The Analysis of Technique vs. What is Good, Right and Just in Given Philosophies

[twodifferentsocks]

I just read this thread describing a young woman's use of the Spot system.

Back in my day (cue old man voice), we had the The American Canoe Association's "River Safety Report" and Seakayaker Magazine's monthly safety analysis plus their publication "Deep Trouble".

These publications were "safety articles primarily cover kayaking accidents. Their main purpose is education: to enable readers to learn from and avoid the misfortunes of others. Safety articles have two sections: a description of the incident, and an analysis underscoring the significant factors and discussing how to better handle similar situations. We encourage readers to inform us about accidents they’ve heard of or been involved in, and we make every effort to be sensitive to the needs of those involved." (http://www.seakayakermag.com/contrib...guidelines.htm)

These incident analyses do NOT include stories of the drunk and stupid, where Jim Billy's last words before he died on the river were, "Hold my beer." The incidents in these publications describe the tragedies or near misses of experienced paddlers.

Does the backpacking community have comparable publications?

The reason why I ask, is that I find most UL recommendations incomplete at best and ridiculous at worst. That could be because my apprenticeships were designed based on best practices defined in the early 90's by NOLS. I have grown extremely weary of the empty claims of the necessary "expertise and knowledge" needed for safe, comfortable UL travel. Most UL based recommendations on whiteblaze are without reference to specific evidence, example, trip duration, anticipated weather, actual weather encountered, distance per day, terrain encountered, TIME OF THE YEAR, LOCATION IN THE WORLD, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Most claims are without citation, appear boastful and nearly religious in demeanor. UL recommendations seem designed more to reduce Mankind's overall environmental footprint or the promotion of a dematerialistic society. What on Earth do these concerns have to do with successful and safe backcountry travel? Something else is driving the UL movement besides the joys of a lighter pack. There are philosophical and sociological drivers to this movement that IMO carry far too much weight in the design of technique.

Have UL techniques been properly and carefully vetted in the same fashion described in the publications above? What should I DO to gain scientific confidence in UL design? Besides freezing to death to gain the necessary 'experience' that many of you claim we collectively lack in abundance. What should I READ to gain scientific confidence in UL design? Besides the boorish and empty claims saturating this forum and that useless collection of advertisements Backpacker Magazine.

Who collects, analyzes, then promotes best practices these days? It used to be NOLS, but now according to various web forums, their training is considered outdated. HOGWASH!

How many SAR dollars have been invested fine tuning UL techniques?

*ducks*

[Mags]

I just walk and enjoy my lighter gear.

I'll leave the scientific discussions to those who have time for such things and perhaps less time for walking.


Read this book for a nice, non-gear wonkish view on minimalist techniques:
http://www.amazon.com/Lighten-Up-Com...4782927&sr=8-4

Go safe.
Be courteous.
Have fun.

Those are the only three "rules" for the outdoors. And how you do that can vary between different people based on experience,
abilities and desired type of trip. Notice I did not mention gear. IT is the least important part in the outdoors. Knowing what to take and how to use your tools is much more important.

BTW....speaking of NOLS approved techniques:
http://www.nols.edu/courses/location...kpacking.shtml

[Snowleopard]

AMC puts out lists of accidents in the White Mountains, a mix of hiking, climbing and skiing accidents. http://www.outdoors.org/publications...ember-2009.cfm
There's also Accidents in North American Mountaineering which is mostly climbing accidents, but some is relevant to hikers. http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/pro...ls.cfm?PC=1473

[Tinker]

What should I READ to gain scientific confidence in UL design? Besides the boorish and empty claims saturating this forum and that useless collection of advertisements Backpacker Magazine.

Try looking at www.backpackinglight.com.

Note: Backpacker Magazine doesn't promote ultralight hiking. They may talk about it, but the gear they recommend is middle of the road lightweight.
When considering ultralight hiking, try taking fewer toys first before buying new technology.
Some folks will never be ultralighters. Some, like me, were and have drifted back into the "lightweight" category.
As in all new endeavours, proceeding with caution is wise.

[Dogwood]

SOF, you just posted this under the "Can You Use a Bivy for the High Sierra" thread. Now you added What is Good, Right, and Just in Given Philosophies and started a new thread. I feel as if someone is preaching from the pulpit to get me to realize their church is the best. Kinda sounds like the intro to Superman - fighting for truth, justice, and the American way.

