Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5
Results 81 to 99 of 99

Thread: Poop procedures

  1. #81
    Registered User
    Join Date
    01-26-2007
    Location
    maine
    Age
    60
    Posts
    4,964
    Images
    35

    Default

    Dig bigger hole.

  2. #82

    Default

    This thread put me in mind of two wildly inappropriate pooping incidents I happened onto. One was out in the Wind Rivers, out of Lander, WY and Dickinson Park. I was hiking off-trail in an area with small lakes and rock with higher peaks all around. I rounded a rock and was greeted by the sight of an enormous butt overhanging a deadfall. He was about 8-10' from the lake and I had to practically squeeze by him, since there wasn't much room before the rocks went straight up. I cleared my throat, scaring the poop (figuratively) out of him, and as I passed, I suggested that there might be better places and he told me to mind my own business. I started to say that poop right by a water source, on rock, was my business, but I've learned that you don't get anywhere trying to talk to that kind of jerk.

    The other incident happened in the GSMNP. A friend and I were hiking into Siler's Bald from the High Rocks (south) side and we came into a clearing not far from the main ridge. It may have used to be a designated camp site. We rounded a bend in the trail, and there was a guy in the middle of the trail, britches dropped, about to dump, but that was just the start. He was a dwarf, and his tall, blond, good looking (presumed) girl friend was standing by him. The dwarf grumped "A man can't take a s**t anywhere." I suggested the woods and he replied with an obscenity. As we rounded the next bend, out of sight, my friend asked "Did you just see a little guy, taking a crap in the trail?" I assured him I'd seen the same thing. I guess he thought he had had a hallucination...

    Well, three tales. My wife and I spent our honeymoon in the Wind Rivers. We arrived at our first site in the middle of a storm and camped too close to the lake (wilderness regs). When we moved up the next day, I just left the food hanging by the lake, only about 4' off the ground, since bear hunting is allowed in the Wilderness Area, I was just worried about varmints. The second AM, I got up, glanced down at the lake and food bag, to see it swinging and the rope slack. Below it was a yearling black bear, munching on the gorp which was in the bottom. I charged him, yelling and throwing rocks and chased him up the hill. I'd've wrestled him, if need be, with the nearest food being over 17 miles away and over an 11,800' pass. After everything settled down, my wife went further up the hill to a thicket for a nature call. I looked up to see her running down the slope, pulling up her pants as she came. Then, the bear exited the copse to the right, also at high speed. They'd almost scared each other to death...

  3. #83
    Registered User shelterbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-29-2007
    Location
    Reading, Pa.
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,844
    Images
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    Thank you, maybe they'll listen to you instead of me. It was obvious by the drift of this post that most don't understand the fly's role as disease vector. I knew this wasn't understood overseas in most places but I guess I wrongly assumed it was understood here...publik skools strike again.
    Most folks here in the states don't think about things like this, because most of us use flush toilets: poop into the bowl, the poop is immediately covered with water (so it doesn't smell), turn the handle and it "magically disappears". Nobody knows where it goes, and nobody cares, as long as it's out of sight! We are so far removed from the "recycling process" that many of the details come as quite a shock!

    From a public health standpoint, the flush toilet is a great advance over the old "chamberpot-tossed-out-the-window" of days gone by, but it uses an incredible amount of potable water, which in turn has to be cleaned before it can be re-used for anything. Dry toilets make a lot more sense, but they have a PR problem that needs to be overcome.
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning how to dance in the rain!

  4. #84

    Default

    So is it safe to say that when you hike your own hike, do you poop your own poop? Meaning, to each his own? I think the idea of the new mouldering privies is to unify the way in which our backcountry business is done. It still does not solve the problem of how we should crap in the woods. For every good pooper out there, we'll always have the turdmonger doing it their way.

    More emphasis needs to be placed on crapping when there is no mouldering crapper. And like Rock or Wolf said, use a modified duff approach.

    Man, I love talking about crapping.

  5. #85
    Registered User shelterbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-29-2007
    Location
    Reading, Pa.
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,844
    Images
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chknfngrs View Post
    So is it safe to say that when you hike your own hike, do you poop your own poop? Meaning, to each his own? I think the idea of the new mouldering privies is to unify the way in which our backcountry business is done. It still does not solve the problem of how we should crap in the woods. For every good pooper out there, we'll always have the turdmonger doing it their way.

    More emphasis needs to be placed on crapping when there is no mouldering crapper. And like Rock or Wolf said, use a modified duff approach.

