Alright, just one more time…

[TD55]

I'm trying to get under yalls skin just so I can point out how yall try to twist and turn **** to avoid a POINT. I'm really not even talking to you hard heads who insist on hiding your paper to be dug up later. I'm talking to all the people who are reading this and thinking to themselves- what am I going to do the next time I'm lucky enough to get out?

So, your like the genius puppet master, using us all in some propaganda plot.

[Homer&Marje]

I don't mean to insult, but Nean's right: If you buried your food trash paper, you'd be a litterbug. If you buried your TP, why aren't you also a litter bug? Paper is paper, folks.

If you your bury your uneaten food, you're not engaging in LNT; if you bury your eaten, digested and excreted food, why aren't you also not engaging in LNT? Waste is waste.

Every hiker packs out at least a pound of excrement. If it in our bodies, how is that really different from having it in a sanitary bag in our pack? We're "touching" it every second it's in our colons, more so than when it is sealed in a bag.

Sorry, folks. It doesn't take "studies" to know that people are being inconsistent here.

TW

Haven't really...disagreed...per say with your argument. But to compare the touching of human waste on the inside of our bodies the the possibility of it touching the "outside" of our bodies completely negates your point.

If human waste can cause disease, bacteria, death and otherwise then it should come in as little human contact as possible....

If I remember correctly vietnamese soldiers used to make "tiger traps" in the trails for unsuspecting American soldiers to fall into....used to sharpen bamboo rods to a point...dip them in human ****...and then bury them in the hole facing upwards to puncture a limb, groin, abdomen or other.

Even if the wound wasn't life threatening, the bacteria embedded into the flesh, blood vessels and muscle tissue would cause rampant gangrene and other sepsis type diseases.

I'll keep my **** away from me after it comes out.

[Nean]

Maybe they can figure it out without your preachin....... You come off as a know it all that because he thinks he's hiked more than others is smarter than everybody else.

Thank you for being so honest Wilson -w/o making excuses.
When you think about it - are not we all being know it alls?
I play the experience on the trail card because I just don't think...... and will use it from time to time to make a point --more so when others start using the newb word. I've pointed out many times that experience is relative. I'f you don't get that, so be it. If you can't hear what I'm saying, thats cool. I'm a terrible person- truth be known- wait, someone who thinks I'm dumber than him has already used that ... and so it goes.....
If packing or burning your paper is too much to ask - THANKS for letting us know.

BTW is that your trash in the fire ring?

[Homer&Marje]

Does burning TP release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere longer than a more extended composting cycle?

Seriously..I want to know

[Monkeyboy]

I don't mean to insult, but Nean's right: If you buried your food trash paper, you'd be a litterbug. If you buried your TP, why aren't you also a litter bug? Paper is paper, folks.

Because food trash paper is usually wax coated and made of cardboard or foil-lined paper. Toilet paper is recycled paper and made to decompose rapidly.

If you your bury your uneaten food, you're not engaging in LNT; if you bury your eaten, digested and excreted food, why aren't you also not engaging in LNT? Waste is waste.

According to the Principles of Leave No Trace, catholes are acceptable practice.

Deposit solid human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200 feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished.

Every hiker packs out at least a pound of excrement. If it in our bodies, how is that really different from having it in a sanitary bag in our pack? We're "touching" it every second it's in our colons, more so than when it is sealed in a bag.

Your urine touches your kidneys every second it's in there. You gonna pack out your urine as well. It's more toxic and damaging to the environment than your feces is.

Sorry, folks. It doesn't take "studies" to know that people are being inconsistent here.

TW

You can say that again.........

[The Weasel]

(1) You can attack Nean (or me, for that matter) personally all you want. But he's right.

(2) Conspicuous in all of this is how those who disagree don't answer my two questions. Repeatedly, I've asked them; those who disagree most often (not always, but way too much) simply dodge the ball.

