Alright, just one more time…

[Nean]

Used TP? Nationally? What about disposable diapers?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

I tend to get more upset about raw sewage in a body of water. Happens every day in America. Despite the Clean Water Act.

That is a good question about the diapers. I don't know of anyone- ever- thinking or saying- that was a no-no. Seems there would be a ...load to be made providing legal disposal. They do float pretty well in our waterways though. You could probably put all the dry poop off my paper from a thru in one of those diapers based on the babies I've seen that seem to be able to poo their weight in poop.

OTOH, my folks told me we couldn't throw the new "liberal lightbulbs" in the trash. Think my Dad heard it on rush. Anyone know about that?

[Homer&Marje]

Used TP? Nationally? What about disposable diapers?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

I tend to get more upset about raw sewage in a body of water. Happens every day in America. Despite the Clean Water Act.

It is legal to throw human and animal waste into normal trash....it is not legal to throw said waste into public dumpsters, construction dumpsters, public trashcans or otherwise....it must be disposed of in a container that it is allowed....that could be your neighbors trash can...but not his construction dumpster, recycling bin, recycling cardboard dumpster, compacting trailer.....the list goes on

[Homer&Marje]

Seeing as this is a rare opportunity, that I got the picture....and the conversation that is going on.

First of all, again...I DO NOT!!! pack out my own waste. Nor TP. But does everyone know what the caretakers deal with in the Privy?

Collector bins, when full, are insanely nasty. Makes me want to volunteer just for all I've contributed.

Enjoy

[TD55]

You need help Homer, professional help.

[Homer&Marje]

You need help Homer, professional help.

The professionals failed. We've moved to repression and ignoring tactics.

[Nean]

Seeing as this is a rare opportunity, that I got the picture....and the conversation that is going on.

First of all, again...I DO NOT!!! pack out my own waste. Nor TP. But does everyone know what the caretakers deal with in the Privy?

Collector bins, when full, are insanely nasty. Makes me want to volunteer just for all I've contributed.

Enjoy

I can understand the leaving your TP in the latrine to be composted. Thats not an issue. Its what you do with your litter in the woods. Do you burn it?

[Nean]

And.... campgrounds have campers and some campers have babies. I've come across a lot of trash cans in public places that have diapers in them. If it is so hazardous, and against the law, shouldn't there be warnings and alternatives?

And.... know about the light bulbs?

[Homer&Marje]

And.... campgrounds have campers and some campers have babies. I've come across a lot of trash cans in public places that have diapers in them. If it is so hazardous, and against the law, shouldn't there be warnings and alternatives?

And.... know about the light bulbs?

What the new bulbs that when broken let out mercury? Yes

[Homer&Marje]

And no, I do not burn it. I bury it in soft soil 6 inches deep. I've never had an "emergency" where I could not wait for a suitable spot. Even when hiking out west as a kid I found it easy to find spots, and there is a lot less privies to use out there.

[Nean]

And no, I do not burn it. I bury it in soft soil 6 inches deep. I've never had an "emergency" where I could not wait for a suitable spot. Even when hiking out west as a kid I found it easy to find spots, and there is a lot less privies to use out there.

So what do you do w/those wiggly bulbs when they burn out? Do they all have mercury?

Thats nice - is the hole 6' deep when you start or after you finish?

I'd suggest burning- so even if / when an animal does dig it up there will be no paper litter. If burning is to much to ask or deal with perhaps mixing / composting w/ soil and a stick.
I think a lot of folks start w/ a hole that probably isn't 6" to begin with. Most gals think 4" is.... ok , enough of that. Anyways they start w/ the hole, add poop, put their paper on top (and some use just as much at home as they would in the woods) and press an inch of 2 of soil on top. Most tp on the trail that I'm seeing has probably been dug up.

Something to think about. I'm always striving to be a better person, worker, hiker. What I like about these threads is people may not always change their ways, right away, but maybe they will improve their technique, and perhaps consider a better way.

[Homer&Marje]

So you dig a 10" hole every time? Are you putting up fence posts? I would say of my 6" hole 2" are full and I grab my own "duff" around the area if I can and put that in before the soil....then I pack ALL of the soil I dug out on top. THEN I cover it with extra leaves, foliage, sticks and surrounding ground matter to cover it completely.

I'm a terrible person though and no one should take my advice...personally I don't like to light fires near that much ground tinder.

If you break a squiggly bulb, yes almost all contain mercury and they have set up recycling centers to accept them now....real pain in the ass and no one does it though.