    Man, I love talking about crapping.
    I think I may get a rise out of LW with this, but if we had no shelters at all, and practiced completely dispersed camping with good cathole techniques, then technically we would have no need for privies of any kind. Waste would be distributed over such a wide area that there would be adequate natural decomposition taking place and no public health issues would arise.

    BUT, when you build a shelter (a resource management tool designed to concentrate human impact in one area), then you have to provide a sanitary facility of some type in order to avoid generating public health problems. And without running water, electricity, central heat, and road access, your options are somewhat limited.

    By adopting the mouldering toilet as a "de facto" standard, I worry that the ATC and the NPS are using the concept of "federal supremacy" to run rough-shod over some of the sanitary codes that are currently in place in many states (Pa. being one of them). And I realize why this is being done, but it still bothers me.
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning how to dance in the rain!

  6. #86

    Default What...

    Quote Originally Posted by shelterbuilder View Post
    I
    By adopting the mouldering toilet as a "de facto" standard, I worry that the ATC and the NPS are using the concept of "federal supremacy" to run rough-shod over some of the sanitary codes that are currently in place in many states (Pa. being one of them).
    Superior sanitary codes does PA, etc., have, that the Feds are running roughshod over on hiking trails?

  7. #87
    Registered User shelterbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-29-2007
    Location
    Reading, Pa.
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,844
    Images
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    Superior sanitary codes does PA, etc., have, that the Feds are running roughshod over on hiking trails?
    As a highly urbanized state, Pa.'s sanitary codes make no ditinction between "front-country development" and "back-country development". ALL development is assumed to be with access to roads, pressurized water, electricity and central heating, and any concessions to a level of development that is less than "front-country" assumes that, at some point in the future, all development will be at "front-country" levels. Hence, the codes do not know what to do with back-country sanitiation, and they make NO provision for it. And because there is no money to be made in back-country sanitiation, no one is doing much serious work on it.

    Into this void steps the NPS, which basically has the right to say to the state, "you will do as we recommend", and on the AT, it seems that the current solution that is being offered to the back-country sanitation problem is the mouldering toilet. But, BY DEFINITION, it fits the state's model of a failed treatment system, in that it allows untreated sewerage to come into contact with the ground!

    Do mouldering toilets work? Yes. Are they better than nothing? Yes. Are they fairly low maintenence? Yes. Do we ( here in Pa. and possibly elsewhere) need another (legal) alternative that falls within the the state's guidelines? YES.
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning how to dance in the rain!

  8. #88
    Registered User shelterbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-29-2007
    Location
    Reading, Pa.
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,844
    Images
    18

    Default

    Please excuse the typos - my server keeps dumping me and it's hard to make long, exacting posts! That should have read "distinction".

    And yes, Pa.'s code needs to be re-written to include back-country sanitation for areas (such as the AT and other trails) that will forever remain back-country. I've been telling folks that for years, but, since there's no money to be made by making those changes, it's like talking to a brick wall!
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning how to dance in the rain!

  9. #89
    Registered User Wags's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-17-2008
    Location
    hershey, pa
    Age
    43
    Posts
    2,080
    Images
    46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shelterbuilder View Post
    my server keeps dumping me

    saying that in a thread about poop = priceless

  10. #90
    Registered User greengoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-17-2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Age
    56
    Posts
    6
    Images
    8

    Default

    SGT Rock, Great rec using a tree as a bench seat. It might not be tactical but whose targeting your ass on the AT? Did you poop off the trail recently southeast down the ridgline from Standing Indian because I saw paper just on the other side of a downed tree about 50 meters off the trail but no poop. Must have been a female. I'm all about scraping up the duff with my heel and covering everything with leaves. My six year old & I just knocked out 25 miles and he earned his poop badge. I taught him to go on the hillside with one hand in support uphill now I'll have to train him on the bench seat method- too cool. However y'all poop- cover it all up and mark it with a stick [Thank you FROLICKING DINOSAURS]. Wraning: STAY CLEAR behind Mt. LeConte's shelter; TP strung everywhere and green flies on the loose. Time for the Dirty Jobs guy to visit. GG

  11. #91
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-03-2002
    Location
    Maryville, TN
    Age
    53
    Posts
    14,864
    Images
    248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greengoat View Post
    SGT Rock, Great rec using a tree as a bench seat. It might not be tactical but whose targeting your ass on the AT? Did you poop off the trail recently southeast down the ridgline from Standing Indian because I saw paper just on the other side of a downed tree about 50 meters off the trail but no poop. Must have been a female. I'm all about scraping up the duff with my heel and covering everything with leaves. My six year old & I just knocked out 25 miles and he earned his poop badge. I taught him to go on the hillside with one hand in support uphill now I'll have to train him on the bench seat method- too cool. However y'all poop- cover it all up and mark it with a stick [Thank you FROLICKING DINOSAURS]. Wraning: STAY CLEAR behind Mt. LeConte's shelter; TP strung everywhere and green flies on the loose. Time for the Dirty Jobs guy to visit. GG
    It wasn't me. I get way off the trail for it and didn't hike the AT for that section - I was on the BMT.
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

