Do you pack out your feces?

[hobojoe]

If you eat less preservatives, you will poop less, true? Eat slower and your body will do a better job of processing too.

[Alligator]

Continuing my thought experiment.

Assume all 2000 hikers start the same day. They'll average about 10 miles a day? That means they will utilize an area of 10,560,000 square feet, 10 miles of trail, 100 ft to a side as a "catbox". Of that 10,560,000 sq ft, 700 sq ft. will be catholes. That's if they don't use the privy. Then they move on and decomposition starts.

[Tipi Walter]

Continuing my thought experiment.

Assume all 2000 hikers start the same day. They'll average about 10 miles a day? That means they will utilize an area of 10,560,000 square feet, 10 miles of trail, 100 ft to a side as a "catbox". Of that 10,560,000 sq ft, 700 sq ft. will be catholes. That's if they don't use the privy. Then they move on and decomposition starts.

Amen, end of story. Pass the toilet paper.

[hobojoe]

Continuing my thought experiment.

Assume all 2000 hikers start the same day. They'll average about 10 miles a day? That means they will utilize an area of 10,560,000 square feet, 10 miles of trail, 100 ft to a side as a "catbox". Of that 10,560,000 sq ft, 700 sq ft. will be catholes. That's if they don't use the privy. Then they move on and decomposition starts.

and according to this poll 15% will just duke on the ground. *** mate?

[Tipi Walter]

and according to this poll 15% will just duke on the ground. *** mate?

Those 15% got confused and thought this was a Dollywood/Gatlinburg website.

[River Runner]

I try to use latrines when available, cathole when they aren't.

It's ridiculous to think that it's worse for my waste to be buried out in the wilderness where it can decompose and add nutrients to the soil than for it to go into a septic tank & perculate out into the soil. Then, what happens to the solids that have to be eventually pumped out of the septic?

If it is going in a public system - that's even worse. It's churned through some chemicals & released into a stream.

And if I pack it out, where do I dispose of it? In the trash, where it goes to a dump & sits in a plastic bag forever? What happens one of these days when we run out of landfill space?

When I hiked from Springer to Unicoi Gap in mid-April 2006, I saw very little sign of improperly disposed of waste. The heavy use of that area is probably why they have latrines & it seems like it is working well to me.

For those using a rock to cover it, that is not the best method for breaking it down, as it does not allow as much moisture that is important for the process, so consider digging a cathole instead.

[sheepdog]

And sheepdog, your idea is old-hat. Horace Kephart came out with a polished oak fecal-plug over 70 years ago. Back in those days men were men and could hold their colons shut for up to 12 days(using a Kephart plug), leaving more time for the woods and less for town trips.

TW if my idea is so old hat , Why don't I remember reading in any of my trail books authors saying, "As I stride out of town with a heavy pack and a lighter colon, I am ready for the trail"????

[hobojoe]

Right, only use a rock when no one is watching you, HAHAHA

[saimyoji]

Sometimes I'll just take one look at my pot of food and put it all right into a dug cathole. Why bother with the processing?

too funny. youre in rare form today tipi

If you eat less preservatives, you will poop less, true? Eat slower and your body will do a better job of processing too.

well, maybe if by slower you mean over a longer period throughout the day. but if you mean taking one hour instead of 30 min....probably not gonna matter.

what i've been been reduced to with my bad aim: find an out of the way place with lots of leaf litter, a ways off the trail, clear a spot, drop my turd and wipe, then dig a hole that will accommodate it, push it in with the TP, drop the TP on top, fill in the hole with a stick,cover with litter and cover with a big enough rock.

I've just had too many experiences with a protruding turtle and tummy pains waiting while I dug the hole only to miss.

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf, I'm an environmentalist. I haven't seen enough data for the AT to make a recommendation on packing out TP nor feces. I'm not making that recommendation at this time. When these types of controversial recommendations are made without supporting data, it tends to backfire. It's best to have some hard facts available beforehand.

It also helps to have alternative solutions. I don't know the situation now, but I never understood why there were no privies in some places such as the Smokies.

Alligator,

I agree with you but I have seen several Park Ranger or some environmental groups that have made their case hikers need to pack out their own feces. Around Mount Whitney, CA for example, hikers are require to pack out their own feces.

http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/26/pa...on-mt-whitney/


As you said it would help to have an alternative. One of the problem with privies is who is going to build them and clean them on a daily bases. On the AT it is not as hard compare to some places out west. Some hikers also have a habit of not using them properly -using them as a trash can or making a "mess" by not using the privy properly.

Wolf

[Mags]

Around Mount Whitney, CA for example, hikers are require to pack out their own feces.

Which is an alpine area.

Much more sensitive to impact that most of the southern Appalachians I would think.

Man...this thread is a sh** storm.

[Heater]

Then, what happens to the solids that have to be eventually pumped out of the septic?

If it is going in a public system - that's even worse. It's churned through some chemicals & released into a stream.

We mix it with yard trimmings and sell it back to the Yuppies.

Dillo Dirt.

[The Weasel]

I don't see it as a problem everywhere. I've thought about it a bit. I have not seen any research that suggests that disease is significantly increased through backcountry catholing in general here on the East Coast. Where there are problem spots, I'll take the recommendations under consideration.

Your thought experiment is flawed. It does not take into account the amount of unutilized area selected by a hiker. A hiker uses about an 8" diameter hole (maybe less). That's 50 square inches and about 1/3 of a square foot. 2000 hikers are using about 700 square feet. That's a little over a square of 25 ft/side. Call that per day. How many acres of land are out there? A lot of the feces end up in privies too. The feces are going to decompose in 6 mos. to 2 years approximately, under the ground. It's not a big deal to me. Humans are part of the system. We urinate and defecate too. Lotta extra nitrogen in there too.

