Hospitality and Complicity

[beakerman]

I’ve witnessed these people that "trap, trick, lure (whatever)" thru-hikers in for "trail magic" after a required sermon.

Yeah I never understood the reasoning behind the hostility that some folks have for religion. I'm an atheist--probably the only atheist scoutmaster in the world--I never get upset if someone wants to pray over their food. i might get a litttle concerned about it...is it so bad they need devine intervention to make it palatable? Or even if someone wants to pray for my mortal soul. Hey I'm big enough to acknowldge i may be wrong. Someone has to be wrong about religion and i figure what harm can there be in someone expressing concern for my eternal well being or shoot even my safe passage between where I am and where I'm headed?

I think it's wrong to accept hospitality in any form then complain about it regardless of the sales pitch that went along with it. If you don't ever want to find yourself having to listen to someone tell ou about what they believe then stay at home in you little corner of the world weher you can have an enclave of folks that think exactly like you. If your faith or lack there of is so weak that a little preaching or giving thanks at meal time is painful then perhaps you need to reevaluate your belief system anyway. It's caled having manners..you listen to the viewpoints of others.

[Dogwood]

12 tribes has their belief system but they don't push anything on anyone. As for being a cult I disagree although I have jokingly refered to them as such in the past also. I had my concerns prior to staying there, as you do, but my fears were quickly allayed. They are happy giving people whose agenda is to be kind and hospitable to weary hikers, not to recruit or push their religion on unsuspecting travelers. If you are there and have questions they will be more than willing to discuss their beliefs with you but again, without being pushy. It's a great hostel.....

I agree. I've stayed at The 12 Tribes 3 times while hiking the AT and LT. Never had a problem. Never felt uncomfortable or was compelled to do anything that I wasn't prepared to do in anyone else's home. No, I don't wear my own hand-made clothing, grow a long beard, worship like them, have given over all my possessions to them, or am married to one of the members of the 12 Tribes, etc. No one has ever tried to push anything on me while I stayed there. They have always treated me with respect and I likewise do the same towards them. If you lend them your ear, yes, they will share their beliefs with you, as I'm sure anyone will. If you feel uncomfortable staying with them then don't. Plenty of other places to stay in or near Rutland while hiking the trail.

[Dogwood]

It seems everytime 12 Tribes is mentioned it gets into this long winded dicussion/debate about God and/or religion. In the end Ridgewalker77, you have to ask yourself, "am I OK with sharing/accepting something with someone who doesn't share my exact brand of morality or beliefs?" or "how tolerant of others am I really?"

[Frosty]

Baptists are pretty much the reason for religious freedom in the United States (yes, sometimes we forget this),

I wasn't aware of this. Could you elaborate, please? PM is fine if you don't want to post it. Thanks.

[Frosty]

It seems everytime 12 Tribes is mentioned it gets into this long winded dicussion/debate about God and/or religion. In the end Ridgewalker77, you have to ask yourself, "am I OK with sharing/accepting something with someone who doesn't share my exact brand of morality or beliefs?" or "how tolerant of others am I really?"

The 12 tribes are tolerant and okay with others who don't share their beliefs? I don't know much about them, but reading the links Wolf posted above, I do not get a feeling of tolerance and accepting other beliefs.

[ridgewalker777]

The "complicity" issue is a complicated idea. Is "feeling uncomfortable" a sound basis for accepting or rejecting something? I prefer right reason as a basis for judgment. My bias is as a Bible-believing traditional Christian. If a gay person wants to give me a ride, fine, as long as he doesn't look to convert me. There are levels of sophistication with various people's belief systems and what they are trying to achieve. I'm fine with a benign sermon as a condition for hospitality. But if it's a guilt-tripping, Bible-thumping, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sort, I say pelt the preacher with rotting fruit. The guy who frequents the "Yellow Deli" is in a good position to button-hole the leaders, who to my knowledge, live there. But I doubt he has the nerve.
The question is: "Do they have an 'enemies' list?" How does this comport with Matthew 5,6, and 7? They say they are the only ones who really keep the Bible. Good. Then they need to be accountable to what they say they follow...

[modiyooch]

This is a complicated problem that I am looking for help in thinking through. When is accepting hospitality a problem when you stay, as with "The Twelve Tribes" in Rutland, a known cult? Is it better to spend the $$ instead of staying with a person(s) who has ulterior motives? I would appreciate feedback on this issue, especially with the current economic crisis, we can't always we moral purists in deciding whose hospitality we accept. However, there is a saying that the cheapest accomodations are sometimes the most expensive in other ways.

ok, I'll bite. Use discernment, and based on that discernment act accordingly. We need to be careful, as not to fall. Typically, one gets tested where he thinks he is the strongest. I think it's more of an issue of protection of one's beliefs, as opposed to appearing as complicit. Be careful where you dabble. May cost more in the long run.

[Mountain Maiden]

This is a complicated problem that I am looking for help in thinking through. When is accepting hospitality a problem when you stay, as with "The Twelve Tribes" in Rutland, a known cult? Is it better to spend the $$ instead of staying with a person(s) who has ulterior motives? I would appreciate feedback on this issue, especially with the current economic crisis, we can't always we moral purists in deciding whose hospitality we accept. However, there is a saying that the cheapest accomodations are sometimes the most expensive in other ways.

