sleeping bag/bivy sacks/shelter's

[kelham]

Hey Chris,
The nemo is a good idea from a factory standpoint,
PRO's
Lightweight
No Need for Trekking Poles
Fully encompased bivy
CON's
Expensive
NOT WATERPROOF - I had a customer bring one back the other week and play hell with me.
Need to have NEMO's Airpump - not very strong

Overall nemo is a good company, but because some of their products are so new on the market, they are still learning which fabrics to use and what customers want.
I would hold off and look into the MLD or Bozeman Mountain Works Bivys
Regards

[kelham]

Hey Chris,
The nemo is a good idea from a factory standpoint,
PRO's
Lightweight
No Need for Trekking Poles
Fully encompased bivy
CON's
Expensive
NOT WATERPROOF - I had a customer bring one back the other week and play hell with me.
Need to have NEMO's Airpump - not very strong

Overall nemo is a good company, but because some of their products are so new on the market, they are still learning which fabrics to use and what customers want.
I would hold off and look into the MLD or Bozeman Mountain Works Bivys
Regards

[JAK]

My bivy bag is very heavy, but I've never used it as a coffin. I sleep in the open air with it, and put a very small poncho/tarp over it for heavy rain. I don't go up to 5000 feet in the open where I hike though. I'm usually under a big spruce tree. I've sat up reading in 20F though, with a sweater hatt and mitts on and my arms out. I'll have to wait and see how it works out for 0F and -20F. I am fairly confident I can get out of the wind and blowing snow where I travel though, so I'm not so worried about that. Still, it's the really cold air that's the thing. Not so bad when your moving or in the sack sleeping at night with a wool scarf over top, but for sitting up reading or trying to get your stuff organized or dried out I'm hoping to get a hobostove working well enough to make up the difference. I'm also thinking about changing my bivy bag so it opens up into a raincape I can wear on my back with poking around the hobo stove. Then I might still need a tarp, but it can be just a tarp, and the raincape/bivy can be a better wind and rain cape for winter, less open on the sides maybe. I might carry a wool blanket also, maybe use it inside the sleeping bag and under the raincape when its really cold, and just on top of my blue foam pad otherwise.

[Ender]

another question, how often do people find themselves not staying at shelters on average a week. My plan is to use leanto's as a primary shelter, im thinking mabey twice a week? just some feedback on that would be great. I found a bivy/tent thing that might be good for the job http://www.ems.com/catalog/product_d...82574488340425

In the beginning of the trail I used shelters a fair amount. By PA though, I was using them less and less, untill by CT I was tenting even if there was room in the shelter. The main reasons for this were space, privacy, comfort (the ground is WAY softer than a shelter floor), and bugs. I only really started using shelters again in NH or Maine because the bugs were much fewer by then, and even then, only when it was raining and I was feeling too lazy to set up a tent and no one else was around.

[No Belay]

My bivy bag is very heavy, but I've never used it as a coffin. I sleep in the open air with it, and put a very small poncho/tarp over it for heavy rain. I don't go up to 5000 feet in the open where I hike though. I'm usually under a big spruce tree. I've sat up reading in 20F though, with a sweater hatt and mitts on and my arms out. I'll have to wait and see how it works out for 0F and -20F. I am fairly confident I can get out of the wind and blowing snow where I travel though, so I'm not so worried about that. Still, it's the really cold air that's the thing. Not so bad when your moving or in the sack sleeping at night with a wool scarf over top, but for sitting up reading or trying to get your stuff organized or dried out I'm hoping to get a hobostove working well enough to make up the difference. I'm also thinking about changing my bivy bag so it opens up into a raincape I can wear on my back with poking around the hobo stove. Then I might still need a tarp, but it can be just a tarp, and the raincape/bivy can be a better wind and rain cape for winter, less open on the sides maybe. I might carry a wool blanket also, maybe use it inside the sleeping bag and under the raincape when its really cold, and just on top of my blue foam pad otherwise.