[twodifferentsocks]

What should I READ to gain scientific confidence in UL design? Besides the boorish and empty claims saturating this forum and that useless collection of advertisements Backpacker Magazine.

Try looking at www.backpackinglight.com.

Read this entry from the woman's journal that got into trouble in the Sierra's:

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=6266

Quote from the link above:
"So 2008 comes along and I joined a group of guys to winter camp in Northern Minnesota in February. These guys introduced me to backpackinglight.com (BPL), Henry Shires tarp tents, "ultralight" (UL) backpacking- they even talked about "super ultralight" (SUL) backpacking. It was see-the-light, aha, hallelujah, give me an amen kind of moment...I was converted-"

That quote was from the preparation portion of her PCT journal.

Now read this journal entry:
http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=8688

Quote from the link above:
"This is the day I labeled "Snow Storm" but I like to refer to it in my mind as the "Day 38- The Day I Thought I Was Going to Die, Hit 911 and Made a Complete Ass of Myself."

She just took a walk and enjoyed her lighter gear.

Maybe the scientific discussions should have existed for her to make an informed decision.

Do you guys feel any sense of responsibility for your words at all? Or do weakly worded and generalized disclaimers suffice?

When I sold a whitewater kayak to a new boater, I made sure that the man did not leave the store without a helmet...PERIOD. Before he left the store, he was given all of the connections, phone numbers, schedules and information, every opportunity he would ever need to safely enjoy the sport. This was not merely a demonstration of due diligence for liability purposes. I did it because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

This is serious **** gentlemen. I find the Laissez-faire attitude of the suggestions and advice provided by the members of this forum disturbing.

And that's about it. Take care guys.

[drastic_quench]

The AT is a walk in the woods -- woods that are within a day's drive of 2/3 of the entire US population. I've seen smaller safety nets at trapeze school.

Stay warm,
stay hydrated,
eat something,
and follow the clearly posted white blazes at a pace of your choosing.

These are all startling simple objectives. Why so serious? Where's the pile of hiker corpses whose final journal entries lament their quilt and tarp choice?

NOLS is great, but the AT isn't vertical mountaineering, white water rafting, or an exotically remote safari. Old women, six-year-olds, the morbidly obese, amputees, and a blind man have thru'd. All these folks managed to hike their own hike - whether they used bomb proof mountaineering tents that can hang off of the side of a sheer rock face, or cowboy camped with a shower curtain.

I'm certainly not standing in the way of any scientific surveys, but the situation is not remotely dire. Browse the non-scientific articles on Whiteblaze and you'll find sensible, tested, and middle-of-the-road advice. So it's weird to so earnestly question the quality of hiker advice here.

Advice, let's remember, for how to walk in the woods.

[Mags]

\
And that's about it. Take care guys.

Notice I said minimalist. Yet, you keep on talking GEAR.

Those that walk the walk (in a literal sense) know that gear discussion is bunk.

Take what you need to be safe and comfortable for *YOU.* I readily admit that comes with experience.

Generalist perhaps. But it is also true.

Those who talk about "scientific" methods of backpacking perhaps may not have hiked as much.

[Egads]

Discomfort is a good teacher and a rational mind grounds you.

Anyone attempting to hike SUL in adverse conditions should give thoughtful consideration to the gear in their pack & their experience base before heading out.

It would be foolish to head out in single digits with a 3-season bag because it weighs 16 oz. That is not what the SUL philosophy is about. I think that you just don't get it sof.

[Marta]

Ignorance regularly gets people into trouble no matter how heavy or light their packs. There's the annual spring break rescues in the Smokies where college students wearing jeans and sweatshirts get caught in a snowstorm, get soaked to the skin and hypothermic.

The simple point of view is to say that blue jeans are not sensible hiking attire, but a small army of thru-hikers wore them in the 70s. You just have to learn to manage your hike so you don't get into trouble.

Same thing with any kind of gear--light, heavy, or in between.

[Different Socks]

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with SOF. There are those of you that can and do go out to the woods with a UL state of mind. But too many are preaching this way of bping as "the" way of doing it now for the better of comfort, speed, distance, etc, etc.
That is a very dangerous way of going about it. Why do you think I posted for some help in trying to understand the UL concept? Even with all my years and miles of bping, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon just b/c so many of you say it is so much better.
Suggestions and ideas are ok, as long as the teller and the taker and going about it in a "I'll try it that way method. But w/o proper education or a class of some sort, I wouldn't tell someone to start right off the bat to go out and do UL. And yes, I do know they offer some classesfor UL.