  12. #92
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-03-2002
    Location
    Maryville, TN
    Age
    53
    Posts
    14,864
    Images
    248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    Superior sanitary codes does PA, etc., have, that the Feds are running roughshod over on hiking trails?
    I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

  13. #93
    Registered User shelterbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-29-2007
    Location
    Reading, Pa.
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,844
    Images
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.
    It comes under the heading of "Federal Supremacy". They don't do it very often, but they CAN. It's usually done very politely, so as not to ruffle too many feathers, and from what I gather by reading between the lines, it's done on a case-by-case basis rather than as a blanket approach.
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning how to dance in the rain!

  14. #94

    Default

    The fence between Mexico and Texas is an example of all environmental and other laws being overriden. With the HSA, even federal laws can be overriden, not to mention state and local...

  15. #95
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-03-2002
    Location
    Maryville, TN
    Age
    53
    Posts
    14,864
    Images
    248

    Default

    Oh I can agree with the fact that the Federal Government overrides local laws for certain reasons - as has been pointed out that is normally in cases where security of the nation or vital national interests are at stake. I am EXTREAMLY dubious about Federal Supremacy being used to allow people to poop in different toilets on a trail, and based on my experience dealing with 'I was told' I bet dollars to donuts that there is no Federal Supremacy being invoked in the design of privies.
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

  16. #96

    Default

    I prefer the bend and squeeze method. Cover it with some duff or whatever else is available and then place a rock on top of that.

  17. #97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.
    Wrong, when DOD uses environmental laws to subvert training like at NTC is is done to "save money", so there is more money for defense contractors. DOD upper echelons are always looking for a reason not to train because meaningful, effective training costs real money. This is the primary reason why Special Operations Command came to be, it took a national embarrasment (Desert One in Iran) to shine the light on this. As a result SOCOM's funding was sacrosanct and couldn't be raped.

    Like you said about munitions shipping, it had nothing to do with safety, it was about saving Uncle Sam a few bucks, so there is more left for congress and the contractors to pilfer.

    I live near an air force base that has been a hazardous waste dump since WWII, when they were informed that their hazardous wastes were pouring into a creek on post and was in violation of EPA regs, their solution was to build a pipeline directly to the Ocmulgee River and pour the same waste directly into the river, bypassing the creek, and the taxpayers paid for the pipeline.

  18. #98
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    73
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.
    Rock, I hate to break it to you, but the USG and, in particular, the DoD, override state and local environmental laws pretty routinely. Most recently, Dod/Navy has tried to disregard California rules regarding use of California state waters during recent Navy training exercises using high power sonar, which is so powerful that it can kill marine mammals at significant distances. (Think sitting next to a speaker putting out about 500db of power. Yes, it can kill.) Similarly, the EPA has overridden California air quality regulations routinelyh in the last few years, to the point where California has had to sue all the way to the Supreme Court (and won).

    This may be a good time to move this topic.

    TW
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  19. #99
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-03-2002
    Location
    Maryville, TN
    Age
    53
    Posts
    14,864
    Images
    248

    Default

    Yes, but those things are done in the national interest for training. A lawyer could probably weigh in on this, but as I remember from going through the BS training relating to that, DoD waivers are what are used to cover those in the interest of national security though we know it ain't got a lot to do with it. On the other hand I have witnessed Army units paying HUGE fines to the tune of millions out of operational budgets for violation of local, state, and sometimes federal laws when it comes to hazardous waste. That includes places like Fort Stewart, Fort Hood, and especially the NTC. If the Army could use Federal Supremacy willy-nilly they would have gotten out of those fines.

    And, as I just boned up on a little Google Law (so take it for what it is worth). Federal Supremacy applies to laws which congress has passed superseding local and state laws where there are conflicting laws. It does not apply to "recommendations by the NPS". In those cases these recommendations must be within established laws. Now, back when I went through that BS course one thing that appeared quite regularly was the DoD waiver for things in the case of national security. But there was never a waiver for local or state laws or even federal law for "expedience of trail pooping"
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5
++ New Posts ++

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •