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  1. #241
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    Beak--

    Sure, studies are nice. They are also a way to fiddle while the house burns. But go ahead. Yet empiricism works, too: If you can identify a problem, and ways to begin solving it, even if imperfectly, then you start solving the problem. Otherwise, 'the perfect becomes the enemy of of the possible.'

    When I drink beer, I drink 'local'.

    r
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  2. #242
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    Read an artical in the paper from a couple of days ago. It's title: Selfish Act Has Ripple Effect, about someone who tried to flush a diaper in an airplane. I pictured a couple of folks on this thread burying the diaper in the woods- lol.

    God wants us to litter; that is special.

    This thread has made me think. .......

    I'm capable of lowering my impact a little more.
    I'll pack out my latrine TP even though I think thats the one place in the woods that it is ok. And I'm going to try packing out some poop in high use areas w/o latrines even though I've always thought mixed and buried were "good enuff."

    Usually I'll have enough trash every other shelter to have a quick fire while I eat lunch or check the register. My attitude is if you I see trash and don't pick it up (within reason) then I littered. I've a bit of the clean freak OCD in me (more so on the trail than at home) so I make it work in a good way. I take more pride in being a one man trail crew than I ever did from just walkin.

    If it makes any litterbugs feel better, I was one of you, probably for longer than any of you- before I started packing out my TP, peanut shells, others litter, etc., etc. I saw the light!
    Ever since I've been born again and can't help but to spread the good word!

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by beakerman View Post

    as for beer might I suggest a shiner instead? It's a bit more flavorful than Lone Star and by far my favorite of the local. I still prefer Yeunglings but I just can't get it here yet...I need more yankee transplants to build a market for it.
    Lone Star is to Texas what Fosters is to Oz- the locals don't drink it much. Shiner is the real deal- kinda the Yeungling of Texas- which I like too but some people, well, don't. I drink PBR so those are my standards.

  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nean View Post
    Have you ever wondered why the have the privy system or so many composting latrines on the AT? Just take a look around the perimeter of any shelter that doesn't have one and you'll have your answer.

    As you correctly pointed out- "huge amounts of effort go into it" I HAVE helped w/ the composting up there. As the picture you provided shows paper tends to be the last to compost. People leave their trash in the latrines for the same reason you bury your trash in the woods. They think its cool and they don't care.

    Thank you for sharing how you bury your litter, but you never gave reasons why - other than to say there is "no difference" between that and the weeks of work and huge effort it takes to compost in the Whites. Kid yourself my friend- it's not close. Even when you bury your trash proper there is no way you can guarantee it won't be dug up in that "soft soil" you always manage to find, soon after you leave. Throwing your beer cans in the lake would be closer to being the same.

    Doesn't matter if you are "a terrible person" or a good ol' boy. Only nice people give valid advise?? Experience, facts and common sense are better indicators than perceived niceness. Con artist are successful by coming across as wonderful people! The good ol boy mantra of got r done, good enuff, can't see it from my house-- seems to be the- reason- given here for not packing out ones trash.

    By all means, if one does not have the wherewithal to burn a few pieces of TP w/o burning down the forest- pack it out instead!

    I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the duff you mention has to flown in and its not leaves from your yard either. But there is a reason they go to the trouble. Can you imagine what the Whites would look like today w/o those latrines?? Much nastier than a few squares folded into my trash squeemish ones. And BTW, one zip is all it takes for all my trash (and a bunch of others) between towns. Why would you waste a zip for everyday?

    It wasn't that long ago people looked down there nose at recycling, organics, lightweight gear. Now its mainstream.
    The world evolves everyday and some fall behind- doesn't mean you can't catch up.
    I've never seen this diversity of emoticons in one post...Who are you talking to? Cause you quoted me but...I'm concerned with a few of your points.

    I use 1 ziploc bag per trip (and have RE USED) the same ziploc bag for many trips when I can. As I posted....

    I pack out ALL my trash, not TP. When the caretakers pick trash out of the collection bins they leave the TP and take out all solid trash items that anyone rudely discards in there.

    Please don't tell me I'm not evolved with the rest of the world. I have experience, facts, and common sense to base my opinions on thank you though.

    The duff that is flown in I believe is done so so that the natural ground "duff" that is produced would be quickly used up in a White Mountain Privy situation, leaving the surrounding area barren of any floor covering.

    What I speak of putting in the cat hole is simply the SAME thing, adding natural surrounding organic material with the waste in which it composts, along with the TP. What the duff that is flown in does is add a slightly composted already organic material...like grabbing the wet leaves under the layer of dry ones. Simple organic chemistry. Try it out in your yard if you think I'm wrong. Take a crap in a cat hole in your backyard, put TP in it, add some wet leaves, twigs and bark, cover it. And then tell us in 3 months what has happened to it. Personally I don't like to sift through my cat holes after they are full, but it might be something up your alley with all your scientific desire for inquiry. Experiment for us...

