Ticks and Lyme Disease

**Frau** · 03-04-2008, 19:50

I live right here in tick central. Several years ago I pulled a tick off the back of my leg, which had only been there for a few hours. Within 2 days I had the tell-tale concentric circles but they were purple, not red. I had no flu symptoms.

My doc said heck with blood tests, the results take too long to come back, and put me on doxycycline. Taken care of.

I ALWAYS SPRAY UP, when out in the woods. DEET on me and permethrin (sp?) on clothing.

I pulled three ticks off my dog two weeks ago. We had been on the AT, middle of February. I gave two SOBO section hikers a life this weekend and the young lady had gotten a tick 3 days from the start of their hike from Front Royal. Departure date was Feb. 11.

Haven't read the many citations here. I don't need to. When the dog gets a tick I spray up and stay sprayed up until next November.

This is MY EXPERIENCE only. I live with the threat of Lyme every day, even in my yard. Were I going to thru hike I would take a prescription for doxy. with me for just in case.

HYOH,

Frau

**take-a-knee** · 03-04-2008, 20:19

Originally Posted by Frau

I live right here in tick central. Several years ago I pulled a tick off the back of my leg, which had only been there for a few hours. Within 2 days I had the tell-tale concentric circles but they were purple, not red. I had no flu symptoms.

My doc said heck with blood tests, the results take too long to come back, and put me on doxycycline. Taken care of.

I ALWAYS SPRAY UP, when out in the woods. DEET on me and permethrin (sp?) on clothing.

I pulled three ticks off my dog two weeks ago. We had been on the AT, middle of February. I gave two SOBO section hikers a life this weekend and the young lady had gotten a tick 3 days from the start of their hike from Front Royal. Departure date was Feb. 11.

Haven't read the many citations here. I don't need to. When the dog gets a tick I spray up and stay sprayed up until next November.

This is MY EXPERIENCE only. I live with the threat of Lyme every day, even in my yard. Were I going to thru hike I would take a prescription for doxy. with me for just in case.

HYOH,

Frau

Well said.

**Wags** · 03-04-2008, 20:46

wow man i didn't mean to get you all fired up.

my source is my girlfriend, a vet student at Upenn and her sister, a medical in her last year of residency at geissinger. they argued b/t 48 and 24 hours, but definitely not under 24. they both agreed on that point. you may think my information is wrong, but i'll take the advise of 2 MDs i know in real life over some posting on the internets. remember just b/c it's in cyberspace doesn't mean it's legit

please don't read into my post that i don't believe in using chemicals to prevent. i'm just saying that pulling them off is possible and if done properly, can also be preventative

**Frau** · 03-04-2008, 21:55

BTW--I gave to 2 SOBO hikers a LIFT, not a life

from the store in Glasgow to Petite's Gap, via the wonderful spring WAY down Petite's Gap Rd. Nessmuk and I generally pick up hikers coming in and out of Glasgow when we seem them.

Pay it forward.

Frau

**Erin** · 03-04-2008, 22:21

Beware of another tick disease...Ehrlichilosis. I picked it up in middle Tennessee last summer and that was the sickest I have ever been in my life. I ended up in urgent care with headache and high temp, every joint, especially my knee joints, was painful. l I left with the doxycycline. They tested me for Rocky Mountain,Lyme and Ehrlch. and the first two were negative and Ehrick. was inconclusive but Dr. said blood tests are not always relieable and slow and said Ehrlick, since he had seen alot of it. The disease does elevate liver enxyme levels, and mine were, so I had to get that checked for two months until it was normal again. Ehrlik.can be dangerous. We had two children die of it in Missouri in 2007. With children it goes into menningitis. Urgent care was very aware of the disease. I am way more careful of ticks now. I had never been to urgent care and am very healthy, so getting this was a suprise since I have picked ticks off and out of me my entire life.

**Critterman** · 03-04-2008, 23:29

Originally Posted by Appalachian Tater

1. Lyme disease can be transmitted in less than 48 hours.

2. You will NOT necessarily be able to see the tick. I even posted a link to one study that showed that checking yourself for ticks was not a valid way to prevent Lyme.

3. The drug of choice is doxycycline, which is closely related to tetracycline.

4. Routine administration of prophylactic antibiotics is not routinely recommended just because a tick bit someone.

You might want to read this from the CDC.

**Appalachian Tater** · 03-05-2008, 00:10

Originally Posted by Critterman

You might want to read this from the CDC.