(3) There is a difference between animals in the wild eliminating waste and large amounts of waste introduced by people, and the former does not justify the latter: Hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of people using a particular "wild" area is a massive addition of waste.

(4) My waste - in a sanitary, easy to use container - has been something I've done with ease, and with no difficulty in finding proper disposal sites when I come off the trail. I've even brought a week's waste home, and taken a bit of time - maybe 20 minutes - to run it through my toilet system. The small amount of cat litter - and it is truly small (about 1 cup total used over the course of 5-6 days) has no effect on the system.

(5) As for experience, well, I'm well past my half-century of backpacking, and I've gone from the days of "dig a large latrine for a group of 5 or more, bury your food waste, and burn your cans in your fire ring before stomping flat and burying them" to LNT, high-efficiency stoves, minimal-packaged foods, and all the rest. It's time to recognize that human waste belonds in the wild no more than those cans, group latrines, and left-over spaghetti.

So skip the personal attacks: If you agree, say so. If you don't, at least discuss the issue. And maybe someone who doesn't think it's a problem will answer my two questions.

TW

[The Weasel]

Does burning TP release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere longer than a more extended composting cycle?

Seriously..I want to know

H&M:

I would doubt that there would be a carbon dioxide release, at least directly, from burying, other than at the time the buried matter became part of the nutrients for plants that release it. Burning would have at least a more immediate release, and a greater release of the other chemicals in the paper.

Those who think toilet paper is simply "recycled" paper are wrong. And even to the extent that there is recycled paper in it, much of it is highly treated, with unwelcom chemicals that can leach into groundwater. Vast amounts? Perhaps not. But at this stage of our attack on the Earth, why add to the problem, even in miniscule amounts.

In septic systems, paper solids sink to the bottom of the tank, to be pumped out ultimately. In municipal systems, the Clean Water Act requires disposal at sites where leaching is minimized/eliminated.

TW

[Monkeyboy]

1.) Who was attacking you?

2.) You asked about toilet paper, I answered. You asked about leaving waste, I answered. So much for no one answering your questions.

3.) You said LNT means not leaving a cathole. I proved you wrong from LNT's own website.

4.) Have fun humping your poo thinking you are following LNT. God Bless Ya. In the meantime, I'll be ACTUALLY following the principles of LNT.

5.) I never once mentioned digging latrine trenches, leaving cans, food packaging or burying food, and never do. I mentioned actually following the Principles of LNT.

So skip the personal attacks: If you agree, say so. If you don't, at least discuss the issue. And maybe someone who doesn't think it's a problem will answer my two questions.

What do you think I was doing? You just didn't like the answer.

[The Weasel]

(1) MonkeyBoy, I was not referrring to you.

(2) For those interested, this quote:

Toilet paper is generally made from new or "virgin" paper, using a combination of softwood and hardwood trees. Softwood trees such as Southern pines and Douglas firs have long fibers that wrap around each other; this gives paper strength. Hardwood trees like gum, maple and oak have shorter fibers that make a softer paper. Toilet paper is generally a combination of approximately 70% hardwood and 30% softwood.
Other materials used in manufacture include water, chemicals for breaking down the trees into usable fiber, and bleaches. Companies that make paper from recycled products use oxygen, ozone, sodium hydroxide, or peroxide to whiten the paper. Virgin-paper manufacturers, however, often use chlorine-based bleaches (chlorine dioxide), which have been identified as a threat to the environment.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-6/Toilet-Paper.html

(3) For those who wonder, "LNT" stands for "Leave No Trace." The LNT organization recommends thorough burying of TP (which often does not happen) OR "packing out":

"Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, non-perfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should either be thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out."

http://test.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php

That page also notes that burying feces may slow decomposition. Catholes are clearly a necessary evil given the reluctance of people to pack waste out, but the increasing ease of doing so is a reason to... leave no trace.

TW

[Monkeyboy]

(1) MonkeyBoy, I was not referrring to you.

My bad.