I use cheapo bulbs, not the new ones

[Pedaling Fool]

Seeing as this is a rare opportunity, that I got the picture....and the conversation that is going on.

First of all, again...I DO NOT!!! pack out my own waste. Nor TP. But does everyone know what the caretakers deal with in the Privy?

Collector bins, when full, are insanely nasty. Makes me want to volunteer just for all I've contributed.

Enjoy

I bash AMC alot, but I have to admit they got the best privy system (through the Whites) on the trail, but they put a lot of work into it. I know the claims, but I don't believe (emphasis believe) that any mouldering/composting privy is much different than the conventional cathole/pit privy without maintenance.

Composting doesn't take much work, but upkeep on any privy on the AT, especially the ones through the Whites is a butt-load of work, sorry for the pun.

[Homer&Marje]

Just remember that every piece of trash that the caretaker has to sift through and pick out...he or she has to pack out for you.

Composting can go very easy for them...or very very difficult. Definitely the best privy system all through the whites and huge amounts of effort go into it. That picture is 1....1 collector bin of how many, I don't know the exact number.

But simple fact is John your right, composting privies use "duff" as the natural composting material and a cat hole, properly done, does the same thing. No difference, and on a much smaller scale.

[beakerman]

Beakerman:

About your cathole: A lot of people think that the hole needs to be 6" deep, then they "fill" it. That usually means that there's little more than an inch or two of soil above the waste and paper, and sometimes not that. The result is that many such holes end up being dug up, or or even having the minimal soil washed away in a heavy rain.

If you're digging a cathole so there is at least 2-4" of covering soil, that's a minimum, and workable, which is why 8" is the usual recommendation when possible. But even then, it doesn't solve the problem of leachate from your waste or the paper. But if you don't use any prescription drugs, don't eat seeds of plants not growing in that area, and are certain you don't carry viruses or bacteria for diseases, and you're using TP that is not only biodegradable but has no chlorine or other residues that are harmful to the environment, well, great.

Here's what we teach Scouts; by the way, note that Scouts learn to urinate on rocks, not the ground, whenever possible. For good reason.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...c_dispose.aspx

TW
>--WWW-->

TW...

That's why I said 6+ inches deep.

I'm not debating the pack it out issue. I agree in principle that both the TP and the "primary solids" should probably be packed out...particularly in heavy use areas. However I'm concerned that the current technology of doing so may well be as bad for the total environment as the initial problem is for the local environment. Basically i think you might just be moving it to someone else's back yard so to speak.


Again I'm not disagreeing with you but like you I'm trying to educate folks to think about their actions and that sometimes what looks like a good alternative is actually worse in the long run. Take the electric car for example. Most intelligent folks would say they are a good alternative togas burners as far as global warming goes (NOTE: this is not a debate about global warming!!) Electric power means you are not personally burning the fossil fuels to power you personal conveyance device. However that power comes from somewhere and if that plant is not wind, solar or nuclear than it is most likely burning coal or natural gas. Thanks to one of the laws of the universe called conservation of mass and energy all you are doing at best is transferring the point of pollution and hoping it is being controlled there. Even the alternative power sources: nuclear, wind, solar and hydro all have their impacts on the land. We all know the fears about nuclear power so I won't rehash them here. Wind farms kill migratory birds, solar panels are environmentally unfriendly to build and hydro destroys fish runs.

I guess my point is everything we do has some impact. The question becomes which is really better: a locality with properly buried poo/burnt toilet paper or 1000 acres and countless gallons of water fouled to produce plastics to make bags so you can have a clean conscience about where you take a dump? Sure those places are regulated but they don't call the Mississippi river between Baton Rouge and New Orleans cancer alley for nothing.

This displaced impact is one of the reasons I left the environmental field. We were testing effluent streams for part per billion contaminants yet putting 200+ liters of methylene chloride up the vent stack in the process. My hypocrisy does not run that deep and as I said I'm not debating you on this issue--I agree in principle but I just want folks to seriously think about the total impact rather than the warm and fuzzy feeling they get for doing what they think is the right thing.

[The Weasel]

Doesn't this mean the poo packer outers are law breakers when they pack out thier poo and leave it in trash receptacles? Seriously, you expect people to carry thier poo until they find a flush toilet? What about the plastic bags? You don't want us to flush the bags or dump them in privys, do you? This conversation has gotten poopadiculous.

TD: You're not listening.