You mean the very first phrase that says, "Although this is not routinely recommended,"? Which is exactly what I said?

The only reason I bother to comment at all on Lyme disease is because there is so much MISinformation and it is a serious disease and Appalachian Trail hikers are at high risk. Every hiker should read up on the disease, how it is transmitted, what the symptoms are, what the treatment options are, and take appropriate precautions.

There are people who think you always get the bulls eye rash, that it always occurs at the point where the tick was, that checking yourself for ticks is an effective way to prevent tick-borne disease, that unless the tick is attached for 48 hours you cannot get the disease, that wearing dog collars on your ankles will prevent you from getting the disease, that ticks build nests, that tetracycline is the drug of choice, that it is recommended to be taken routinely anytime you have a tick attached, etc.

That's EIGHT serious factual errors, just in this ONE thread. Spreading misinformation about this disease could cause severe permanent handicaps. This is a serious matter. Ticks are by far the most dangerous non-human animal on the trail, and the one hikers are most likely to have problems with.

**take-a-knee** · 03-05-2008, 00:33

Originally Posted by Appalachian Tater

You mean the very first phrase that says, "Although this is not routinely recommended,"? Which is exactly what I said?

The only reason I bother to comment at all on Lyme disease is because there is so much MISinformation and it is a serious disease and Appalachian Trail hikers are at high risk. Every hiker should read up on the disease, how it is transmitted, what the symptoms are, what the treatment options are, and take appropriate precautions.

There are people who think you always get the bulls eye rash, that it always occurs at the point where the tick was, that checking yourself for ticks is an effective way to prevent tick-borne disease, that unless the tick is attached for 48 hours you cannot get the disease, that wearing dog collars on your ankles will prevent you from getting the disease, that ticks build nests, that tetracycline is the drug of choice, that it is recommended to be taken routinely anytime you have a tick attached, etc.

That's EIGHT serious factual errors, just in this ONE thread. Spreading misinformation about this disease could cause severe permanent handicaps. This is a serious matter. Ticks are by far the most dangerous non-human animal on the trail, and the one hikers are most likely to have problems with.

You are right Tater, Lyme is a potentially devastating disease, a hell of a lot more devastating than anything that could result from someone popping 200mg of doxycycline (who isn't allergic to it) after pulling a tick off of them. I knew doxy was the DOC for most rickettsials, I just get so pissed off sometime at some of the crap you post sometime my fingers just blurted out the wrong thing. Tetracycline would work anyway, cause they are in the same family, though not in one dose AS IT APPEARS DOXYCYCLINE DOES!

**Erin** · 03-05-2008, 00:56

Come one guys, looks as if your are agreeing here. The point, as you know, is to educate hikers about the potential of serious tick disease. It is there, it is very dangerous for children, and untreated hikers. Hikers are people that usually buck it up, tough it out and don't connect flu like symptons to a tick bite, especially the young hikers. Keep this thread going...if this year is like last year, there will be many cases of Lyme (the most devistating for long term effects), Rocky Mountain and Ehrlichillosis.

**take-a-knee** · 03-05-2008, 01:05

Originally Posted by Erin

Come one guys, looks as if your are agreeing here. The point, as you know, is to educate hikers about the potential of serious tick disease. It is there, it is very dangerous for children, and untreated hikers. Hikers are people that usually buck it up, tough it out and don't connect flu like symptons to a tick bite, especially the young hikers. Keep this thread going...if this year is like last year, there will be many cases of Lyme (the most devistating for long term effects), Rocky Mountain and Ehrlichillosis.

Tater and I just like to rib one another Erin, no stronger opponent of the over prescription and use of antibiotics exists than yours truly. Lyme is so potentially devastating though, I think it is prudent to use it post exposure. Telling someone to take an "ancient" antibiotic like doxycycline isn't as potentially harmful as using a first-line drug like Cipro or Levaquin. Those drugs are far too useful to allow resistance to build against them

**nightshaded** · 03-05-2008, 09:24

it has been mentioned that sulphur is an effective repellent...is it as effective as permethrin? also, is permethrin something (or sulphur, for that matter) that can be easily acquired, say at an outfitters', along the trail?
ticks aren't much of an issue here in ohio (and it's not exactly the weather for bugs), and i'm having a heck of a time finding anything aside from 100% deet at the outfitters here .