    I cannot guarantee that my cat hole will not get dug up by an animal. There is no guarantee that a Privy will not be subject to an animals curiosity, as well as a honey bag left in tent, in pack, outside shelter, tent or otherwise.

  5. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    If you carry poop and used TP around with you in your pack, please, PLEASE don't brag about it and show it to me! Best that I never know about it!
    Quote Originally Posted by MOWGLI View Post
    This **** is getting old. (should we bury it or carry it out)
    Seriously, whenever the topic comes up the weasel will not shuddup until people stop challenging his nasty habbits. I would hate to run into him on the trail... while you are looking at flowers and scenics vistas, he'll be out spotting and showing you cat holes and tp for sure.
    Last edited by HikerRanky; 07-22-2009 at 07:49.

  6. #246
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    Imagine the poor assistant manager at the AYCE restaurant. After two months of putting in job app's, finaly got this job last week. Manager big boss honcho is watching when in walks a stinky hiker with a bag of crap. "Hi there assistant manager person" he or she says, "would you mind if I carry my weeks worth of poo through your restauarant, and flush it down your toilet, along with a pound and a half of toilet clogging cat litter?". Can you imagine?

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homer&Marje View Post
    I've never seen this diversity of emoticons in one post...Who are you talking to? Cause you quoted me but...I'm concerned with a few of your points.

    >Thank you, thank you very much. Ever since WB upgraged from 4max I've been in emoticon heaven! Sometimes I answer you directly, other times I use your qoute too make a point!

    I use 1 ziploc bag per trip (and have RE USED) the same ziploc bag for many trips when I can. As I posted....

    >When you say trip, I assume your mean a thru hike. Regardless, I think thats cool! My point was that I don't use extra bags to pack out trash and those can be reused as well!

    I pack out ALL my trash, not TP. When the caretakers pick trash out of the collection bins they leave the TP and take out all solid trash items that anyone rudely discards in there.

    > You don't consider TP trash and I do. I have offered many examples and aurguments where you have not.

    Please don't tell me I'm not evolved with the rest of the world. I have experience, facts, and common sense to base my opinions on thank you though.

    > Your welcome! Some of us are just born knowing everything, you, the Dali Lama, the list goes on.... Me, I'm a slow learner. It wasn't 'till my 6th trip that I had enough experience and facts for common sense to take over old ways of thinking... But I'm a terrible person, so don't listen to me...

    The duff that is flown in I believe is done so so that the natural ground "duff" that is produced would be quickly used up in a White Mountain Privy situation, leaving the surrounding area barren of any floor covering.

    > I know.
    But all that trouble and expense is required because most people in the outdoors, lets be honest, are not outdoorsmen. IMHI, folks who bury their TP fall into the later category, sorry.
    I understand you and have no hard feelings toward you- just trying to shed some light on way that doesn't leave litter to chance.

    What I speak of putting in the cat hole is simply the SAME thing, adding natural surrounding organic material with the waste in which it composts, along with the TP. What the duff that is flown in does is add a slightly composted already organic material...like grabbing the wet leaves under the layer of dry ones. Simple organic chemistry. Try it out in your yard if you think I'm wrong. Take a crap in a cat hole in your backyard, put TP in it, add some wet leaves, twigs and bark, cover it. And then tell us in 3 months what has happened to it. Personally I don't like to sift through my cat holes after they are full, but it might be something up your alley with all your scientific desire for inquiry. Experiment for us...

    > You know I tried that!!
    Lucky for me there is always soft soil in MBY, wet leaves too! All the neighbors have the hard black clay.
    And the results are in........(imagine a drum roll here.........) never made it past three days before my dogs dug it up. Tp everywhere! I'm not going to beat myself up too much though- common sense, facts, experience told me those results were likely.

    I cannot guarantee that my cat hole will not get dug up by an animal. There is no guarantee that a Privy will not be subject to an animals curiosity, as well as a honey bag left in tent, in pack, outside shelter, tent or otherwise.

    > Thanks for admitting I'm right and further inspiring me to pack out ALL my TP. I CAN guarantee my TP will never become litter, so can you, so can anybody. And its EASY, real easy.
    But again, me cussing efin litterbugs is nothing personal!
    BTW, you forgot to add hanging food from a limb to your list. If one has concerns w/ protecting themselves, their food, the hikers behind them, AND the bear they should carry a bear canister. We are back to the guarantee argument on this subject too, for those of you wishing to debate.
    Sorry about the post within your post. I'm way behind you on the computer curve.

  8. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    Imagine the poor assistant manager at the AYCE restaurant. After two months of putting in job app's, finaly got this job last week. Manager big boss honcho is watching when in walks a stinky hiker with a bag of crap. "Hi there assistant manager person" he or she says, "would you mind if I carry my weeks worth of poo through your restauarant, and flush it down your toilet, along with a pound and a half of toilet clogging cat litter?". Can you imagine?
    A lot of municipal waste water treatment facilities regularly release raw sewage into bodies of water. Especially after a heavy rainfall. It is entirely plausible, that someone with good intentions could **** in the woods, carry it out, flush it back at home, and have it end up in the ocean.

