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  1. #61
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    From a Food and Drug Administration
    How much more info do you people need? Omnivore or vegetarian, rich or broke, you can live your life quite nicely without large quantities of soy products.
    Thanks. I'll put some time into checking this out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    From a Food and Drug Administration article: http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

    "...specific components of soy, such as the soy isoflavones daidzein and genistein, not the whole food or intact soy protein.

    The problem, researchers say, is that isoflavones are phytoestrogens, a weak form of estrogen that could have a drug-like effect in the body. This may be pronounced in postmenopausal women, and some studies suggest that high isoflavone levels might increase the risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer..."
    Some very selective quoting there, MS. I suggest folks read the entire FDA article that you linked to, particularly the sentence that immediately follows your ellipsis in the quote above:

    Research data, however, are far from conclusive, and some studies show just the opposite--that under some conditions, soy may help prevent breast cancer....

    Unlike the controversy surrounding soy isoflavones, available evidence on soy protein benefits is much clearer. That's why FDA limited its health claim to foods containing intact soy protein. The claim does not extend to isolated substances from soy protein such as the isoflavones genistein and daidzein.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    Thanks. I'll put some time into checking this out.
    Hey MS...sorry to jump in late here but I'll add some fuel to the fire. (thanks, by the way, for all the linkage, you saved me time)

    As a health nut and lactard I was, for a time, using powdered soy protein as part of my post-workout routine. This also included a horse-pill multivitamin and glucosamine (a well-known amino that helps stimulate ligament regeneration and keeps your joints all healthy and lubbed).

    I first had concerns with the Soy when I realized how downright gassy it made me. I asked the local GNC sales duder and he informed me of 3 important things which were later confirmed by my doctor (for the sake of the story I'll streamline it and not write out what each told me b/c it was litterally the same thing).

    #1 Soy protein is a "complete protein"; however, it is the least bio-available of the common proteins. What bioavailable means is it is a rating of how much of the actual protein makes it to the muscles for regeneration. Highly bioavailable proteins closely mimic that which our body is built on. The highest being egg white protein and other meat protein (red meat, white meat, fish, etc). The next highest being milk-based protein (goat's whey being the best and cow weigh being next). Finally, vegtable based protein is the least available. This includes TVP, Soy, and the protein you'd find in potatoes and grains.

    #2 Soy protein puts undue stress upon your immune system including your liver. It is recommended that ALL humans consume less than 2 servings of soy in any given day. Too much soy leads to fatty liver conditions similar to alcohol abuse. Note that I had blood work done immediately following my doc's discussion and found that I had "abnormal liver functions". Within 2 weeks of discontinuing consumption of the 20 grams of soy protein powder my blood work came back with no deviations from the norm. I was also told by the doctor that the soy would also effect the usefulness of the glucosamine. Since amino-supplements are not FDA regulated he could not comment on this directly.

    #3 Soy-based protein consumption releases estrogen. Thanks to MS for posting this so clearly as I would have had to have done the research. Clearly there is a preponderance of information on this subject so I'll leave it at this: When your muscles regenerate, heal, etc they do best immediately following a work-out. Working out releases testosterone in men and women to varying degrees. What I was doing by ingesting soy was immediately dropping my testosterone levels below what they would have been before I went and ran/swim/biked/lifted/etc.

    Ok, so I stopped using the soy...switched to goat's whey to avoid the lactard issues...and immediately noticed a change. First, almost no gas. Second, a quick drop in effects upon my liver. Finally, a quick and noticable change in my body. I was sore for less time. Also, I put on muscle after having "plateaued" (sp?) for a few months while on soy.

    I've tried to help other hikers realize that by ingesting soy or vegtable-based protein they are doing well by their dietary needs but not by the muscular-skeletal needs of their athletic bodies. Soy protein has the same value as the 8 grams of protein you'd get from instant oatmeal. Yes, your body needs it to maintain energy; however, that protein isn't going to help your muscles repair the "microdamages" that eventually lead to you getting stronger.

    I'm going to be 100% honest and say that I am not an expert in this field. An informed consumer...that's how I'd classify my understanding. When the sales duder and my doc spoke I understand everything.

    See, I grew up in a home with two food scientists (one being a certified nutritionist, for whatever that's worth) who have worked at Unilever (read: Lipton) since before I was born. My parents have worked on or around the groups developing those great noodle packages hikers use on a daily basis. Actually, Pops is now more towards the Ragu side (a joke amongst my friends is that tomatoes litteraly put me through college) and my mom works in the test kitchen developing new products or new uses for old products.

    When I was a kid I could get my hands on all sorts of cool things...like a 2 gallon bag of powdered caffeine...or purple Venezualan Ketchup. So, when I was planning the hike I asked Pops to hook me up with hundreds of noodles and powdered TVP (not realizing that TVP was essentially Soy).

    "That's a complete meal, right?"

    And then I got a dissertation on the three things listed above and how he essentially said that while soy protein based diet was unhealthy. When asked how vegetarians do it he said that they must rely heavily on milk and egg-based proteins.

