Alright, just one more time…

[beakerman]

ok let's talk about this link you quickly posted....

I quote directly from the second paragraph: "...medications, etc., are finding their way into the environment via human and animal excreta from disposal into the sewage systemﾗi.e., flushing unused medication down the toiletﾗand from landfill leachate that may impact groundwater supplies. Agricultural practices are a major source and 40 percent of antibiotics manufactured are fed to livestock as growth enhancers. Manure, containing traces of pharmaceuticals, is often spread on land as fertilizer from which it can leach into local streams and rivers. Conventional wastewater treatment isnﾒt effective to eliminate the majority of pharmaceutical compounds."

First point to be made is this is about dumping bottles of the stuff into the toilette not what naturally passes. I'm not saying that none passes. You can see from my previous lengthy post that even ibu comes through at about 33% so there is a load (now there is seriously no pun intended there) to be considered but when you consider most prescription drug dosages this becomes trivial in the grand scheme of things unless you happen to have a pack of geriatric hikers.

Secondly the last sentence I quoted proves my previous point about sewer treatment/CWA--it only handles solids not dissolved chemicals. Your prior assertion that the waste treatment process of sedimentation (removal of solids) would do the trick is...well just plain wrong by your own source. Sure some of the drugs go with the solids but the rest stay in solution and get dumped into the outfall of the treatment plant...untouched. And what does your sewer treatment plant do with it's filter cake? I can tell you from experience what most of them do...they send some to a lab to get analyzed via a procedure called TCLP (toxicity characterisitc leachate procedure) which covers 100 or so compounds--mostly pesticides, herbicides and petrochemical contaminants. Then if that passes they send it to a landfill. So by packing it out all you are doing is moving it from several small well dispersed sources to one very localized source that still does little to deal with the chemistry problem. It will however reduce the spread of Giardia et. al. but then again so will proper water treatment and proper water treatment will have a more immediate effect on a hiker than packing out his poo will: i.e. he won't get sick if he treats properly where as if he packs it out his pack jsut got heavier (too bad for him) and then there is the old out of sight out of mind thing working there too. It's an attitude problem with that portion of the argument and other than acknowledge it I wish to comment no further on it.

I'll answer your quesiton then you answer mine: The reason it is illegal to have an outhouse is simply population density. Think of the folks out in the country. They all have septic systems. Those bad boys treat for nothing---all they do is digest those solids again. I have no information on what the enzyme/bacterial action does to the prescriptions but I'd bet very good money that it's less effiecient than the minimal treatment that gets done at the local municipal plant. Furthermore those septic systems are typically 2 part systems a tank to digestion and a leach field. That leach field is where all the liquids go as the solids settle out in the tank and the tank usually has a gravel/open bottom so liquids that don't flow out to the leach field trickle down through the sludge and out the bottom. I'm sure you have heard the saying about where the grass is greenest--and I'm not talking about the other side.

With the permit to put a septic system in is the consideration of where the water sources are, percolation rates, drainages, rock formations and permeability. That is because of the massive quantity of stuff in the system and it's persistent presence. The septic system takes up a good chunk of land and because of this they can't have folks jsut doing it in the back yard. As you say if you go in your back yard everyday your yard will fillup very fast. I contend that your back yard is not, repeat not, a healthy ecosystem. It is for all intents and purposes a monoculture of some mutant strain of grass and then you figure in all the chemistry that goes into keeping it that way. You have no flora/fauna to handle said deposits. Look at when your dog craps in your back yeard as opposed to on the side of the trail.The stuff along the trail lasts very little time because there are organisms in that ecosystem that deal with that sort of thing. Otherwise crap would be knee deep just from the deer and bear right?

So given that by your own source the chemical load is not leaving the waterways via sewer treatment what is to be gained by packing it out other than the potential of bacterial contamination which is easily enough handled by proper treatment. I will conceed that it may reduce waterborne illness but so will water treatment.

Now my question that you didn't answer--at least that I saw: What do you do with your big bag--the dry bag you packed all the poo in? Are they reusable or does the system you are advocating make them one time only devices? By one time I mean one mass dumping not each movement. You certainly can't carry them with you on any public transportation...that is a violation of a whole basket of health and DOT codes. So throw me a bone and tell me how many cycles (fill/empty) do you get out of a single bag?

[beakerman]

Oh I also forgot to add the amphibians are dieing because of a fungal infection. I read aboutthat in NG a few months ago. if they get innoculated aginst it they can beat the infection but if not they have like a 95% death rate. The fungus is naturally occuring.

[The Weasel]

Beakerman:

My 'dry bag' never gets dirty, since the contents are in paper bags. But after each trip, I wash it out fully with soap and water, and let it dry. Then it is reused.

As for the article, that is one that shows the problem, found by Google in a few seconds. As for population density, that's my point: There are tens of thousands of people using most stretches of the AT and other similar trails each year, and after a few years, that adds up to use density as much as in residential rural areas or even suburbs. Not all parts, perhaps, but a lot of trail is like that, and a lot of that is in areas with poor soils that allow leaching.