[Tipi Walter]

Read this entry from the woman's journal that got into trouble in the Sierra's:

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=6266

Quote from the link above:
"So 2008 comes along and I joined a group of guys to winter camp in Northern Minnesota in February. These guys introduced me to backpackinglight.com (BPL), Henry Shires tarp tents, "ultralight" (UL) backpacking- they even talked about "super ultralight" (SUL) backpacking. It was see-the-light, aha, hallelujah, give me an amen kind of moment...I was converted-"

That quote was from the preparation portion of her PCT journal.

Now read this journal entry:
http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=8688

Quote from the link above:
"This is the day I labeled "Snow Storm" but I like to refer to it in my mind as the "Day 38- The Day I Thought I Was Going to Die, Hit 911 and Made a Complete Ass of Myself."

She just took a walk and enjoyed her lighter gear.

Maybe the scientific discussions should have existed for her to make an informed decision.

Do you guys feel any sense of responsibility for your words at all? Or do weakly worded and generalized disclaimers suffice?

When I sold a whitewater kayak to a new boater, I made sure that the man did not leave the store without a helmet...PERIOD. Before he left the store, he was given all of the connections, phone numbers, schedules and information, every opportunity he would ever need to safely enjoy the sport. This was not merely a demonstration of due diligence for liability purposes. I did it because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

This is serious **** gentlemen. I find the Laissez-faire attitude of the suggestions and advice provided by the members of this forum disturbing.

And that's about it. Take care guys.

Hey Sof, thanks for the great link, it gives me a whole bunch of stuff to copy and take out with me to read on my next backpacking trip.

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with SOF. There are those of you that can and do go out to the woods with a UL state of mind. But too many are preaching this way of bping as "the" way of doing it now for the better of comfort, speed, distance, etc, etc.
That is a very dangerous way of going about it. Why do you think I posted for some help in trying to understand the UL concept? Even with all my years and miles of bping, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon just b/c so many of you say it is so much better.
Suggestions and ideas are ok, as long as the teller and the taker and going about it in a "I'll try it that way method. But w/o proper education or a class of some sort, I wouldn't tell someone to start right off the bat to go out and do UL. And yes, I do know they offer some classesfor UL.

Most of us carry lightweight gear even though our packs may weigh 50 lbs or more, maybe even 75lbs. The sleeping bag I carry is rated for minus 15F and is 3.5lbs and is very light for its rating though no ULer would carry it. Very few backpackers carry "heavy" stuff, like iron skillets or a small library of books or canned foods or hatchets/axes or gallon glass jugs of apple juice, etc.

Humans are basically lazy, and no one wants to carry a lot of weight up a 3,000 foot climb or for 20 miles along a trail. And so we come to the UL philosophy which combines the need for speed and high mileage days with a very light kit. For the most part, UL backpacking only works with frequent resupply of fuel and food, or with short trips where food weight is not a consideration, like a weekend trip. Three days in the woods requires very little food. I'd like to see backpackers pull longer trips w/o resupply, in the 15 day range, and then see how they address their need for a 15 or 20 lb pack when the food load alone would be 30lbs, and do so in the middle of winter.

UL BANDWAGON
Commercially, the UL bandwagon has taken off and is big business. This in itself is not bad, though many newbs get bombarded with the UL mantra and mindset early on and think it's the highest way. I've seen several examples of backpackers with not enough gear for whatever conditions they are facing, whether it be a sudden blizzard in late April or a frozen hammock at zero degrees with high winds or a leaking bivy sack. Sometimes they refuse to carry the proper clothing for an extended stay in changing conditions, especially at higher elevations.

TOOLS FOR THE JOB
Often people say, "you need different tools for different jobs", like you need a four season tent for blizzards on high mountains and a Tarptent for 3 seasons on the AT. Or a tarp in the summer along with a light sleeping bag, and then a beefier arrangement in the winter with a thicker sleeping pad. The problem with the "Tool" theory is the same with a real tool when working on a house. We go to the roof with a hammer but we may find we need a screwdriver and a saw, too. It's the same with backpacking and herein lies the UL dilemma: Conditions change. And a piece of gear that could qualify as a "multi-tool" for the backpacker is usually heavier than a specialized "tool".