    And then I just took home some purple ketchup...which is cool...but not when you're 25.

    In summation - Animal protein good. Soy Protein bad.

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    There's a whole bunch of protein that's not soy or animal. Everybody is different and not everybody metabolizes food in the same way. When it comes down to it, you're the only one who can say what food is doing in your own body.

    I think Squeaky's plan to have a team meet him at road crossings with pizza would have been excessive, if he wasn't trying to finish the whole trail in less than six weeks.

  5. #65

    Default Good post, Johnny Thunder...

    Protein complementation is a dietary strategy based (whether someone doing it understands it or not) based upon the fact that protein that is part of a human body is composed of specific amino acids combined in a precise ratio. The body tries to make use of what amino acids are available to it at a given meal. When it runs out of the first amino acid it needs, the rest of the amino acids are wasted WRT making body proteins, and are just burned as fuel (stressing the kidneys, I might add).

    This is why corn is traditionally eaten with beans in Mexico, rice with beans in the South, milk with cold cereal in the U.S., and so on.

    Adequate protein complementation is indeed doable solely with vegetable foods. However, it is much easier to make more full use of vegetable protein if a little meat or milk is consumed with it, milk and meat having considerably more desirable amino acid ratios than do the vast majority of vegetable foods. When you make a bean and rice casserole, throw in a small can of meat, say, to improve it nutritionally.

    Likewise, many minerals (zinc, magnesium, and iron, among others) are far more nutritionally available from animal products than they are from plants. This is why vegans who don't make up the missing parts of their diet with supplements (mimicking the meat their bodies are designed to eat, but don't get) often show signs of mild mineral deficiencies, even if there theoretically is enough of those minerals in the plants they eat.

    A vegan vegetarian diet is considerably better than the average American diet, but is still not the ideal. The best achievable diet would include a modest amount of animal products, say, something like about 3 decks of cards of meat a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    A vegan vegetarian diet is considerably better than the average American diet, but is still not the ideal. The best achievable diet would include a modest amount of animal products, say, something like about 3 decks of cards of meat a week.
    That is all?
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  7. #67

    Default For MS and/or Johnny Thunder

    Hey guys, perhaps I missed this but where do nuts fit in the protein hierarchy, especially peanuts which are a staple of mine both on and off the trail? Are they considered similar to "plant based" or whole grain protein sources? I realize that peanuts are legumes - does that put them in the same category as soy or vegetables? What about other nuts? We all know the value of walnuts for Omega 3s.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?
    I agree with you about ramen; I think its the most overrated hiker food out there, not worth the time or energy expended to cook it. And while I didn't carry freeze dried spinach or broccoli thats only because I didn't think about it as broccoli is considered to be one of the "best" foods you can eat. I did carry freeze dried peas and added them to a bunch of dinners. Taro had some kind of dried fish mailed to him which I gladly accepted when he offered it.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post

    BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?
    Is that how you were able to hike so fast?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max patch View Post
    Taro had some kind of dried fish mailed to him which I gladly accepted when he offered it.
    Down along Rte 101 along the coast of western Oregon, I once bought dried salmon from a roadside food stand. This wasn't like lox, and it wasn't in foil. It was sold in chunks the size of brownies and they were wrapped in saran wrap. Very tasty! I wish I knew where to buy that stuff.

    Failing that, there's lox (smoked salmon) in vacuum-wrapped in foil. It's non-perishable until you open the package. I've had that in mail drops before. Maybe what Taro had. You can get salmon steaks in foil at supermarkets these days, but that's not the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookerhiker View Post
    Hey guys, perhaps I missed this but where do nuts fit in the protein hierarchy, especially peanuts which are a staple of mine both on and off the trail? Are they considered similar to "plant based" or whole grain protein sources? I realize that peanuts are legumes - does that put them in the same category as soy or vegetables? What about other nuts? We all know the value of walnuts for Omega 3s.

    Peanuts are like soy nuts are like black beans are like red beans etc.

    Legumes/plant/soy protein is all, to a degree, lumped together.

    Like MS pointed out...some have varying ratios of essential amino acids and can be, to some extent, better than others.

  12. #72

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    Thanks for that informative post Johnny Thunder, I'd been trying to put on a little muscle for several years using soy protein, with very little success. I guess I need to look for another source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWhips View Post
    There's a whole bunch of protein that's not soy or animal. Everybody is different and not everybody metabolizes food in the same way. When it comes down to it, you're the only one who can say what food is doing in your own body.

    I think Squeaky's plan to have a team meet him at road crossings with pizza would have been excessive, if he wasn't trying to finish the whole trail in less than six weeks.

    Yeah, there are other types of protein besides vegtable and animal...like...uh...what else do we eat now a-days? Candy?

    I mean, we either eat things that grow (vegtables, legumes, grains) or the things (or byproducts of things) that eat this things that grow (animals, eggs, milk).

    So, maybe there are categories amongst those groups. But in reality, it's as MS said...the different proteins have different ratios of amino acids which build and rebuild muscles. Some have better ratios for humans than others do. Cows, for instance, require different ratios than we do which is why they can get away with eating grass all day. Go eat grass all day and tell me that it works for you. No seriously, do that, it tastes like chicken.