Wildlife deaths and deformities are not just due to 'natural' sources. We're seeing huge problems due to water pollution from runoff.

Against this, carrying out TP and, where possible, solid waste is easy, safe, sanitary and beneficial

TW

[beakerman]

Ok see that was were I was getting hung up--those "dry bags" are kind of pricey and are hard nt he environment to make. If you reuse it then OK I'll buy that for a dollar.

I agree that parts of the trail are being heavily impacted by the traffic. That is a problem but again I point out that if these folks can't bury it properly how do you think they are going to be able to manage carrying it out? I'm just pointing that out. It's not a major arguement against what you do nor is it one for what I do because I'm pretty sure I can manage it being I am capable of burying it properly in the first place. I burn my TP so there is very little of that left to worry about anyway.

At this point I see no real issue with packing it out but the chemistry arguments for doing so are weak in my opinion.

[Nean]

What I wonder is flushing the filled paper bags. One at a time I'd guess! Seems that might clog a toilet- regardless. ?

[Summit]

If you carry poop and used TP around with you in your pack, please, PLEASE don't brag about it and show it to me! Best that I never know about it!

[Wilson]

Deuteronomy 24: 12-13 You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine. You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement.

Burying it was good enuff for the Hebrews, good enuff for me. There's nothing new under the Sun.

[The Weasel]

My dry bag is nothing more than a waterproof stuff sack, with a rolling snap closure. I've used it for years. If you use a waterproof sack of any kind, you're having no more (and no less) "environmental" effect than me, even if you use it for your clothing. (I don't use an extra stuff sack for anything other than my sleeping bag, so I think I'm ahead of the game there.)

As for clogging with bags, I'll repeat it again: When you are at a toilet (with permission) or a sanitary disposal station, you open your dry bag or ziploc, take out the paper bags, EMPTY THEM, and then throw them away where proper. Since you used (I hope!) kitty litter to dry your solid waste sufficiently, there should be no residue in the bags.

TW

[The Weasel]

Burying it was good enuff for the Hebrews, good enuff for me. There's nothing new under the Sun.

Slavery, killing your mistress' husband so you can marry her, sleeping with your daughters, and having children killed who make fun of your baldness were also acceptable to the ancient Hebrews, according to the Bible (which may or may not be accurate, but that's not the point). While those things may have been good enough for them, they aren't for modern Hebrews or, God be thanked, almost everyone else.

There are a lot of new things under the Sun. Protecting the Earth is, to our peril, belatedly one of them.

TW

[Nean]

Just remember that every piece of trash that the caretaker has to sift through and pick out...he or she has to pack out for you.

Composting can go very easy for them...or very very difficult. Definitely the best privy system all through the whites and huge amounts of effort go into it. That picture is 1....1 collector bin of how many, I don't know the exact number.

But simple fact is John your right, composting privies use "duff" as the natural composting material and a cat hole, properly done, does the same thing. No difference, and on a much smaller scale.

Have you ever wondered why the have the privy system or so many composting latrines on the AT? Just take a look around the perimeter of any shelter that doesn't have one and you'll have your answer.

As you correctly pointed out- "huge amounts of effort go into it" I HAVE helped w/ the composting up there. As the picture you provided shows paper tends to be the last to compost. People leave their trash in the latrines for the same reason you bury your trash in the woods. They think its cool and they don't care.

Thank you for sharing how you bury your litter, but you never gave reasons why - other than to say there is "no difference" between that and the weeks of work and huge effort it takes to compost in the Whites. Kid yourself my friend- it's not close. Even when you bury your trash proper there is no way you can guarantee it won't be dug up in that "soft soil" you always manage to find, soon after you leave. Throwing your beer cans in the lake would be closer to being the same.

Doesn't matter if you are "a terrible person" or a good ol' boy. Only nice people give valid advise?? Experience, facts and common sense are better indicators than perceived niceness. Con artist are successful by coming across as wonderful people! The good ol boy mantra of got r done, good enuff, can't see it from my house-- seems to be the- reason- given here for not packing out ones trash.

By all means, if one does not have the wherewithal to burn a few pieces of TP w/o burning down the forest- pack it out instead!

I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the duff you mention has to flown in and its not leaves from your yard either. But there is a reason they go to the trouble. Can you imagine what the Whites would look like today w/o those latrines?? Much nastier than a few squares folded into my trash squeemish ones. And BTW, one zip is all it takes for all my trash (and a bunch of others) between towns. Why would you waste a zip for everyday?

It wasn't that long ago people looked down there nose at recycling, organics, lightweight gear. Now its mainstream.
The world evolves everyday and some fall behind- doesn't mean you can't catch up.

[beakerman]

TW...

Like I said I've got to think on this. I still contend all you are doing is moving the problem from one place to another (save for bacteria issues). Under my current practice I see no need to pack out my TP--I burn it so it is essentially a non-issue.