(2) For those interested, this quote:

Toilet paper is generally made from new or "virgin" paper, using a combination of softwood and hardwood trees. Softwood trees such as Southern pines and Douglas firs have long fibers that wrap around each other; this gives paper strength. Hardwood trees like gum, maple and oak have shorter fibers that make a softer paper. Toilet paper is generally a combination of approximately 70% hardwood and 30% softwood.
Other materials used in manufacture include water, chemicals for breaking down the trees into usable fiber, and bleaches. Companies that make paper from recycled products use oxygen, ozone, sodium hydroxide, or peroxide to whiten the paper. Virgin-paper manufacturers, however, often use chlorine-based bleaches (chlorine dioxide), which have been identified as a threat to the environment.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-6/Toilet-Paper.html

That is why I use biodegradable TP. And for those that don't know TP stands for Toilet Paper.

(3) For those who wonder, "LNT" stands for "Leave No Trace." The LNT organization recommends thorough burying of TP (which often does not happen) OR "packing out":

"Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, non-perfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should either be thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out."

http://test.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php

That page also notes that burying feces may slow decomposition. Catholes are clearly a necessary evil given the reluctance of people to pack waste out, but the increasing ease of doing so is a reason to... leave no trace.

TW

Burying feces is acceptable, but only if done in a SHALLOW hole. Reason being, the soil is dead after about 12 inches. No organisms live that far below the surface to aid in decomposition.

But thanks for verifying that I was correct that LNT allows for the burial of feces and that packing it out is not necessary.

[beakerman]

(2) For those interested, this quote:

Toilet paper is generally made from new or "virgin" paper, using a combination of softwood and hardwood trees. Softwood trees such as Southern pines and Douglas firs have long fibers that wrap around each other; this gives paper strength. Hardwood trees like gum, maple and oak have shorter fibers that make a softer paper. Toilet paper is generally a combination of approximately 70% hardwood and 30% softwood.
Other materials used in manufacture include water, chemicals for breaking down the trees into usable fiber, and bleaches. Companies that make paper from recycled products use oxygen, ozone, sodium hydroxide, or peroxide to whiten the paper. Virgin-paper manufacturers, however, often use chlorine-based bleaches (chlorine dioxide), which have been identified as a threat to the environment.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-6/Toilet-Paper.html


TW

Great googly moogly we are still on this? Look TW I got respect for you packing it out but now you are the one spreading bad/misleading info.

Oxygen: gas naturally occurring in the atmosphere at abotu 21% by volume. It's toxic in what way? Oh and being it's a gas how exactly is it being trapped inside the TP and waiting to be released into an unsuspecting ecosystem?

Ozone: It's a gas too. Granted it's more of a problem than that dreaded oxygen but it is unstable--degrades to oxygen as a matter of fact. Again how exactly is it being stuck it the TP waiting to get out after use?

Soduim Hydroxide, the peroxides and chlorine bleaches are all water soluble and washed out of the paper during the processing-if not you would get one heck of a case of monkey butt just from normal use at home...anyway even if there were high enough levels to be concerned about packing it out for disposal at a waste treatment facility only relocates the problem to your local outfall from said treatment facility--these items are NOT regulated for outfall. They monitor pH (very high levels of sodium hydroxide and bleaching agents can raise pH but you dump more down the drain to keep your sox white than a train load of TP could possibly contain), turbidity, BOD and a hand full of other items none of which are the things you are making a case about.

So stop using bad science to scare people into your camp. I was concerned about the plastics used and once I understood your system I conceeded that point but my others remain.

[The Weasel]

Beakerman:

I must say that I am impressed by anyone who can use Calvin's most emphatic epithet correctly in a sentence!

But I'm afraid that I didn't use bad science. While chemicals are only going to be present in trace amounts by the time you use the TP, they're going to leach out of the paper when it's left in the ground. It is, after all, a paper, and while different in composition in some ways from other papers, it is simply wrong to believe that it is free from all residues of the manufacturing process. It's not. (By the way, oxygen, in the O2 molecule, is a highly dangerous chemical, as it is as O3, or ozone. But I knew you didn't mean it wasn't, even though you said that.)

Yes, we "move" or "displace" problems a lot. For instance, when we carry a tuna can out and put it in a waste can, we've "displaced" the problem from burying it by our campsite. Yes, the can goes from the trash bin to a truck, and thence to a landfill. So gosh! It's buried! What's the difference?

A big one.

The landfill is regulated, and designed (at least these days) to minimize the adverse effects of disposed items. It is monitored, and contains (through clay or plastic liners) the effects of leachate. So that can isn't going to adversely effect, to the best of our current ability, the environment, and particularly our wilderness areas.

The same holds for TP and excrement: If buried along a trail, they risk contaminating that area, as you and I have discussed. Sure, we "displace the problem" by taking them out, and putting them into the sanitary disposal process. (The plastic bag - one gallon size ziploc for about 3-5 days of paper bags containing the waste - goes into the 'normal' waste disposal cycle; I happen to make sure mine goes into 'plastic bag recycling' which California strongly makes possible, since the bags are not dirty in any way.)

The objections to carrying out TP and functionally non-existent, other than squeamishness that is uncharacteristic of tough, hardy, 'fraid of nothin' backpackers. As for carrying out solid waste, the objections are little more than "I don't want to carry out the disposed weight of food that I carried in." While I'm all for lightening packs as we go, that's not the way to do it.

Great googly moogly yourself!http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2008/08/31/

The Weasel

[Heater]

Apologies for the duplicate postings cause by a computer malfunction.

TW

Well, I'm glad that it was because of a computer malfunction and not that you are an idiot.

[CowHead]

(
For those interested, this quote:

Toilet paper is generally made from new or "virgin" paper,
TW

Now that's some good a**ss* wiping stuff

[Tin Man]

Ok, no studies needed. My 'observation' is tp and poo catholes are not a problem on the AT - study over, what do I win?

Weasy, my apologies if I have offended you. I will try to stay on topic and not use scat-whatever insults. I do have a question for you, my observation of catholes along the AT are recent and confined to the North East. It is rare to come across any signs of a cathole and I do not see them as a problem like I do see polution along our roadways and major rivers and oceans. My question is when was the last time you saw a serious problem along the AT? When was the last time you were on the AT and where exactly did you see such a 'problem'?

Weasy, I went to all this effort to apologize and ask you a direct question. Maybe you have me on ignore. If not, please answer my question. You keep going on like the trail is about to collapse from over-pooping and tping. Yet, I and others have stated they have recent experience and do not observe any big problem brewing.

Your junk science and false prophecies of doom and gloom aren't holding water with anyone here.

[woodsy]

HOW TO **** IN THE WOODS

By Kathleen Meyer
an evironmentally sound approach
to a lost art

recommended reading for those who don't know how to do it correctly.
If the shoe fits, wear it.... I mean buy it, the book.

[Tin Man]

HOW TO **** IN THE WOODS

By Kathleen Meyer
an evironmentally sound approach
to a lost art

recommended reading for those who don't know how to do it correctly.
If the shoe fits, wear it.... I mean buy it, the book.

it is a good read, but probably poo-pooed by junk scientists

[Wilson]

BTW is that your trash in the fire ring?

Impossible, I've never been hiking.

[Monkeyboy]

Beakerman:

The objections to carrying out TP and functionally non-existent, other than squeamishness that is uncharacteristic of tough, hardy, 'fraid of nothin' backpackers. As for carrying out solid waste, the objections are little more than "I don't want to carry out the disposed weight of food that I carried in." While I'm all for lightening packs as we go, that's not the way to do it.

The Weasel

No, the objection is not being dumb enough to think that packing out my poo is actually making a difference to the environment.

If it makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER, what's the use? That's when it changes from being environmentally friendly and just plain a**s**s dumb.

[Dr O]

Is it better for the environment to have treatment centers? Don't they consume power? require construction? release chemicals, etc