**Critterman** · 03-05-2008, 09:40

Originally Posted by nightshaded

it has been mentioned that sulphur is an effective repellent...is it as effective as permethrin? also, is permethrin something (or sulphur, for that matter) that can be easily acquired, say at an outfitters', along the trail?
ticks aren't much of an issue here in ohio (and it's not exactly the weather for bugs), and i'm having a heck of a time finding anything aside from 100% deet at the outfitters here .

Sulphur is not reliable. Years ago that was all there was available but now there are much better products. Permethrin is available from REI, Campmor and probably a whole bunch more. All the Walmarts here carry it now but whether they will carry it later in the year I don't know as their outdoor stuff tends to be seasonal.

**Critterman** · 03-05-2008, 09:48

Originally Posted by Mercy

"Okay, I just have to ask, what does a "ticks nest" look like? Is it more like an ant hill or a bird nest or a wasp nest?"..............

When a female tick falls off a host and lays her hundreds of eggs, the eggs will be in a relatively small area. The eggs hatch and the larval ticks will be within that small area and if you are unlucky enough to walk through that area you will get many ticks where some one who walks 10 yards away may get none. I think that is what Mercy is talking about.

**dessertrat** · 03-05-2008, 10:04

Remember that ticks can't jump. You are more likely to get them on you when bushwhacking or otherwise crossing through heavy vegetation. If you are on a bare trail, the odds of picking up a tick are far less.

**dessertrat** · 03-05-2008, 10:07

Originally Posted by Frau

I live right here in tick central. Several years ago I pulled a tick off the back of my leg, which had only been there for a few hours. Within 2 days I had the tell-tale concentric circles but they were purple, not red. I had no flu symptoms.

My doc said heck with blood tests, the results take too long to come back, and put me on doxycycline. Taken care of.

I ALWAYS SPRAY UP, when out in the woods. DEET on me and permethrin (sp?) on clothing.

I pulled three ticks off my dog two weeks ago. We had been on the AT, middle of February. I gave two SOBO section hikers a life this weekend and the young lady had gotten a tick 3 days from the start of their hike from Front Royal. Departure date was Feb. 11.

Haven't read the many citations here. I don't need to. When the dog gets a tick I spray up and stay sprayed up until next November.

This is MY EXPERIENCE only. I live with the threat of Lyme every day, even in my yard. Were I going to thru hike I would take a prescription for doxy. with me for just in case.

HYOH,

Frau

The blood tests are also not very reliable. I would want doxy if I got bit by a tick, period. I have seen too many people with serious effects from Lyme that they tested "negative" for.

**take-a-knee** · 03-05-2008, 11:03

Originally Posted by Critterman

Sulphur is not reliable. Years ago that was all there was available but now there are much better products. Permethrin is available from REI, Campmor and probably a whole bunch more. All the Walmarts here carry it now but whether they will carry it later in the year I don't know as their outdoor stuff tends to be seasonal.

I have found sulphur to be quite reliable. I attended sniper school at Ft. Bragg NC many years ago. Part of the course (one week) consists of "stalking", this is a euphemism for slithering along the ground endlessly wearing a burlap camo suit. We did this at the end of May. The instructors told us to go to a drugstore and buy a one pound box of flours of sulpher and a equal amount of baby powder (cuts the smell and makes the application last longer). Mix them together in a large bowl and fill a travel sized baby powder dispenser with the mix. Liberally sprinkle your garments. The students in the course who did this didn't get a single tick. Several "didn't like the smell", they didn't like the ticks they were pulling off of them even less.

I would use the sulpher in addition to the permethrin. A tick is an arachnid (eight legs), like a chigger. If you look at a commercial tick/chigger repellent, you will see that sulpher is the main ingredient.

**Old Grouse** · 03-05-2008, 11:57

Remember that ticks can't jump.

I thought that was only the white ones.

**Critterman** · 03-05-2008, 12:31

Originally Posted by take-a-knee

I have found sulphur to be quite reliable. I attended sniper school at Ft. Bragg NC many years ago...................

I agree many years ago it was about all you had but times have changed.

**take-a-knee** · 03-05-2008, 12:49

Originally Posted by Critterman

I agree many years ago it was about all you had but times have changed.

Times may have changed but biochemistry has not. It worked then, it works now. Use it in addition to the permethrin as I already stated, not in lieu of.

**tina.anderson** · 03-05-2008, 15:35

I don't understand why the test results for Lyme disease are still so inaccurate. Aside from the rings that could appear on your skin, what are some other more advanced symptoms of Lyme disease?

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