I would need accurate statistics to make any kind of intelligent judgements about various segments of any trail. Numbers of visitors per mile and the frequency of those visits along with what practices they are using--are they deep enough and far enough off the trail and so on. I don't think that information is availible. I smell a grant proposal...I could hike the trail and get paid for it to keep tabs on the habits of the visitors.

We have had some good exchange of information here...plenty of food for the brain that is for sure. If you ever find yourself down here in the great state of Texas, particularly in and around Houston drop me a line and I'll buy you a beer or what ever your poison is...we can trade notes on this.

[Dr O]

Deuteronomy 24: 12-13 You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine. You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement.

Burying it was good enuff for the Hebrews, good enuff for me. There's nothing new under the Sun.

Deuteronomy 23: 1
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

That's good advice, don't get wounded in the stones, and don't cut your privy member off. Words to live by.

[The Weasel]

Beak ---

I'll have that beer. LoneStar is good stuff.

As for measuring it, go ahead. But sometimes, you don't need to quantify a problem to know you have a problem: TP left on the trail all too often becomes visual pollution. The science has already been done on the spread of giardia in the backcountry by (in part) human waste being buried. Many people don't bury waste properly (200' from water, etc) even when they think they are doing so. These are obvious problems even in places that are sturdier than, say, Ranier glaciers and the Colorado River in Grand Canyon NP. Leaching is a self-evident problem. And so on.

I lived by the Detroit River before Rachel Carson's book was popular, and we didn't need to have it "studied" to know it was dying. I drove through Niagara Falls/Buffalo years before Love Canal, and we didn't need to have the air and ground "studied" to know it was terrifyingly dangerous. Yes, studying a problem can tell us much about it, but we can identify problems without studies, and then start correcting them even as we learn more about them.

We don't cook over open fires; we carry stoves. We don't bury tin cans; we pack them out. We know why, without studying why. (And, as to trash, yes, we're just "moving the problem around, but that doesn't justify leaving trash along the trail.) The time is now to carry out TP and waste.

I'll enjoy that beer.

TW

[MOWGLI]

This **** is getting old. (should we bury it or carry it out)

[Wilson]

Protecting the Earth is, to our peril, belatedly one of them.

TW

We can't protect the earth no more than we can destroy it. When the earths time is over, its over. We'll already be extinct as a species way before then anyway...Toilet paper matters not.

BTW, I hate to see it laying around, so simple to just cover it up.

[Wilson]

Deuteronomy 23: 1
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

That's good advice, don't get wounded in the stones, and don't cut your privy member off. Words to live by.

HA! I just knew somebody would find that and post it...thanks

[Homer&Marje]

Ahhh the poo thread is almost over. It was a good one though...could have been a Cronkite special

All kidding aside..he was a good guy. Probably wouldn't report, on poo

[Wilson]

All conversations by middle age men eventually center around it. That or farting.

[The Weasel]

Ahhh the poo thread is almost over. It was a good one though...could have been a Cronkite special

All kidding aside..he was a good guy. Probably wouldn't report, on poo

He did.

"Arthur C. Clarke, preeminent science fiction author of “The Sentinel,” which was the basis of “2001: A Space Odyssey,” famously said to Walter Cronkite, “There is no such thing as waste, there are only resources we are too stupid to know how to use.”'

http://solidwastedisposalnj.234487.f...s-release.com/

TW

[beakerman]

Beak ---

I'll have that beer. LoneStar is good stuff.

As for measuring it, go ahead. But sometimes, you don't need to quantify a problem to know you have a problem: TP left on the trail all too often becomes visual pollution. The science has already been done on the spread of giardia in the backcountry by (in part) human waste being buried. Many people don't bury waste properly (200' from water, etc) even when they think they are doing so. These are obvious problems even in places that are sturdier than, say, Ranier glaciers and the Colorado River in Grand Canyon NP. Leaching is a self-evident problem. And so on.

I lived by the Detroit River before Rachel Carson's book was popular, and we didn't need to have it "studied" to know it was dying. I drove through Niagara Falls/Buffalo years before Love Canal, and we didn't need to have the air and ground "studied" to know it was terrifyingly dangerous. Yes, studying a problem can tell us much about it, but we can identify problems without studies, and then start correcting them even as we learn more about them.

We don't cook over open fires; we carry stoves. We don't bury tin cans; we pack them out. We know why, without studying why. (And, as to trash, yes, we're just "moving the problem around, but that doesn't justify leaving trash along the trail.) The time is now to carry out TP and waste.

I'll enjoy that beer.

TW

Agreed but shouldn't policy be set by science not what gives a clean conscience particularly when it comes to health? I am proposing a study to determine the extent of the problem so it can be managed or eliminated in a sensible fashion rather than what could be terms a knee jerk/feel good reaction.

as for beer might I suggest a shiner instead? It's a bit more flavorful than Lone Star and by far my favorite of the local. I still prefer Yeunglings but I just can't get it here yet...I need more yankee transplants to build a market for it.