am definitely a newbie to backpacking but have been an avid camper since 1984. Thanks for what you do, You have inspired some of my gear purchases.
And thanks for the compliment. I am not the king of winter camping although I do like to experience what winter has to offer. There's nothing like being out in it. There are some real kings of winter camping and many of them live up in your neck of the woods. And then there are the Arctic types who stay out for months.
I'm no expert on winter camping, in fact, I have never used crampons or snowshoes. I should of used crampons many times but didn't and instead I always took the 'fall-on-my-butt' approach and went without. But this winter has been especially "wintry" and cold and snowy, more than usual. Just during my last trip I was in three separate snowstorms. That's a lot for this neck of the woods(NC/TN mountains).
And Mags is right, with enough experience and willingness it's possible to encounter and survive, even thrive, in conditions which would repel most others. And to do so with minimal gear. Roman Dial's Arctic trek is proof of this. Sometimes the reason I carry so much gear is because I want to be caught in a 5 day blizzard and a below zero cold snap and sit tight. Hunker in. It's nice having a tiny warm nest in a howling maelstrom. And knowing I'm one of the lucky few who get to experience it.
I'm with you, I have purchased a lot of gear to be comfortable and prepared for whatever may happen. It's 30 degrees here in Gorham so it is actually pretty warm for this time of year. My M.R. G7000 came in today and my tent should be here in a couple days, I can't wait to get out there, I was going to wait until spring but I don't know if I will last that long. Maybe I will try winter backpacking!!
Just my pack and tent come in at 16lbs, a frightful number to most... Tipi wealter
Is that 16 lbs just pack and just tent? Nothing in the pack? LOL Is that listed wt your winter gear set-up? You must be a gorilla sized hiker or someone who limps a lot and probably has hip and back problems. Hey, at least you can say you are warm though. Only kidding TW. If it works for you happy hiking - I think.
More than likely, inexperienced hikers will tote too much because they don't know what to expect or what to bring, and that usually means heavy cheap gear. I've not known inexperienced to go ultralight
Technically Tipi is his dog's sherpa.
You have to undergo special training for that sort of work.
I'd go so far as to extend Tipi the title of honorary Canadian for his dedication to winter camping... Jak you wanna toss in a second to make it official? Not to mention he writes the most entertaining trail journal of the bunch...
Back to the topic at hand... Beginners most definitely get misled by some of the UL preachers on this site, and even aside from that bunch, the general trend pushed on this board is always "lighter is better."
Rewind back to your beginning days of hiking and remember staring at all that new swag the outfitter talked you into.. Filled with anticipation to hit the wilds and put your gear and your metal to the test, against mother nature... You pause briefly to puzzle over how your gonna fit all that gear in your pack.... Finally you squeeze it all in and you mount your "freedom" on your back for the very first time and quickly quake under the weight... Then you question yourself and wonder how this is gonna work...
Well, eventually we all end up here seaking answers and looking for advise, and the message repeatedly being shouted here is "lighter is better"... The more thoughtful ones will also include that experience is recommended... But basically the message recieved is, "lighten your load son"....
So you return to your hefty pack, and start pulling things out making decisions with no knowledge of the consiquences for your decisions...
So, perhaps folks, (looking at you ULers) could use a little restraint and recognize that they achieved their light weight over a period of trial and error... Learning their personal tollerances and an understanding of how they can expect their specific gear choices to work in a variety of conditions... Beginners have not...
Sure offer suggestions and advise, but be sure to include the full list of comprimises included in such weight saving schemes...
Nah. I'm still pissed about that awesome game Miller and company played.
They couldn't have saved that one for the Russians? Now we gotta play them.
Besides, I think the Tipsters more of a Renaissance man.
Personally, I prefer the winter even though it means a heavier pack. There are few people to take the "prime spots." Plus I get a kick out of building quinzees and snow caves, etc.
Could I pay more money to shave off a few ounces here or there? Yes. Do I want to? Nope! For example, I carry my Marine Corps scarf instead of a pricey smartwool balaclava. Is the latter better? You bet! But my scarf and watch cap do great to keep me nice and warm when I need it. Most of the time, the scarf stays home. I usually don't get that cold that I need to protect myself to that degree.
A lot of my decisions on gear are based on "bombproof." I could tear up an anvil, so I tend to go with gear that can stand up to the rigors of my use. I know I'm paying extra in price and weight, but it works for me.
Personally I don't obsess over weight. For most people that I've seen, the main weight they need to lose is NOT in their pack, but on their GUT! (Me included.)
Personally I don't obsess over weight. For most people that I've seen, the main weight they need to lose is NOT in their pack, but on their GUT! (Me included.)
Me too.
My pack is rated from 50 to 80+
If I lost 80 pounds I'd be right where I should be.
LOL! Perhaps not THAT extreme.
Bliisful, that's a good observation!
So, perhaps folks, (looking at you ULers) could use a little restraint and recognize that they achieved their light weight over a period of trial and error... Learning their personal tollerances and an understanding of how they can expect their specific gear choices to work in a variety of conditions... Beginners have not... - DAJA
Good pt. Another good observation, one in which Ulers making recommendations(some ULers do make it a pt to note this) and those that take those recommendations she be aware of. It is after all HYOH. I take that to mean - also be responsible for the decisions you make about your hiking!
You know, the whole these ULers remind me a lot of the guys who wrestled in high school wearing garbage bags under their sweats in class and refusing to swallow their spit us and spitting in their plastic bottles.
LOL! All to shave a few ounces and "make weight."
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