Do you pack out your feces?

[Tin Man]

If you are packing your poo, consider where it is going and the impact. Moving waste may not be the solution it is cracked up to be. Moving stuff increases the carbon footprint and often produces more problems, not less. Consider what is happening in CT, a state that used to produce 50% of its electricity from nuclear plants and has had to resort to alternative source including burning garbage. Town dumps have filled and were subsequently closed or rather turned into transfer stations. Legally disposed of garbage is hauled away to incinerators where it is burned and releases toxic chemicals into the atmosphere. There are no easy answers and moving stuff around is not always the right answer.

The following is a one-sided presentation of problems in CT, but does point out some of the issues that need addressing...

http://www.environmental-justice.org...ej_issues.html

[The Weasel]

Packed out human waste MUST go into toilets or waste dumping stations, not dumpsters.

TW

[GGS2]

If you bury your poop 16" to 18" ...

Shea, most of the rest of your post is not supported by any study I know of. Sounds like you're making future coprolites. "16" to 18" "? Man, that is a major excavation! You'll must pack a Pulaski for digging catholes.

I go for a much shallower hole (hard enough in the roots) and try to cover it with something, like a branch or a rock. The best information I have is that it should be in the active (humus) layer of the soil to degrade rapidly. This is one reason it is not advisable in deserts and alpine areas: not enough active soil. There's a whole discussion about what to do in such places, from under a rock to smearing it on a rock surface. But the consensus when in a high use area is pack it out to a safe disposal site.

By the way, the ecology and dynamic of a single cat hole is quite different from that of a compost heap or a pit privy. They tend not to compost. Rather like an orange peel on the surface. Give it a change, and it may dry up and remain for some time. One possibility for protecting a cathole from excavation, and speeding decomposition is to bury or scatter some wood ash in or over it.

One guy in "The Book" solved his problem on short hikes by simply not eating and not ****ting. Not an AT thru option, I would think, but it does work. You have to plan for one last dump before leaving facilities, or dig one cathole. It can even be the preferred option for heavy guys like me.

[Footslogger]

Well ...if this is where it's all headed I'm glad I never threw out my bright orange trowel. Now I will have to cut off the handle and drill some holes in it though to support my ultralight strategy.

'Slogger

[GGS2]

If you eat less preservatives, you will poop less, true? Eat slower and your body will do a better job of processing too.

Nah, if you et natural stuff, you poop a lot. All that good, wholesome fiber. The stool or scat is also fibrous and friable, so it can degrade rapidly.

[The Weasel]

Nah, if you et natural stuff, you poop a lot. All that good, wholesome fiber. The stool or scat is also fibrous and friable, so it can degrade rapidly.

Right, right, right, wrong.

TW

[Lone Wolf]

Well, what doodoo do you doo?

i fling my feces in and on shelters

[hobojoe]

i fling my feces in and on shelters

I always give it to day hikers "want some nutty fudge? It's fresh!"

[Alligator]

In response to The Weasel.
1. Right. I don't see many big problems on the AT either. Certainly very few areas where pack it out is needed.

2. All shelters ought to have privies, there shouldn't be toilet areas IMO. Those 100 people are a wave, not necessarily a huge amount on a yearly basis. It happens all the way up the trail, with attrition.

3. I haven't seen any studies to make me excessively worried about transmission from campers/hikers.

4. I wouldn't care if BSP did. I'd never crap up there on the Tableland anyway. If there is an actual determination of a problem say in the Whites, I'll look closely at their determination.

5. The privy spot is a loss. No biggie, the whole shelter area is when compared to the woods. Privies do not appear to be often moved though either. Some privies are composting. Can't say I've heard good things about them yet though.

6. I used your numbers. Now it's may. (It depends but it's not long generally). I hiked last weekend through No. VA. All the springs were flowing. 2003 was a monsoon. It's variable, but the AT is not in a desert.

7. I'm not a scout and the BSA is not a land manager.

[wakapak]

i fling my feces in and on shelters

LMAO!!! That was a good one!!

[gold bond]

Well ...if this is where it's all headed I'm glad I never threw out my bright orange trowel. Now I will have to cut off the handle and drill some holes in it though to support my ultralight strategy.

'Slogger

Sea to Summit or whatever now has a trowel called the "IPOOD"...titanuim! Very light!! Folds up so small you could loose the dang thing.

[sheepdog]

Backpackers like Kephart and Fletcher and Norman Clyde and the other oldtimers were a special breed not given to chitchat and banter. In fact, the longer they held their bowels, the quieter they became. The stoic expression you'd see in their photographs was due in large part to their dangerously distended colons. Most didn't even go to towns, ever.

I have a set of replica plugs made by an amish craftsman for the above three gentleman. The originals were lost in a tragic trailer fire along with a priceless collection of Elvis on black velvet art. They are signed and numbered.

[Tin Man]

i fling my feces in and on shelters

And all along I thought the smell was from people who need depends, but were ultra-lighting.

[envirodiver]

(5) Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period. It might drain somewhat, if it isn't in clay, but feces doesn't really decompose. Privies simply fill up over time and are then resited or pumped out. The solids and bacteria are going to remain in them unless bacteria killers are put in. Privies are, at best, a 'less worse' alternative to catholes or nothing.

