Appalachian Trail Vital Signs Technical Report NPS/NER/NRTR--2005/026,
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/...N_01302006.pdf
Yeah I don't even let my wife read this site...she'd send me off to the loony bin in a heart beat. I can hear her now: "Let's see you all sit around on you computers and discuss long distance backpacking? Why not just do it?" I can't say that I disagree with her on that point.
Yeah TW has me thinking and your post (pyro) is giving me more cause to consider packing it out. However I don't like the idea of adding more plastic to the waste stream there has to be a better way. I know I'm smarter than who ever dreamed up plastic bags and canb come up witha better solution than that. Maybe a resusable bag or biodegradable bag of some sorts but blue plastic bags really? That's the best you can do?
Take almost nothing I say seriously--if it seems to make no sense what so ever it's probably meant as a joke....but do treat your water!
IMO, your wife's evaluation is correct.Originally Posted by pyroman53
For those at least thinking on the issue, consider packing out your TP. There is no sanitation problem in your pack (put it in ziplocs, and if you're worried about the smell, which really doesn't occur if you compress air out of it, about 1/3 cup of cat litter), it is light, and it makes a difference.
In those areas (such as Shasta and Ranier) which are already using blue bags, there are human waste receptacles. The bags, and contents, go into sewage treatment plants which dispose of the waste (including the plastic) in an environmentally appropriate manner.
Yes, the NPS is very concerned about the contamination in GSMNP and other eastern parks from human waste. That's why they are spending very substantial amounts of money for composting toilets, and directing that catholes/latrines are not permitted by shelters where those are present.
I'm sorry, folks: These are simple solutions, there is no major problem with packing waste out, and it's no more difficult or unsanitary (if done properly, which is easy) than packing out your other waste. If you don't want to, you won't. But don't try to say that it's not a problem. It is.
TW
"Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service
i can see where high usage areas and fragile alpine zones could be negatively impacted if everyone decided to doodoo wherever they pleased, but for the most part they don't, so mostly it isnt a problem. the report does indicate a few areas where wonton piles of caca might be a problem, then fine address those, but to suggest every steaming stack of plop is a problem is just ridiculous. that crapenzy has to go somewhere, using fossil fuel carbon tonage towage, and the plastic and kitty litter deal is not exactly environmentally neutral. every action has a consequence and i have seen nothing here that discusses that.
anway, carry on, i am headed out first light. i will ask the amc for their thoughts about how high we have to pole vault over mouse turds (yes, it is a reference to sgt rock's comments on spirited wb 'discussions')
cheers
When you say "But don't try to say that it's not a problem. It is.", please define the problem. I can only see two possible problems; one is aesthetics the other is health. Both problems are easy to avoid, by just avoiding those areas, such as the "toilet areas" and in some cases the privies.
I’ve seen many composting privies on the AT and the vast majority are not much better than the normal privies (there are some exceptions). The reason is because there’s no maintenance conducted on them, aerobic composting requires work, and without work the accumulated pile will decompose in an anaerobic manner.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to replenish those litter buckets in the composting privies, but even if everyone added the litter the pile will still need turning and almost no one does that. The pile does decompose, but slower and stinker than if maintenance was done. And that’s why I’ve learned to just avoid all privies nowadays.
But as for composting what’s the difference between a privy that has a very large pile accumulated and a public "toilet area"? The difference is that you don’t have to walk around a minefield, so there’s a slight improvement in aesthetics. However, another difference is that the large pile in the privy (including composting) decomposes slower, because the center is devoid of air. So how does that fix the problem? (Again, I’m not really sure what problem you claim).
The only problem I really see is if people are crapping near a water source, but those idiots are being idiots and you think they are going to pack out their ukk?
Anyone that has any practical experience in composting knows there is zero problems with people randomly picking a spot off the AT (not talking about the desert here) to do their business.
Not trying to change your behavior of packing out, but you are absolutely wrong in telling me that I’m part of the problem in GSMNP, because I will NEVER pack-out.
I dont carry it out but they say to carry it out becuase it doesnt decompose. Heres the link http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/na...ss.asp#dispose here is the proof that tp doesnt decompose. I originally thought it took 100 years but i looked it up to be sure of what i was going to say. You really do learn something everyday
YoungMoose, I see you’re a young buck, so let me give you some friendly advice. Don't believe everything you read, but read and observe. TP does decompose, I compost everything and if I were to put TP in my pile I'm confident that it would be gone within a week, takes a little longer for normal paper that I DO throw in there occasionally and TP is much thinner.
I also use cardboard paper (you know how thick that is) as a lay under mulch to keep weeds down. I have to replace it once in a while because it decomposes.
In your link, the Sierraclub also says to always try and pee on rocks, that's just dumb. An animal digging through soil is completely natural and can even help to aerate the soil in the same way I turn my compost pile to aerate.
As I said TP would quickly decompose in my compost pile. Yet I concede that it would decompose at a slower rate in a cathole; that's just the nature of nature, but it would still decompose, just because it would take longer does not mean it is bad.
Soil, in part, is animal matter, which means it is the dead carcasses of animals, but also the feces of animals, and humans are animals, therefore it's alright to crap in the woods. And TP is no less organic than us. TP is actually plant matter, another composition of soil.