First, yes. When I come to the end of a section or a hike, I go to a car or shuttle that takes me places with flush toilets or to places (like state parks or commercial campgrounds) with waste disposal stations. That's where human waste goes. No, it doesn't go in trash cans.

Second, there is (at most) one plastic bag. ONE for every 3 days. I've repeated this system multiple times. Please pay attention: Have a number of paper lunch baqs (1.5 per day seems to work). Have about 1/4 cup of cat litter per bag. After defecating, use trowel to put waste and paper in bag. Put in 1/4 cup (about a med handful) in the paper bag. Roll up, put in large ziploc (which doesn't get messy at all). Each time you go, put the paper bag in the same ziploc. One will hold about 5-6 paper bags. When you arrive at a toilet/disposal station, remove paper bags and empty each one. Throw paper bags in disposal station or in waste can; there will be no human waste on the bag, since the cat litter will have adequately dried it. (If it contained liquidy stool, ask where the facility prefers to have sanitary napkins disposed of and put in same place.)

I don't have/need ziplocs, since I've used both a rubberized fabric stuff sac (like a dry bag for boats) that is 1 gal in size, and also used 18 long sleeve of inner tube, roll-clamped at ends.

It's easier than making a tin can stove and very sanitary, and very easy to dispose of waste.

TW

[The Weasel]

Beakerman, all this whining about plastic bags is nonsense. There are no suggestions for large numbers of plastic bags, any more than people (at least those with brains) use one ziploc per day for other trash. See above. If you don't like the idea, fine. But don't attack it with incorrect information. I've been part of Scout Crews with 10 people that packed out all waste together, taking turns carrying the "honey bag". There wasn't ONE plastic bag in it, there was no smell, it wasn't heavy even at the end of a week, and the National Park Ranger at Isle Royale was amazed and delighted.

It works.

TW

[TD55]

TD: You're not listening.

First, yes. When I come to the end of a section or a hike, I go to a car or shuttle that takes me places with flush toilets

Have about 1/4 cup of cat litter per bag. After defecating, use trowel to put waste and paper in bag. Put in 1/4 cup (about a med handful)



TW

I am listening. You are suggesting that hikers put cat litter into flush toilets. That is not a viable solultion. They will be creating a maintenence problem for the people who maintain the flush toilets. How would you like it if every day a dozen hikers flushed a pound or two of cat litter into your toilet and perhaps septic system? How many clogged toilets before you would start seeing signs put up forbidding hikers from doing this?

You are not giving solutions to the problem. Talking down to people who have questions or disagree or are critics of your views will not help solve the problem either.

[Homer&Marje]

I use 1 ziploc per WEEK for trash in the woods. By myself, that's a small ziploc...I have about 10 - 12 oz of trash halway up a gallon zip loc bag from 3 people 6 days in the woods.

1 ziploc per day for trash would have to be an extraordinary situation

[beakerman]

Beakerman, all this whining about plastic bags is nonsense. There are no suggestions for large numbers of plastic bags, any more than people (at least those with brains) use one ziploc per day for other trash. See above. If you don't like the idea, fine. But don't attack it with incorrect information. I've been part of Scout Crews with 10 people that packed out all waste together, taking turns carrying the "honey bag". There wasn't ONE plastic bag in it, there was no smell, it wasn't heavy even at the end of a week, and the National Park Ranger at Isle Royale was amazed and delighted.

It works.

TW

Ok you call foul on the plastic bag argument. You say (I happen to believe you by the way) that it is done withpaper lunch bags and what basically amounts to a rubberized cloth bag. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Let me describe teh system as I understand it:

crap in the woods, follow up with the requisite wiping, scoop that all up and deposit in on of the paper lunch bags with a hand full of kitty litter roll it down tight I presume to help prevent leaky messes and shove than in the "dry bag" for disposal later.

You put the contents of the dry bag down the flush toilet of the nearest facility that will allow it (I assume you don't have blockage issues---a paper bag full of it can be pretty solid after several days of kitty litter dessication).

I follow along with all that--I might have missed a step in there but for argument sake let's say that I have the gist of it thus far OK? What pray tell do you do with the dry bag?

Let's think about this logically for jsut a minute--I'm going to pull a page out of Mr. Nean's play book here for just a second so bear with me...