Gator, I appreciate what you're saying. But to continue the discussion (this will be long; those who don't care should just ignore it):

(1) No, it's not a problem everywhere, and there is a spectrum. Bushwhacking Isle Royale miles from a trail (use this example as 'least used national park in the lower 48) means that catholes (in proper locations, which can be a problem there - rocky) are probably OK. The number of bushwhackers is small, and the catholes will be miles apart.

(2) On the other hand, high-use and highly concentrated usage areas do have problems. That means campsite areas and (along the AT) shelters without privies (which includes most campsites and many shelters) have extremely high concentrations of people, particularly during high usage times such as when thrus are starting. Some shelters will have 100+ people around them a night, and the waste overload becomes massive. This is particularly true in shelter areas where there is a designated "toilet area". These are dangerous areas, frankly, to even walk through to find a place to squat.

(3) Disease transmission is going to be relatively rare and often not capable of detemrination, since diagnosis may come days or weeks after infection, and may be caused by runoff from a higher elevation entering a water supply miles downstream. I might not worry too much about, say, Apple Orchard Shelter's water being badly infected from human waste. But I'd be very leery of lower-elevation water sources at GSMNP organized campgrounds. Since giardiais can result just from swimming in infected water, problems can go long distances and not clearly part of the oral/fecal cycle. (Yes, they are part of that cycle, but a kid in a creek who then kisses Mom may not be thought of as part of the classic "drinking contaminated water" problem.

(4) I think we agree that feces simply doesn't decompose in arid areas, including above the tree line and that packouts are needed then. (Or do we differ?). That's a bunch of miles of the AT up in New England, including Katahdin. I'll be a bit surprised if Baxter doesn't go mandatory about it in a few years.

(5) Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period. It might drain somewhat, if it isn't in clay, but feces doesn't really decompose. Privies simply fill up over time and are then resited or pumped out. The solids and bacteria are going to remain in them unless bacteria killers are put in. Privies are, at best, a 'less worse' alternative to catholes or nothing.

(6) Feces doesn't dissolve in 6 months to 2 years. It may. That depends on how much rain there is, how much gets to ground level, and how recurrent it is. Had a lot of rain in your area lately?

(7) Again, while recognizing that catholing remains acceptable, here's the policy we teach in Scouting. It recognizes much of what I say above:

Human Waste

Proper disposal of human waste is important to avoid pollution of water sources, avoid the negative implications of someone else finding it, minimize the possibility of spreading disease, and maximize the rate of decomposition.
If an outhouse or bathroom is available, use it. In most backcountry locations, burying human feces in the correct manner is the most effective method to meet these criteria. Solid human waste must be packed out from some places, such as narrow river canyons. Land management agencies can advise you of specific rules for the area you plan to visit.
Contrary to popular opinion, research indicates that burial of feces in mineral soil actually slows decomposition. Pathogens have been discovered to survive for a year or more when buried. However, in light of the other problems associated with feces, it is still generally best to bury it in humus (decomposing plant or animal matter that forms organic soil). The slow decomposition rate emphasizes the need to choose the correct location, far from water, campsites, and other frequently used places.

Toilet Paper

Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, nonperfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should be either thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out, which is the best way to practice Leave No Trace. Never burn toilet paper because of the danger of starting a wildfire.

from http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/re...3_dispose.html

Reflect and comment as you wish, all.

[Tipi Walter]

TW if my idea is so old hat , Why don't I remember reading in any of my trail books authors saying, "As I stride out of town with a heavy pack and a lighter colon, I am ready for the trail"????

Backpackers like Kephart and Fletcher and Norman Clyde and the other oldtimers were a special breed not given to chitchat and banter. In fact, the longer they held their bowels, the quieter they became. The stoic expression you'd see in their photographs was due in large part to their dangerously distended colons. Most didn't even go to towns, ever.

[GGS2]

The only time I haul other people's waste is during emergency evacuations.

On the other hand, when I thru-hiked the AT several years ago, my backpacking buddy Johnny B sneaked a bag of his own feces into my pack and I unknowingly carried it all the way to Maine.

Your pack is so big you can lose a bag of **** in it for 2000 miles?

[Footslogger]

Backpackers like Kephart and Fletcher and Norman Clyde and the other oldtimers were a special breed not given to chitchat and banter. In fact, the longer they held their bowels, the quieter they became. The stoic expression you'd see in their photographs was due in large part to their dangerously distended colons. Most didn't even go to towns, ever.

==============================

So ...I guess you could say then that they had a "$hitty Disposition" ??

'Slogger

[hobojoe]

Never burn toilet paper because of the danger of starting a wildfire.

Especially while in contact with your a**

[Tipi Walter]

Your pack is so big you can lose a bag of **** in it for 2000 miles?

Hey, don't make me laugh. I'm still upset.

[GGS2]

===================================

I know this is serious ...but I just got this vision of "dumping stations" like they have for RV parks.

'Slogger

That's exactly what they have in places out west, as I understand. I've never actually "experienced" this.

[Tipi Walter]

===================================

I know this is serious ...but I just got this vision of "dumping stations" like they have for RV parks.

'Slogger

I have a friend who runs a "turd hostel" or stool retreat near Stecoah Gap and it's a dumping station for AT thru-hikers. The trail passes right thru the building and hikers can easily download their poop bags and urine sacs into the numerous porcelin basins which stretch for several hundred feet. I asked my friend about it and he said, "This is where white-blazing and brown-blazing meet up. You're walking both trails at the same time when you come here." I was impressed.