Please read the below link, it will take more time and effort to read than the one-liners of the Sierra club, but you’ll learn so much more.
http://library.thinkquest.org/J003195F/definiti.htm
Well, John Gault is right about at least one thing: Don't believe everything you read. Including his screed in favor of "just do it, anywhere you want." But for those who are capable of facts interfering with opinions, here are some:
1) Toilet paper is paper. It's no different to bury toilet paper than food wrappings, pieces of cardboard, trail journals or yesterday's New York Times. They are paper. If you're one of us who believes, "Pack it in and pack it out," has a meaning for not leaving waste of any kind along trails, you'll pack it out. Will it degrade someday? Perhaps. Will it affect the environment in an unnatural manner in the process? Yes, by definition.
2) Toilet paper is easily packed out in a single ziploc bag usable for a week, easily. Put a few drops of chlorine in the bag, or a small scoop of cat litter, and it will not have any smell, even. It doesn't add any weight, since you brought it in. If you are squeamish, use an opaque ziploc or have a paper bag inside the ziploc. There are no sanitary or other problems in doing so. When you get to a place with sanitary facilities, flush the paper, and if you want to be really good environmentally, put a few drops of Bronners (or other liquid soap) in the bag with some water, clean the bag from the outside, rinse and put the bag in the receptacle for clear plastic bags that they have at the nearest grocery store.
3) Human solid waste is different from animal waste that is in the wilderness. It contains bacteria (some of them pathogens) and viruses that are not found locally, often including giardia or other paths that are transmitted by the oral/fecal route. It is now recognized that giardia is transmitted as much (if not more) by human waste; interrrupting this vector by not leaving it in the wild can help reduce that problem. Additionally, there are a lot of trace pharmaceuticals that end up leaching through groundwater (i.e. the water that flows at the impermeable level below soil) to water courses such as springs and creeks, with the result that wildlife up the food chain concentrates pharmaceuticals that are harmful. (Much of the soil along the AT is very shallow, and rock and clay are not far beneath the topsoil.) This is increasingly a concern of biologists, and it, too, is avoidable but serious.
4) Urinating on rocks is prudent; the water in the urine will evaporate far more rapidly, without concentrating the urine salts in a puddle in the ground.
5) I suspect that "John Gault" is using an intentional misspelling of John Galt; regardless, John Galt would say - and it's a mere paraphrase to say as I do here, "We should all have the freedom to decide whether to carry our waste out, or bury it. But freedom is not the same thing as license; it is a burden, since freedom implies that free men and women will make responsible decisions that do not impinge on the freedom of others."
I leave you all with this question: If a cathole is as good a solution as any other on the trail, and burying toilet paper is harmless, why are there latrines at shelters, and why does the NPS have only composting latrines in GSMNP? If it is only for esthetic reasons, is that not sufficient? If it is also for sanitary reasons, are those not the definition of responsibility?
Many will not pack out TP, used Kleenex, or even food packaging, much less solid waste; those who do are showing a respect for the wilderness that is the essence of responsbility. Those who don't may have understandable reasons for not doing so, but I - and others - can hope they will reflect, and begin joining those of us who have changed. And, over time, the rest will change, for the most part. I hope so; we do not have unlimited time to protect our world.
The Weasel
"Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service
WOW, nice post Mr. Weasel. If your intent is to make people think, you are doing a good job.
People are fascinated and horrified by ****ting outside their comfort zone. Ever listen to people sharing stories about their dream trips to exotic lands? Toilets are always discussed in detail. Weird.
But we are talking Trail and Parks.
Over the top rules and practices will discourage an entire class of people from venturing out into the woods.
You want to protect nature, better to make it more inviting to all. Psychologically inviting as well as physically inviting.
Land managers are wise not to complicate things.
Don't scare them away with bombast over an imaginary problem.
The AMC has it nicely figured out. Clivus Multrums rule!
No, my name is John Gault, it's not a screen name.
About time someone answered the question.
no, we recognize rusty as being mostly full of ****....the way he talks about it so much, its an obsession with him....just ask TinMan.
Thats a pretty shallow mindset. He keeps plugging away at an eco issue he feels strongly about. While I may disagree, as other may, with some of his thoughts and data on the issue, I respect that he has something to say about it. No matter how goofy pooping on the trail as an issue may seem, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. He catchs alot of flack for his beliefs, but is not deterred. You want to insult him by saying he is obsessed, I prefer to compliment him for sticking to his belief and attempting to show solutions to a problem. At least he is an adult.
yep, theres a guy on the used gear thread selling a sense of humor....slightly used, but you'll never know the difference.
I looked all over them threads and still can't find the one you are talking about. Where be it are? Can you give me link?yep, theres a guy on the used gear thread selling a sense of humor....slightly used, but you'll never know the difference.
It's funny you mention that. Toilets...even in my hotel rooms...were one of my biggest complaints about India when I was there. They wer wither too low to the ground and my knees were in my chest, too tall and I felt like a 3 year old sitting in the handicap stall or the seats were square (don't ask they just didn't fit my butt.). Different reasons but same with Singapore and the modern adaptation or the pit toilet.My first thought was: "Wow this is a tough neighborhood they stole the fraggin' toilet!" You definitely have to watch your step in places like that.
Take almost nothing I say seriously--if it seems to make no sense what so ever it's probably meant as a joke....but do treat your water!
The pipe toilet i could probably handle but that second one would give me nightmares for weeks to come
Take almost nothing I say seriously--if it seems to make no sense what so ever it's probably meant as a joke....but do treat your water!
Posting Permissions