I knew two backpackers who planned a thruhike of the BMT last year and they had their standard light-to-UL load. Somewhere around 5,000 feet after leaving a river valley they hit snow on April 30 and canceled out their trip. So, what tool worked in the valley in warm weather didn't work later up high in a sudden cold snap and snowstorm. Long backpacking trips with no town visits or resupply require more versatile equipment, stuff that can handle the changing conditions of mountain weather, and stuff that is therefore heavier.

A good proof of this is to see the AT thruhikers on Trail Journals who start out in January or February and then get caught in a typical winter windstorm with snow and cold. When it gets to zero or 10 below, most of them high tail it to a town for the duration and wait it out. Why? Cause their tools are too specialized for the conditions and therefore limit their freedom, yet they are convinced that a lighter pack is better.

[Jonnycat]

Each individual is responsible for his or her personal safety.

The only way to ensure one's personal safety is through experience and common sense.

[The Weasel]

Well, SOF has maybe 20 or so posts on WB, and finds people's opinions here "disturbing." And he's upset that we don't have "citation" to everything, and no one repository of what is, under his definition, "good". And others here don't meet his expectations for what posts should contain.

Gosh. Didn't know ATTRoll sold him the site.

Well, folks, backpacking isn't really rocket science or, for that matter, practicing law. For either of those, "citations" make sense so you don't blow yourself up or send your client up the river for life on a jaywalking charge. For backpacking, it's kind of basic: Bring what you want, keeping in mind what you need. For ultralight backpacking, bring less of it. If you made a mistake and brought/left behind something that you needed/didn't need, remember that.

And share your experiences, even if SOF doesn't like the way you do.

TW

[sheepdog]

If you made a mistake and brought/left behind something that you needed/didn't need, remember that.

And share your experiences, even if SOF doesn't like the way you do.

TW

Good advice. I always make a note of something someone else is using that I like and things I wish I would have brought with me. I then add the note to my gear list. I forget less stuff that way.

[Mags]

I knew two backpackers who planned a thruhike of the BMT last year and they had their standard light-to-UL load.

I started Feb 12th with my standard kit.

Again, you all talk about GEAR.

I prefer experience, knowledge and adaptability over gear wonkery talk.

If you do not have the experience, knowledge and adaptability, you are going to SOL no matter what SOF states.

Finally, as an aside, while you talk about your extended stays please be honest: They are basecamp trips in the low woods with lowish mileage hikes throw in. A different mindset than say walking through the Sierra for 11 days w/o resupply.

Lets also be honest..we can eliminate this, and other stupid gear focused discussions by stating the obvious:

Take what you need for your own personal comfort and safety levels.

...and that my friends is the truth. For everyone it is different.

Still not sure of the point of the OP. Seems like he is pissing into the wind. But he is not even aiming.

[Jester2000]

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with SOF. There are those of you that can and do go out to the woods with a UL state of mind. But too many are preaching this way of bping as "the" way of doing it now for the better of comfort, speed, distance, etc, etc.
That is a very dangerous way of going about it. Why do you think I posted for some help in trying to understand the UL concept? Even with all my years and miles of bping, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon just b/c so many of you say it is so much better.
Suggestions and ideas are ok, as long as the teller and the taker and going about it in a "I'll try it that way method. But w/o proper education or a class of some sort, I wouldn't tell someone to start right off the bat to go out and do UL. And yes, I do know they offer some classesfor UL.

Well, you make a good point. Nobody, in my opinion, should be "jumping on the bandwagon" based on the experiences of others. I don't know of many on this site who would claim that their experiences are a good substitute for personal experience. But (and I could be misreading it) that doesn't seem to be SOF's point, or if it is SOF isn't very good at expressing it.

Is it really my responsibility to teach an adult that they shouldn't necessarily believe or trust or highly value everything they read on the internet?

Um, no.

Personally, I advocate starting out with a pretty heavy pack. I tell prospective thru-hikers to take everything they think they'll need, because they can always get rid of it if they decide they don't want it. And that, for the most part, is how the majority of UL people on this site have come to be UL people -- through personal experience, gradually paring down and changing gear as they came to realize what they did and didn't need.

So when SOF says this in another thread:

That woman in the Sierras didn't have a chance to reject poor advice. That's the point.

The internet is full of poor suggestions, without citation, without evidence and levied by self made experts whose resume has no independent certification. And this forum is a fountainhead.

I have to disagree. She had a chance to reject bad advice. She took advice from people she didn't know, and jumped on a bandwagon she was unprepared to ride on. That's HER bad judgement. And if you read the article, I find it worth noting that the one piece of gear that caused all of the problems -- a SPOT device -- is the one piece of gear she mentions that most UL people I know wouldn't carry.