My Mother had a simple solution for questions like this:

"When in doubt--DON'T."

Hasn't failed me yet.
S
PS She also used to say "When you think you ought to--you should!"

[weary]

I would never stay at the 12 tribes just to get free lodging and food. I would probably stop out of curiosity -- to see for myself a place that has drawn so much ire on White Blaze. I'd even go to their meetings if invited. I like to explore new ideas and perspectives.

But then I'm a confirmed non believer. I doubt if I would be tempted by any of their actions and kindnesses.

Weary

[rambunny]

Ya know alot of homeless shelters will give you a meal & a bunk for the price of listening to their belief.I agree that things should be up front for the hiker to decide where if anywhere to lodge.Have never heard anything bad about 12 tribes,i would like to state that every hiker has a grievious responsibility to only pass truth not gossip. It shocks me when someone asks me about gossip that is 15 years old about places on the trail.My reply is always-you are not doing enough miles!

[Jack Tarlin]

It's pretty simple: If you feel remotely uncomfortable or uneasy about a place, you should probably find somewhere else to stay.

And on another note, Mowgli mentioned above that he wouldn't tip at a place where the management keeps the employee's tips, presumably without the customers knowing where their money was actually going.

Hmmmm.

I have plenty of friends who are servers at restaurants, and I not only wouldn't tip at a place that cheated their employees and customers in this fashion, but I probably wouldn't want to eat there either. In most places, it's not merley unethical for management to keep their employees' tip money, but it's also patently illegal.

[Spokes]

This is a complicated problem that I am looking for help in thinking through. When is accepting hospitality a problem when you stay, as with "The Twelve Tribes" in Rutland, a known cult? Is it better to spend the $$ instead of staying with a person(s) who has ulterior motives? I would appreciate feedback on this issue, especially with the current economic crisis, we can't always we moral purists in deciding whose hospitality we accept. However, there is a saying that the cheapest accomodations are sometimes the most expensive in other ways.

It's a Zen thing:
I knew some hikers who were uncomfortable answering the famous "dinner question" at Elmer's but they still ate and paid $$ their room stay there.

Hmmm, did each act cancel out the other?

[The Weasel]

Hospitality can be selfless, or it can have an agenda. Often you won't know which it is until you've accepted it, and you can be surprised to find out that you've guessed wrong; a church group might provide food or a place to stay with no evangelism other than knowing that it was from that church, yet someone else with no visible ties to any group may offer a bed, dinner and begin a screed about their beliefs and your need to accept them. If you're succeptible, for any of a number of reasons, to being preached at, or if such things rub you the wrong way, the only safe bet is to decline all offers. If you're willing to risk it, accept them. But even where you disagree (or don't yet agree) with the "lure," try to be nonjudgmental in your attitude. Not just to be polite; in the event that the "cult" ends up having the One, True and Correct Word of God(s), it is useful not to be on their 'doom list.'

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

There's a third alternative, Weasel: One can accept the hospitality, and if the situation then becomes unpleasant, one should leave.

I know of several people who were invited into someone's home near the Trail and were offerred desert and coffee.

Everything was lovely until the hosts informed the hiker that due to their present religious status, in addition to being on the A.T., the hiker was also on the path to hell.

The hikers thanked their hosts for their hospitality and immediately left the house.

Nobody should ever stay where they don't feel comfortable or respected.

[The Weasel]

Too true.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

I wish I could remember the direct quote (and I'd also like to cite the source), but I recently read "Just because you're convinced you're on the right path, don't assume you're also on the only one."

There are undoubtedly some places and folks on the Trail (as elsewhere) who would do well to learn this.

[Reid]

1 John 4:1

[Jack Tarlin]

Yup. And it's reiterated in even stronger terms in Matthew 7:15.

[Reid]

I wasn't aware of this. Could you elaborate, please? PM is fine if you don't want to post it. Thanks.

Not sure about freedom but if you trace back your local hospital and other institutions formed in goodwill you will see that they are all founded in Christian principles.

As for other religions, I'm not prepared to say they are not valid in any way. But I do know this. Jesus Christ himself said that "I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father except through me." Now the Bible also cleary states that God has the ability to judge the intentions in our hearts so as I Christian I do believe that you will see Jesus when you die but that he also can judge us accordingly so that yes, even other religions can be exceptable at times. I know the OP didn't ask for my thoughts on religion and here we are again debating it. But I do know that often when the sun is high in the sky and everyone's feeling great there's often no need for God. But even the Atheist, as he lies in his bed at night alone and the world comes rushing in and our thoughts and dreams and our view of reality.....words will only bring down to life and make seem stupid and feeble....then he'll believe.....if only for a minute. If you were wondering......no, you can't have a conversation about religion without me jumping in and running my own agenda out of my mouth.

[Reid]

Yup. And it's reiterated in even stronger terms in Matthew 7:15.

That's a good one.