    Disclaimer- You are not a cow. You are not able to eat the same things cows do and be healthy.

    And while you might be right about being the only person who knows how food works in your body I have to disagree. For instance, I got to believe that the FDA probably has a pretty good idea. Yeah, and the guy who works with the products were talking about here...you'd think he'd know what's healthy and what's not.

    But anyway, you're right, only you know what works for you. Me? I recently found out that Crestor makes me fly. I've been swoopin' around Philly fightin' crime and ****. Mucho fun. (Astra Zeneca Disagrees!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    Thanks for that informative post Johnny Thunder, I'd been trying to put on a little muscle for several years using soy protein, with very little success. I guess I need to look for another source.

    TaK, I'm trying not to jump...one of the things I did early on was not take in enough total protein for the small amount of supplements to work. A "supplement" is just that...it supplements what is supposed to be a well balanced diet.

    Fitness "experts" and various nutritionists have all sorts of "rules of thumb" for gauging your protein intake. I've heard, and try to prescribe to taking in a minimum of 1 gram of protein for every pound on your body (while trying to put on muscle weight). Some people say 2 grams per pound but those people probably have their hand in the pockets of GNC or whomever. Also, it's downright impossible to hit that figure.

    I see it this way - If you weigh 175 lbs and eat a boat load of salad all day, one scoop of protein powder isn't going to do the trick. Your body is not going to use that protein for how you intend it to be used. Instead, it's going to be used as necessary energy to keep your blood pumping, brain firing, etc.

    Nutritionists call this "protein stripping" but I think that's another brilliant GNC-Marketing-Team term for something that we all sort of know already.

    So just be mindful of your intake. A regular chicken breast has somewere between 40 and 80 grams of protein...and that's just one! (those foil packets are probably on the lower end of this spectrum b/c of the size)

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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    A vegan vegetarian diet is considerably better than the average American diet, but is still not the ideal. The best achievable diet would include a modest amount of animal products, say, something like about 3 decks of cards of meat a week.
    I agree. I love the idea of the 100% raw vegan diet. But, then, there's the B12 problem. It's either take supplements, or an occasional fish. I think fish is tastier.

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    So if my primary protein sources are peanuts, and beans, I am shorting myself?

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    How about a wider base of proteins, not just one single source. Some examples from my normal hiking diet:

    (This is the grams of protein, not the serving size)

    Grits (corn) 5 grams per day.
    Breakfast Bar (oats, nuts and such) 8 grams per day.
    Beans - 12 grams
    Tortillas - 8 grams
    Milk - 12 grams
    Beans and rice - 24 grams
    Sausage - 10 grams
    Nuts - 10 grams
    Jerky - 14 grams

    I got all this from reading the labels on stuff. So that makes it 101 grams of protein. I read that 1 gram per kilo of body mass is about right - so this makes me about 1.4 times what I need if that is correct.
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  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by mudhead View Post
    So if my primary protein sources are peanuts, and beans, I am shorting myself?
    There are a couple of hundred million Indians who are lacto-vegetarians. They eat mostly rice and a variety of vegetables with legumes such as lentils and chickpeas supplemented with small amounts of milk, yoghurt, butter, cheese, etc. They are not protein or B12 or anything-else deficient.

    It IS a lot easier to get complete nutrition if you are willing to be lacto- or lacto-ovo-vegetarian. A few eggs and dairy products go a long way to helping achieve that goal. These days you can once again buy dairy products and eggs from animals that are treated relatively well if that is a concern.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWhips View Post
    I agree. I love the idea of the 100% raw vegan diet. But, then, there's the B12 problem. It's either take supplements, or an occasional fish. I think fish is tastier.
    Jack Lallane has lived most of his 93 years as a lacto-ovo (egg and milk) vegetarian and I believe he eats fish. He was preaching the importance of diet way back when morons like Jim Fixx were saying eat all the bacon cheesburgers you want, just go run. Fixx has been dead for over twenty years and Jack most likely swam for an hour this morning, after he lifted weights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    How about a wider base of proteins, not just one single source. Some examples from my normal hiking diet:

    (This is the grams of protein, not the serving size)

    Grits (corn) 5 grams per day.
    Breakfast Bar (oats, nuts and such) 8 grams per day.
    Beans - 12 grams
    Tortillas - 8 grams
    Milk - 12 grams
    Beans and rice - 24 grams
    Sausage - 10 grams
    Nuts - 10 grams
    Jerky - 14 grams

    I got all this from reading the labels on stuff. So that makes it 101 grams of protein. I read that 1 gram per kilo of body mass is about right - so this makes me about 1.4 times what I need if that is correct.

    That looks good...if the 1 per kilo figure works for you then you're fine. Check this site out:

    www.nutritiondata.com

    If you go to each foot type's page and scroll down half way it shows the calculated value of the protein's quality based on the proportion of amino's. 100 being the target. Peanuts scored a 66. Chicken scored a 136.

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