And as for this site being a fountainhead of poor suggestions, I'd note that again, any site is going to have people making suggestions that each individual must weigh against what they know about themselves. I should also note that despite this site being apparently awful, it didn't stop SOF from thanking everyone for their great advice in a different thread:

Thanks everyone Thanks to this forum, I've got my Early March Base wt to 25 lbs, carrying 'most' of what I want. Including a fancy-dancy bear canister so I NEVER have to hang a bag again! And the raccoons won't eat my Wheaties on the ICW anymore! Yay!

Why the change in heart? Who knows? Perhaps a raccoon got into SOF's Wheaties.

[pyroman53]

The Trail Journal entries from the woman in the Sierras details a few of mistakes made unrelated to the type and weight of her gear. We’ve all been there, tired, wet and cold and faced with quickly getting camp set up in order to warm up. If you pull it off, in a few minutes you’re in your sleeping bag and all is warm and cozy. In her case, apparently she waited too long and was too cold and too inexperienced to pull it off. That’s where experience comes in – to know when to bail and have the ability to pull it off – regardless of what gear you’re carrying. Sometimes its a fine line and I know I'm still learning.

[twodifferentsocks]

Well, you make a good point. Nobody, in my opinion, should be "jumping on the bandwagon" based on the experiences of others.

I think that's why I am so pissed off. I found myself jumping on the bandwagon. I find myself today, with the opportunity to take that journey I've always dreamed about. So I began researching...and what did I find? I found that in the last 10 years, nearly everything that I was taught, nearly everything that I read in the 90's, had been improved upon.

Techniques had advanced greatly. Widespread enthusiasm for the new ways was EVERYWHERE. Every forum, website, manufacturer catered to a new breed of traveler, the ultralight backpacker. There must be something to it, I told myself. Just look at how many people go on an on and on about it!

So I prostrated myself as a newcomer, admitted what I knew to be true may not be true. I made my best effort to become as good a student as possible, a follower. I prepared to bathe in fresh, new ideas, it was exciting!

The UL strategy seemed seductive and facinating. Every move in the wilderness, could be micro managed, increasing the efficiency and effectivenness of every movement. Like some complex algebraic equation.

The style I was taught was clunky. Every contigency was listed, then strategy, technique and hardware was allocated to compensate.

The style I was taught was overkill. Best practices, first developed by hardcore high alpine mountaineers, then trickled down to backpackers in say North Carolina, where many were barely relevant.

But today, it seemed that backpackers had finally formed a voice for themselves. Backpackers had created their own highly efficient and effective techniques, their own language, thank you very much mountaineers. We have no need to dine at the scraps of the alpine climbing table. Nor will we be slaves to the Backpacker magazine marketing machines either.

This new conciousness, or UL movement (as best I could defined it), was powerful, everywhere. And in the beginning, just 21 posts ago, and hundreds of hours of research later I have determined that the movement may be form over substance. BTW-SOF stands for Substance Over Form

I guess I'm angry at myself, for getting swept away with the energy of it all.

By prostrating myself as a beginner, fully discounting my knowledge and experiences in the hope that this great wave of energy behind the UL movement HAD TO BE THE BEES KNEES, I found little evidence outside of puffery. Evidence. Evidence is the result of case analyses. And I have found very few.

In the end, I'm going to my own hike, but to the beginners like that woman in the sierras, she didn't have another body of knowledge like myself to compare these new concepts.

I'm embarrassed at myself, for believing the hype.

/sorry, I am the most melodramatic dude I have ever met, but its true, I feel like a horses ass. I have enjoyed lightening my load a bit though, but the more I read the more I imagine how many people are going to learn the hard way. I feel bad for that girl. She didn't have to experience that and neither did her parents.

EPIRBs have always caused trouble. Oh my God. I just googled EPIRB, and their not called that anymore. Their called GPIRBs. I am outdated!

[Mags]

I don't see any form or substance in these posts.

I prefer the term minimalist myself. Less emphasis on gear and more on knowledge and technique (and love of the mountains)


Norm Clyde carried tons of books, pots and god-knows-what else.

John Muir carried a long wool coat, a loaf of bread and tea.

Yet, both are revered as Sierra legends.

...and no one gives a sh** what gear they used.

People who discuss gear instead of the love of the mountains are frankly boring. I'd hate to run into you on the trail. You'd give me a lecture like that guy I met in the San Juans. (Post 4)