There are two issues here as I see it:

1) people are not burying it correctly in the first place and 2) you are concerned about pollution. Let's deal with the first one first as Mr. Nean did with me on the hanging food issue. I think you will agree TP blooming up from a cathole means the cathole was not done right. In short: what makes you think you are going to convince people to carry their poo correctly if the problem people are ones that can't handle the simple task of digging a hole striking a match and covering? You want to try to teach them to think far enough ahead to carry sufficient paper bags and kitty litter then scoop up the stuff that they obviously are incapable of digging a small hole to cover and deposit it in the proper facility when it's all said and done? Man you have faith in humanity don't you?

Ok I'm done trying to think like my buddy Nean....

As I said I agree with you in principle but I do find your arguments about pathogens is a little weak. Giardia and Crypto would not be spreading as fast as they are if people stopped being mr. tuff guy/lazy and actually treated their water--if it don't get into you, you can't carry it. If you aren't carrying it you aren't spreading it. If you are worried about e. coli and othe flora/fauna then I would suggest you stop hiking and drinking water in general. All mammals deposit e. coli along with a host of other things with their scat--that's why I treat my water.

Also the pharma load in most cases is not that great. First of all not all hikers are walking drug stores (not saying you are) and secondly most of your phama load is carried via urine not feces (67% for ibuprofen as a combination of metabolites and free forms). Same with many pesticides and herbicides--they have to be absorbed to be effective and if they won't pass the digestive tract wall then it's wasted. Sure you aren't going to absorb all of it but when you realize the dosages--milligrams/day, absorbtion rate and the ultimate dilution that goes on after you deposit it--along with some metabolism that goes on in the digestive tract there is not very much coming out via the solid wastes.

So my contention is you should be paking out your urine more than your solids as it does more damage.

As I said I'm thinking about this issue. I know a thing or three about chemical processes in the body and environment as well as the processes that make the goods you use day to day. You said some posts back you are involved in some sort of litigation about contaminants leaching into water...I would love to have access to the information you have. I think that if it is indeed related to this topic (not claiming it you said it was but that was the impression I was left with) that information would make a much more compelling argument so someone like me. I'm a chemist. I deal with crap like this all the time (no pun intended--ok I lied it was intended) I've been on both sides of the battle--I've shut plants down for violating various laws and I've testified in law suits regarding chemical exposures to all sorts of nasty things as both defendant and claimant experts--I went where the data pointed not the paychecks. There are times you wanted me to show up and times you didn't--I never spun my data for one side or the other. Like I said I know a thing or three about this topic. If you have info that you can share then do so please.

[The Weasel]

Beakerman:

Yes, you have the system down now. That's it exactly. And as for disposal, yes, you are precisly correct: I ask before using a toilet for any of this, which is why I far prefer to take a few extra minutes and just stop and the nearest state park to where I am traveling from. If my bag stays in my pack for an extra hour or two, it's not a biggie, and state parks (with campgrounds for RVs) always have a disposal station.

The "pharma load" is greater than you may think. As I keep mentioning, this ne.ed to pack-out is greatest in rocky or shallow (less than 2-3 feet) topsoils. When that happens, water that leaches chemicals hits the base and then flows down. That's how springs occur. So it's risky to have waste areas (or even just a few loads) in such soils, which are typical of the AT. The combination of estrogens and other pharms is beleived to be one of the major reasons for the emerging extinction of many frogs and amphibians, and there are elevated estrogen and other chemical levels in a lot of other pond/creek critters. It's real. Is it enough to shut down a watersource? No. Is it enough, over a long enough time, to adversely affect flora and fauna. Yes.

Here's an examply, quickly pulled up on Google (groundwater contamination pharmaceuticals). http://www.wcponline.com/column.cfm?T=T&ID=2199

And I keep asking the basic questions, with no response (you might be willing to comment, and I'd be interested if you could): If "packing out TP and/or waste isn't necessary, why don't municipal/county/state health departments let people just bury their waste in catholes in their own yards? Why are indoor toilets required in houses?"
That's sort of a proof that there are real problems with "dump anywhere" such as we think we can on trails.

Keep this in mind: It wasn't long ago - maybe 40 years - that no one carried "backpacking" stoves when they hiked; we all cooked over fires. We've changed, and now we debate about alcohol vs. gas vs. butane or whaterver, and argue about the lightest stoves. Why? Because we learned that open-fire cooking was environmentally dangerous. We used to bury our trash, including cans. Now we argue about how to minimize packaging in our packs, because we carry it out. Why? Because we learned that leaving trash in the wilderness damaged it badly.

Dealing with solid waste is the next such issue, and I am confident we'll stop damaging the wild in that respect, too.

TW