    Sometimes... it's better to leave well enough alone.
    'All my lies are always wishes" ~Jeff Tweedy~

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOWGLI View Post
    A lot of municipal waste water treatment facilities regularly release raw sewage into bodies of water. Especially after a heavy rainfall. It is entirely plausible, that someone with good intentions could **** in the woods, carry it out, flush it back at home, and have it end up in the ocean.

    Sometimes... it's better to leave well enough alone.
    That has me thinking , maybe I should start playing the lotto and triple treatin me water!

  10. #250

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    I guarantee if I walk by 100 people on the trail and tell them that I bury my TP in the ground, 99 of them will not consider me a litterbug.

    If I walk by the same 100 people and tell them that I have a bag full of TP and human waste mixed with cat litter....unless 1 person is you....99 of them are going to consider me something much worse.

    Do whatever you want....I practice LNT and have actually been fortunate enough that I have not dug a cat hole since last summer...I'll tell you exactly where it is if you want to go check how it's doing.

    Sorry I'm not an outdoorsman enough for you because I bury my TP, In my consideration your not very outdoorsman like if you need to rely on a flush toilet and society in order to dispose of your waste.

    I prefer to stay in the woods and not walk into local establishments and ask them where I can flush my ****.

  11. #251
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    Correct me if I'm wrong (ha ha ha), but it sound like the poo packer outer folks have more of a negative impact on the environment than the poo buryer folks. Even if you use the, eh, reusable bag, you hve to use paper bags with it. The use of paper bags means more trees cut down and more landfill waste and at least some poo residue ending up at the land fill.
    I don't know why we can't just stock the trail with poo eating critters and use camo TP.

  12. #252

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    I'm thinking....TP/Poo carrying thinkers are very persistant.

  13. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong (ha ha ha), but it sound like the poo packer outer folks have more of a negative impact on the environment than the poo buryer folks. Even if you use the, eh, reusable bag, you hve to use paper bags with it. The use of paper bags means more trees cut down and more landfill waste and at least some poo residue ending up at the land fill.
    I don't know why we can't just stock the trail with poo eating critters and use camo TP.

    Paper bags are just, as you say, creating more trees cut for the paper and adding to the paper load that the sewer systems and treatment facilities have to deal with.

    I'll bury mine thanks....but thank you for clogging the Local and state sewers..or contributing to it's overuse and demise

  14. #254
    Registered User Summit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
    All conversations by middle age men eventually center around it. That or farting.
    Actually the conversation of us middle agers is a little bit broader . . . intake and exhaust!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Actually the conversation of us middle agers is a little bit broader . . . intake and exhaust!

    Don't forget friction

    That one was good...I'm laughing at my own joke

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homer&Marje View Post
    I guarantee if I walk by 100 people on the trail and tell them that I bury my TP in the ground, 99 of them will not consider me a litterbug.

    If I walk by the same 100 people and tell them that I have a bag full of TP and human waste mixed with cat litter....unless 1 person is you....99 of them are going to consider me something much worse.
    Really depends where you are.

    Common practice here on the outer islands and on glaciers.

    Plenty of ways to go about it.

  17. #257
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    All of you can come up with many reasons for not packing TP out, while you still admit it's wrong to bury other paper trash. And all of you can come up with reason for not packing solid waste out, when you wouldn't bury it in your own backyard because, well, that would be unsanitary. There are a lot of reasosn not to do the right thing, but few excuses.

    Doing the right thing. That's hard, sometimes, and as Spike Lee so clearly showed, is largely unrelated to with what the majority of people think they should do. But if you can't do the right thing, well....don't be surprised when the wrong thing happens.

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  18. #258
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    Default Camo TP?

    TD55: You mentioned camo TP. Now there's a good idea! Where can I get some?

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel View Post
    All of you can come up with many reasons for not packing TP out, while you still admit it's wrong to bury other paper trash. And all of you can come up with reason for not packing solid waste out, when you wouldn't bury it in your own backyard because, well, that would be unsanitary. There are a lot of reasosn not to do the right thing, but few excuses.

    Doing the right thing. That's hard, sometimes, and as Spike Lee so clearly showed, is largely unrelated to with what the majority of people think they should do. But if you can't do the right thing, well....don't be surprised when the wrong thing happens.

    The Weasel
    I've always had this thought/fear in the back of my mind that one day I'll thrust my trowel into the ground and hit someone else's mess! But you know what, that NEVER has happened.

    Now either I am very, very lucky, or poop and TP degrade rather quickly, because I've dug catholes in the vicinity of a lot of heavily used campsites.

    If everyone gave their poop a proper and fitting burial (pray over it if you wish! ) well away from trodden paths (trail & campsites), we wouldn't be having this discussion. I realize there are a few places where it is impossible to bury, so that situation would warrant packing it off to a place you could bury it later.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyJohn View Post
    TD55: You mentioned camo TP. Now there's a good idea! Where can I get some?
    Use black, brown, and green paint . . . unleaded preferably!

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