Teens hit the Appalachian Trail - Danbury News Times

[Lyle]

Generalizations are just that; generalizations. It's typically cited trite specifics that somehow are supposed to defeat obviously established generalizations. I knew a few kids that benefitted from forced woodsmanship; IMHO most do not. Heck, there is likely a fraction of Boy Scouts that don't !! Blasphemy!!!

When I started working for Vision Quest the Rand Corporation had just completed a study of 100 youth who had successfully completed the VisionQuest program. In the study they found that at one year 60% of the youth had had no further contact with law enforcement. Pretty good odds to help some of these most hard-core juveniles.

The following excerpt is taken from the US Government's "Helping America's Youth" website:

Evaluation

The evaluation employed a quasi-experimental design with nonequivalent comparison-groups design. The first group studied consisted of 257 male juveniles placed at a probation camp. The second group (the treatment group) consisted of 90 males released from the VisionQuest program. Notably, one fourth of the juveniles rejected their assignment to the VisionQuest program and became the third group in the study. These 66 males were assigned to various placements. Although the experimental VisionQuest group consisted of more serious offenders than the comparison group, the differences between the groups were controlled statistically through the careful selection of relevant variables. Recidivism was the primary outcome measure in an 18-month follow-up.

Outcome

The evaluation revealed that VisionQuest youths were substantially less likely to be rearrested in the 1st year after release than the traditional group (55 percent compared with 71 percent). When differences in group characteristics were statistically controlled, 1st year re-arrest rates for VisionQuest youths were about half that of the control youths. In addition, a cost–benefit analysis showed that VisionQuest was more expensive to implement than the comparison programs, but the authors show that the benefits of reduced recidivism outweigh these higher costs.

Seems to me that these results are encouraging, at the least, that a good portion of the youth who end up placed in a program are salvageable.

One of the problems with some of the programs that others have mentioned on this post may be in the expectations given to the youth. If the counselors and staff involved do not believe in the program or the youth, the kids will pick up on this. These staff/counselors should do everyone a favor and find other lines of work. They certainly are not part of the solution, but an affirmation of the problem.

[ed bell]

One collection of statistics on what can be expected from many such "high-risk" children: (Warning! Contains facts! Those offended by such should NOT click on this link!)

http://www.childrensjustice.org/fatherlessness2.htm

And, that doesn't even touch on the ones growing up around (or even using) controlled substances from an early age..

Precisely why folks working in programs like the one my wife ran for SCJJ for a couple years attempt to make a difference by tackling the tough job of reforming troubled youth. Recidivism rates in my wife's Wilderness Camp were around 30% compared to 70% when the kids ended up in the juvenile detention center. I have no trouble with acknowledging that "high risk" adolescents can end up with destroyed lives. Having said that, believing that "high risk" kids are doomed is pessimistic and fatalistic. I do have a problem with disparaging and maligning programs that attempt to turn the tide for these kids.

BTW, the kids in the original article are not even close to being in the same ballpark as the adolescents my wife dealt with. That is why I still contend that MS has incorrectly called that program "yet another hoods in the woods". It's not. It's that simple.

[ed bell]

Back to the subject at hand, I have met quite a few groups (and their leaders) in the woods working with troubled youth. Fact is, violent youth and kids who are a real threat to themselves or others are rarely eligible for such programs. Those kids are incarcerated.

100% correct. There is an interview process that has many factors taken into account before an adolescent is selected. Part of the reason these programs work is the fact that the kids are kept away from the more hard core offenders that tend to do nothing but negatively influence the ones around them. Visit a Juvenile Detention Center and you will understand why all juvenile delinquents do not need to experience that.

[ed bell]

Good post, Lyle.

[Tin Man]

Generalizations are for those who think they are Generals on certain topics and are about as useless as their lack of basis in facts. In this case, I personally know one of the kids mentioned in the article. The kid's father is in jail and his mother took off to parts unknown. The kid is being raised by an aunt and uncle, who are upstanding citizens and parents. The kid does well in school, plays sports, and in all respects is just another great kid.

MS, you ass is showing... again.

[minnesotasmith]

Generalizations are for those who think they are Generals on certain topics and are about as useless as their lack of basis in facts. In this case, I personally know one of the kids mentioned in the article. The kid's father is in jail and his mother took off to parts unknown. The kid is being raised by an aunt and uncle, who are upstanding citizens and parents. The kid does well in school, plays sports, and in all respects is just another great kid.

A member of the "Well, MY grandpa smoked 4 packs of cigarettes a day and lived to be 100, so obviously this stuff about smoking can cause cancer is complete BS" club. You should look up the term "central tendencies" sometime. There are exceptions to many rules, but the rules are valid enough of the time, so they remain useful if imperfect predictors.

People with screwed-up upbringings end up screwed-up adults often enough that if the option's there (whether looking for an employee, a spouse, a business partner, or whatever), the odds are still better to find someone who chances are aren't maimed inside. Harlow's experiments and the axiom "as the twig is bent, so [usually] goes the tree" are particularly instructive...

[Tin Man]

A member of the "Well, MY grandpa smoked 4 packs of cigarettes a day and lived to be 100, so obviously this stuff about smoking can cause cancer is complete BS" club. You should look up the term "central tendencies" sometime. There are exceptions to many rules, but the rules are valid enough of the time, so they remain useful if imperfect predictors.

People with screwed-up upbringings end up screwed-up adults often enough that if the option's there (whether looking for an employee, a spouse, a business partner, or whatever), the odds are still better to find someone who odds are aren't maimed inside. Harlow's experiments and the axiom "as the twig is bent, so [usually] goes the tree" are particularly instructive...

Useful predictors? Maybe if no one steps into help. In this case, an aunt and uncle took in the boy and there are volunteers with a program to help. I am sure many of the other kids are supported by strong families as well. I hope you run into many of these groups on your next thru, so you can see for yourself that kids starting with a disadvantage are just kids and the programs are merely one piece to help keep them on track to lead normal lives. At a minimum, I would guess they will grow up with a broader, more open perspective than you appear to have.

Oh, and I don't belong to any dang club that is blind to the world around me... but you seem well entrenched in the Archy Bunker Club.

[modiyooch]

we are beating a dead horse. He is not going to budge. We cannot compete with what has been drilled into his head at dinner time nightly by his momma.

as we have been told, the fruit bears what the tree produces. It cannot change.

It not some of the facts that we are having problems, but the absolutes, generalizations and hopelessness.

[Tin Man]

we are beating a dead horse. He is not going to budge. We cannot compete with what has been drilled into his head at dinner time nightly by his momma.

as we have been told, the fruit bears what the tree produces. It cannot change.

It not some of the facts that we are having problems, but the absolutes, generalizations and hopelessness.

I know. I think he needs more help than these kids.