JAK, My only question would be WHY? Why do all of this to justify using a bivy when for the same weight and a whole lot less hassle, you can be in a semi confortable tent instead of a goretex ice cream sandwich. I'm confident I can rig my Rainbow and be inside long before you can finish setting up your leanto configuration. You're talking about the addition of extra blankets, ect just so you can make a bad idea work. I used a bivy on several long hikes and other than the temperature increase it gave to my bag, I found no advantage to it. Since the Rainbow can be set free standing, it can be used almost any where you can comforatbly plop a bivy.

[rafe]

Folks usually either prefer shelters and stay in them most of the time or prefer their tents and stay in them most of the time.

Really? I know that a lot of WBers profess to hate shelters, I'm not arguing that point. But is really an either-or proposition? Speaking for myself -- I use shelters as I please, and tent as I please, but the decision (to stay in a shelter or in my tent) isn't made until I get there... or get tired of walking for the day.

[KG4FAM]

Really? I know that a lot of WBers profess to hate shelters, I'm not arguing that point. But is really an either-or proposition? Speaking for myself -- I use shelters as I please, and tent as I please, but the decision (to stay in a shelter or in my tent) isn't made until I get there... or get tired of walking for the day.

Whenever I have been out there with the thru hikers I notice that the same folks stay in the shelters at night and the same folks pitch there tent every night. Every now and then depending on conditions someone will be different. Rain drives tenters to shelters and bugs drive shelter folks to tent, but in optimal conditions most folks have a preference.

[JAK]

My bivy bag is very heavy, but I've never used it as a coffin. I sleep in the open air with it, and put a very small poncho/tarp over it for heavy rain. I don't go up to 5000 feet in the open where I hike though. I'm usually under a big spruce tree. I've sat up reading in 20F though, with a sweater hatt and mitts on and my arms out. I'll have to wait and see how it works out for 0F and -20F. I am fairly confident I can get out of the wind and blowing snow where I travel though, so I'm not so worried about that. Still, it's the really cold air that's the thing. Not so bad when your moving or in the sack sleeping at night with a wool scarf over top, but for sitting up reading or trying to get your stuff organized or dried out I'm hoping to get a hobostove working well enough to make up the difference. I'm also thinking about changing my bivy bag so it opens up into a raincape I can wear on my back with poking around the hobo stove. Then I might still need a tarp, but it can be just a tarp, and the raincape/bivy can be a better wind and rain cape for winter, less open on the sides maybe. I might carry a wool blanket also, maybe use it inside the sleeping bag and under the raincape when its really cold, and just on top of my blue foam pad otherwise.

JAK, My only question would be WHY? Why do all of this to justify using a bivy when for the same weight and a whole lot less hassle, you can be in a semi confortable tent instead of a goretex ice cream sandwich. I'm confident I can rig my Rainbow and be inside long before you can finish setting up your leanto configuration. You're talking about the addition of extra blankets, ect just so you can make a bad idea work. I used a bivy on several long hikes and other than the temperature increase it gave to my bag, I found no advantage to it. Since the Rainbow can be set free standing, it can be used almost any where you can comforatbly plop a bivy.

That's a fair question. I think its just because it feels more like sleeping like a deer, or a moose or something. Seriously. I like finding that ideal spot under a big Spruce tree. Yeah I don't always find it, but I like being able to crash anywhere. I don't think its a real timesaver, or a weightsaver. In fact I rather enjoy pitching the poncho tarp over it even when I don't need to, unless the natural shelter is already just so perfect I don't want to add or take anything away from it. I'm not totally sold on the 2 pound CF military gortex bivy sac either, but it fits over the 72"x28" bluie foam pad just right, and its waterproof enough that my 4'x8' poncho tarp really only needs to 'suggest' rain shelter. I might try a lighter bivy someday, but I also think I might cut this one up first and make a raincape/bivy out of it first. If that works I'll see if I can make the same thing out of something might. I got it at Army Surplus in town for $60 or something like that, and they have more. If I do get the raincape/bivy thing working I think I might then try other tarps also.

I've got a photo from last winter kicking around someplace. It was a really pleasant night, but I admit its not that often that you find such a perfect spot. I didn't bother with the tarp that night of course as it wasn't raining. It was snowing but as you can see from the ground there wasn't much falling under that tree. It was a couple of feet deep in the surrounding woods.

Here it is from the thread on HikingHQ from last January...
http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread...ghlight=winter

the pictures...

My feet and my hatchet and the gracious Spruce tree I underslept:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...land2008_1.jpg

The branches formed a wigwam on the south side,
not really needed as it was only -2C with a very light snowfall,
2' of snow on ground but only an inch under the tree which I swept away:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...land2008_2.jpg

I used a 2oz Ziploc box for my Miscellaneous Stuff,
it fits perfectly inside my JAM2 backpack, near the top:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...land2008_3.jpg

Myself in Gortex Bivy reading "Too Kill a Mockingbird",
including the chapter on Snow in Maycomb Alabama.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...land2008_4.jpg

My wool mitts and stuff drying, best mitts I ever owned,
the mitts are knit from Briggs & Little wool which is excellent,
rugged and warm and dry very easily while wearing near the fire,
or just by wearing:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...land2008_5.jpg

My bivouac next morning from one angle showing my stuff.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...land2008_6.jpg

My bivouac next morning from angle showing 'wigwam'.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...land2008_7.jpg

On our way to Tweedle Dee Tweedle Dum Falls July 2007:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...Path2007_1.jpg

[JAK]

Those pics don't work from here but they do from HikingHQ for some reason.
Sorry about that.

[JAK]

My feet and my hatchet and the gracious Spruce tree I underslept:


The branches formed a wigwam on the south side,
not really needed as it was only -2C with a very light snowfall,
2' of snow on ground but only an inch under the tree which I swept away:


I used a 2oz Ziploc box for my Miscellaneous Stuff,
it fits perfectly inside my JAM2 backpack, near the top:


Myself in Gortex Bivy reading "Too Kill a Mockingbird",
including the chapter on Snow in Maycomb Alabama.


My wool mitts and stuff drying, best mitts I ever owned,
the mitts are knit from Briggs & Little wool which is excellent,
rugged and warm and dry very easily while wearing near the fire,
or just by wearing:


My bivouac next morning from one angle showing my stuff.


My bivouac next morning from angle showing 'wigwam'.


On our way to Tweedle Dee Tweedle Dum Falls July 2007:

[JAK]

Just for the record that was a sweet night, no colder than 25F, and not at all wet, no breeze in where I was, and no big clumps of snow falling down on me. lol. I went for a morning walk down to the river at 5am a few weeks later, just to try out clothing. That would have been a different story. Not much more breeze but a heck of a lot colder, like -25F or something. I've done that in the backyard but not deep in the woods yet, after hiking all day and so forth. That's going to take a little more figuring out. I don't want to rush out and by a giant bag but I don't want to die stupid either, or both. lol

Here is the pics and writeup from that early morning hiking...
-23C, what is that? That's only -10F. Man -25F must be really freaking cold.



I just got back from an early morning jaunt. Headed out across the ice. -21C at 5am. -23C by the time I got back. I got the bick lighter working but the hobbo stove I put together at the last minute sucked. So no oats for this lad. I wasn't out long enough to get hungry I just wanted to test things out.

Freakin Coyotes. When I got over to goat island (only about a mile from me house) I hiked up to the top of it, a small round island with mostly cedar and rock. Just as I was settling down to make a fire I heard these freakin coyotes. Not sure how many. We have big ones here. So I sauntered back down to the ice, with a big stick silly me, but they were gone by the time I got there. I found at least three tracks. Not sure where they were coming from or where they were going but I figure they must have picked up my scent and thats what all the noise was about. I'm thinking they are coming across the ice in search of food and the cold might be making them bold. I don't know dick about our coyotes. Lots of deer in the city. It would be nice to get a photo of our coyotes on the ice.

So after a failed attempt at breakfast I headed home but was about 15 minutes late so walked to work and here I am. I noticed a lot of tracks on the walk to work also but those could be dogs. So I need to work on my hobbo skills, but at least I was very happy with my clothing.

I am the worst photographer in the world.
My sad excuse for a hobbo stove is in the bottom pic, just behind my pointy stick:

[Tipi Walter]

Great fotogs, JAK! As you say, there's nothing quite like throwing down a bedroll and spending the night w/o the muss and fuss of setting up camp. Your pics reminded me of the hundreds of nights I cowboy-camped when I just didn't feel like setting up the tent. Whether stealth camping or not, I used the technique in cemetaries, next to churches, behind motels, on friend's decks and in their backyards and front porches, under a clump of rhododendron impossible for a tent, etc etc.

Even with a bivy sac I still got wet, and during blizzards everything was covered in snow except for my mouth. I spent a winter using a bivy and woke up many early mornings covered in a foot of snow. I just wish I carried a camera back then.

What's remarkable is this near guarantee: No matter how clear and star-studded the night sky is before you go to sleep, by 3am a fierce rainstorm will hit and there'll be some mad scrambling to either move to a tentsite or set up a tarp. And when the temps go below zero to 10 below, having a second sleeping bag atop the first is mighty helpful when bivy sac-ing. Cuts the wind, keeps you warmer, holds the snow. Bulk means warmth when bedroll camping, also means weight.

[JAK]

That sounds really great TW. Cemetaries eh. lol.

Your foot of snow memories remind me of a very good account I read in Napoleon Comeau's book "Life and Sport on the North Shore etc.

http://www.archive.org/details/lifes...orth00comerich

There is the night he is travelling cross country with an native friend and after they set up winter camp the old fashioned way, with hudson bay blankets and canvas and fir boughs and a fire, they discover they both forgot matches. These guys were both experts and yeah even they forget matches. This was like 120 years ago. So they basically slept in the snow with fir boughs under and over and hudson bay blankets under and over and they woke woke up pretty wet and had to get going right awat but they gave a pretty good account of how they did it. Interestingly they had lots of goose down back then as they describe having them in houses, but they always used either wool blankets or blankets woven out of 100 rabbit skins. I think down sleeping bags were really only made practical for travel on foot with the advent of nylon. My father had a canvas and wool lined down bag for 40 below but I don't think it was something a person would carry on foot.

Anyhow, I'll remember what you said about bulk. My sleeping bag is on the light side so I've always been careful to carry extra clothes. If I ever get a better down bag I will keep the extra clothes until I figure things out.

p.s. I see you can actually read the whole book in the link above.
Click on Flip Book Beta, or maybe the pdf.

I'll try and find the bit about sleeping in the snow. I think its in the chapters on trapping.

[JAK]

Incidentally it will be the 100th anniversary of this book next year.

... here it is. Sleeping in the Snow on page 230...

Now I've got to see if I can cut and paste it or link to it...

[JAK]

Here it is from the text version.
His 'partner in crime' on that trip wasn't native by the way, but was his brother. My apologies. lol

Sleeping in the Snow

One winter I had my
permanent camp on the border of Lake She-
tagomau, the head waters of the east branch
of the Manicouagan River. About the middle
of February my brother and myself decided to
go on an exploring trip of about two days'
walking, further north, on the lookout for
suitable marten ground. As we were not out
for meat we arranged to go as light as possible,
so as to cover more ground. We each carried
one axe, a quart tin kettle, and sufficient grub for
four days, wrapping this last in our shelter tent,
a piece of cotton ten feet long, by six wide
which made our pack and which we carried turn
about. We made an early start, as we travelled
over six miles on the lake and then took to the
woods, and had a long day's tramp. About four
o'clock we halted to camp for the night. There
was the same old job of clearing the snow, cutting
wood and branches and setting up the shelter tent
in a half circle. When all this was done, my
brother went for water to a small lake nearby. I
got ready to light the fire, when to our discour-
agement we found we had no matches. I usually
carried these in my pockets in a small vial, well
corked, and thus absolutely waterproof. In some
way, probably while chopping or collecting the

wood, I had lost them. Neither of us smoked,
consequently we had no loose matches, although
we fumbled all through our pockets just the same.
Night had now set in and it was well nigh impos-
sible to travel back, besides which we were very
tired, so I proposed that we should have
something to eat and then try and get a little rest
by lying down in the snow. If we found it too
cold we were to get up and walk back the best way
we could to our camp, which we estimated to be
about twenty miles away. We ate some dried
smoked beaver and frozen galettes camp made
bread for our supper, and then set to work pre-
paring our bed. I tramped down a trough in the
snow six feet long by about three wide. On the
bottom of this we laid a lot of the fine branches
we had cut for our camp. Over this we laid half
of the shelter tent, then one of our coats, removing
our shoes and putting them also under us. Then
we both got into the trench, bringing the
other half of the cotton over us and piling on
snow, up to our waist, using our second coat as
an additional covering over our body and shoul-
ders. With a branch in one hand I then swept
over us as much snow as I could and covered our
heads with the cotton, shaking some of the snow
over. For a little while it was rather cold, but
it soon got more comfortable and we went asleep
and to our surprise only woke up at daylight.
On the inside surface the snow had melted and

glazed, retaining the heat, but we felt damp
and chilly on getting out, and had to hurry up
and walk to warm ourselves. We returned to
our camp, and felt no ill effects from our night in
the snow. After that night each of us carried
a vial of matches. I slept in the snow again
after that, but I was provided with a good hare
skin blanket and coton wrapper, and we followed
the same plan occasionally to save the time and
work of making a camp when after caribou or on
a long tramp.



I hope everyone enjoys this story and other stories from this great book. I have my fathers copy and have learned alot from it, and have really enjoyed reading it at home on many nights, dreaming of those great northern woods of the later 1800s.

[No Belay]

Great photos JAK. I had to get up and put on another pair of socks after looking at them. Also enjoyed the story. I've been dancing for snow for weeks but haven't conjoured up anything but a dusting as of yet. I've got 2 OR bivys I'm going to put in the gear for sell thread after Christmas. Hope they find their wayto someone like you who will appreciate them.

Savor Happy!
TaTonka

[JAK]

I like their bivies. The microlight and bug bivy would both give me some considerable weight saving. Mine weighs 32 oz. I've thought of cutting it in half and taping it to my blue foam pad, but that might end up a bit sketchy. Someday I'll tyr that though. The other thing I've thought about if I did that was to use the blue foam pad and bivy tarp as my pack. Just roll everything up in it, and then something at the bottom and a belt, and something at the top and some straps. Maybe I'll butcher my new Jam2 pack. It only weighs 20oz, so what's left of it would still be 10oz maybe. In theory it could be more expandable and contractable that way though. I was thinking about one of these as a packframe also. 5300 years old. Now that would be getting primitive...

http://www.primitiveways.com/pack_frame.html
http://www.primitiveways.com/Iceman.html

[Gray Blazer]

I've got a SL1, SD Lightyear, SMD Lunar Solo and SMD Lunar Duo and the tent I grab every time is the Lunar Duo.

Man, that thing is a palace for 1 person - major room *plus* 2 big vestibules. At 3 lbs it's more or less the same weight as a 1 person SL1 or the other popular 1 man tents but with more than 2x the room. I'm 6'3" and I can sit up, move around, change clothes, cook, repack my pack and do everything I need to do without crashing into the tent walls and roof. It's also much better for my mental health to have plenty of room when I'm riding out a storm and this fills the bill nicely.

It's probably my favorite piece of gear.

Does it use hiking poles or it's own tent poles? Does 3 lbs include stakes? It sounds like what I'm looking for.

[slow]

Does it use hiking poles or it's own tent poles? Does 3 lbs include stakes? It sounds like what I'm looking for.

Gray,i use the cf poles since i dont use hiking ploes.Packed with,poles, stakes, mine comes in at 2.8 lb.

Next hookup you can use it,or i can mail it to you to try out.Great tent.

[Plodderman]

It is always good to have a second option as at times shelters are full or the company might not be what you desire. I bring along a tent and in some cases a tarp that doubles as a poncho.