TW you are wrong about the decomposition of feces. Composting privies do break the feces down and thereby decrease volume and kill bacteria (that is what composting does), utilizing both aerobic (primary) and anaerobic (secondary) bacteria. The purpose of the black plastic drainage pipe that goes down into the underside of the privy is to allow air to enter the material, The most effective mechanism is aerobic decomposition. The leaves that you put into the privey reduce the pH slightly, but the primary purpose is to keep the solids from compacting and keep separation to allow air to pass through.

It is true that the passive composting privys along the trail are not as effective as the fan aerated privys that are powered either by solar power or electricity. It is also likely that during times of heavy use such as thye rush of thrus it may not keep up, but it will catch up.

Composting privys are well studied and utilized in many locations.

The resulting compost is an excellent soil amendment.

[The Weasel]

In response to The Weasel.
1. Right. I don't see many big problems on the AT either. Certainly very few areas where pack it out is needed.

2. All shelters ought to have privies, there shouldn't be toilet areas IMO. Those 100 people are a wave, not necessarily a huge amount on a yearly basis. It happens all the way up the trail, with attrition.

3. I haven't seen any studies to make me excessively worried about transmission from campers/hikers.

4. I wouldn't care if BSP did. I'd never crap up there on the Tableland anyway. If there is an actual determination of a problem say in the Whites, I'll look closely at their determination.

5. The privy spot is a loss. No biggie, the whole shelter area is when compared to the woods. Privies do not appear to be often moved though either. Some privies are composting. Can't say I've heard good things about them yet though.

6. I used your numbers. Now it's may. (It depends but it's not long generally). I hiked last weekend through No. VA. All the springs were flowing. 2003 was a monsoon. It's variable, but the AT is not in a desert.

7. I'm not a scout and the BSA is not a land manager.

Let's see how much more we can narrow disagreement and find some points we agree on:

1) I didn't say that there weren't places on the AT where packout isn't needed. In the southern section, I'd strongly suggest that GSMNP require it, or at least strongly encourage it. Even where they have privies, they are not always functional or adequate. The toilet fields exist, and have to stop.

2) See above about privies. The AT from Springer to Damascus, especially, gets extremely heavy hiking usage (GSMNP heaviest but the rest, too). 100 per day is a constant for several weeks, and the AT is probably the most heavily used trail (again, espcially from GA into VA) in the US. An emergency? No. But if we pack out banana peels, why aren't we packing out human waste. Or can we start to bury "compostable" garbage along the trail? Given that human waste is more dangerous than paper packaging, why is it "good" to pack out the latter and "unnecessary" to pack out the former?

3) Giardia doesn't carry a marker about its source. If it's in the water downstream, it came from upstream. But humans play a role in the cycle, and the more that's broken, the better. How many (avoidable) cases is too many?

4) Above treeline is just an absolute. If human waste doesn't decompose - and it generally won't, above treeline - it should be packed out, especially in high use trail areas like the Presidentials. This should be a nobrainer.

5) I think we are both dubious about privies, except that they are less worse than many alternatives.

6) The AT is wetter, generally, than Anza-Borrego, yes. But much of it isn't 'wet' and much of what is, isn't always. Don't assume that waste is going to decompose as fast as you think it is. If ever.

7) BSA has good experts both on staff and that it works with, throughout the outdoor field. If they say something about LNT, they've checked it out; with several million members, if they are wrong, they hear about it pretty fast. Give them credit for that.

So far, all of the discussion here that is agin' the idea generally sounds like what I heard before LNT became generally accepted: "It will degrade. We've always done this. There's not that much." I think that's changing.

TW

[The Weasel]

TW you are wrong about the decomposition of feces. Composting privies do break the feces down ***.

Env, I don't disagree about composting privies. But most of those on the trail, and most of those in backcountry areas on other trails, aren't composting privies. Very few are.

TW

[envirodiver]

TW more and more of the privys are the moldering privys which utilizes the composting process and have been studied along the trail.

My disagreement with you was that you made a blanket statement that "Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period." You may want to go back and look at your original post. If it was an oversight on your part or you mispoke I apologize for bringing it up. But, I felt that it was important that the facts be correct.

Maybe another solution in lieu of hauling our feces around would be to install more of the moldering privies along the trail. It is a well studied and highly utilized technology.

[turtle fast]

Urine is normatively microbiologically sterile so elimination of urine into the environment shoulden't be a big problem as long as it is away from water sources. Though it does have a high amount of nitrogen and has trace salts which normally are not a problem for plant life.

Fecal matter though is an issue. Out west in the desert people have taken to "frosting rocks" with feces and as the air drys it....flakes off the rock. They pack out toilet paper. I have known folks in more temperate areas to bury their feces and burn the toilet paper.....

[The Weasel]

TW more and more of the privys are the moldering privys which utilizes the composting process and have been studied along the trail.

My disagreement with you was that you made a blanket statement that "Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period." You may want to go back and look at your original post. If it was an oversight on your part or you mispoke I apologize for bringing it up. But, I felt that it was important that the facts be correct.

Youj're right that I didn't make the distinction, since they are still very rare, unfortunately, and with NPS budget hits, likely to remain that way for a long time. They're also hard to get into remote places and expensive to service. Great when they work.

TW

[Tin Man]

Youj're right that I didn't make the distinction, since they are still very rare, unfortunately, and with NPS budget hits, likely to remain that way for a long time. They're also hard to get into remote places and expensive to service. Great when they work.

TW

Excuse me Weasel, but when was the last time your were on the AT? I see more moldering privies than pit toilets on the AT where I have recently hiked in VT and NH. I cannot speak for other states.