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  1. #81

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    [quote=Appalachian Tater;440817]There are a couple of hundred million Indians who are lacto-vegetarians. They eat mostly rice and a variety of vegetables with legumes such as lentils and chickpeas supplemented with small amounts of milk, yoghurt, butter, cheese, etc. They are not protein or B12 or anything-else deficient.

    I'm not so sure about that, my wife was an ICU nurse for fifteen years and she cared for a lot of ethnic Indians (hindu type). Her observation was that they were chronically malnourished and very fragile, and usually much younger in years than they appeared to be, IE 55 and look 70.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    Jack Lallane has lived most of his 93 years as a lacto-ovo (egg and milk) vegetarian and I believe he eats fish. He was preaching the importance of diet way back when morons like Jim Fixx were saying eat all the bacon cheesburgers you want, just go run. Fixx has been dead for over twenty years and Jack most likely swam for an hour this morning, after he lifted weights.
    Unfortunatley a lot of hikers think like Jim Fixx. Just because you burn calories when hiking doesn't make it ok to use squeeze margarine and intake other bad fats.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by max patch View Post
    Unfortunatley a lot of hikers think like Jim Fixx. Just because you burn calories when hiking doesn't make it ok to use squeeze margarine and intake other bad fats.
    Total agreement. Just because you need to fight to maintain a caloric surplus (more calories eaten than burned) in order to keep weight on doesn't mean that the calories themselves are what's going to keep you healthy. Balanced diet. Balanced diet. Balanced diet.

    The inverse is true about watching people diet. You cant expect a mere calory defecit to be what causes you to lose weight. It will be part of the reason but the other is still maintaining a balanced diet.

    When I was HS wrestler I used to look at my teamates choking down rice cakes and wonder if they ever paid attention in health class.

  4. #84

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    I'm not so sure about that, my wife was an ICU nurse for fifteen years and she cared for a lot of ethnic Indians (hindu type). Her observation was that they were chronically malnourished and very fragile, and usually much younger in years than they appeared to be, IE 55 and look 70.
    Yeah, Americans are pretty fat. Even your average European looks a little malnourished in comparison. Go back and look at group photos of Americans from the 1950s even, they look a little skinny, too. But there are hundreds of millions of truly malnourished people, but being vegetarian is not the cause of it. Eating too little food or too little of a variety to get complete nutrition is the cause of malnutrition, barring a condition that prevents absorption of something or another. If anything, we eat too much animal protein for good health.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunder View Post
    That looks good...if the 1 per kilo figure works for you then you're fine. Check this site out:

    www.nutritiondata.com

    If you go to each foot type's page and scroll down half way it shows the calculated value of the protein's quality based on the proportion of amino's. 100 being the target. Peanuts scored a 66. Chicken scored a 136.
    That thing calculated my protein needs of only 58.
    SGT Rock
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  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    That thing calculated my protein needs of only 58.
    When you're out hiking all day you need extra protein to repair the damage to your body. As long as you don't eat excessive amounts of protein, it won't hurt you. You've got about 2 ounces of well-matched vegetable proteins and an ounce of animal protein in the menu you posted, you're doing fine.

    SGT Rock, when you're on your thru, just listen to your body. It will tell you if you need to eat more salt or protein or whatever. For instance, I sometimes drank a half-gallon of chocolate milk like a glass of water as soon as I hit town. During the summer, I went from wanting anything sweet to eating everything salty. And consider a multivitamin if you haven't already.

  7. #87
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    I'm doing the multivitamin thing. I did some reading a while back on this when we had the topic of water purification and treatment up. This one study found that all things being equal (treatment methods, hygine, age, etc.) - folks that take a daily multivitamin had lower incidences of gastrointestinal illnesses.
    SGT Rock
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  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    I'm doing the multivitamin thing. I did some reading a while back on this when we had the topic of water purification and treatment up. This one study found that all things being equal (treatment methods, hygine, age, etc.) - folks that take a daily multivitamin had lower incidences of gastrointestinal illnesses.
    That's interesting but not surprising. Some of the micronutrients play crucial roles in cellular function. Some of the communication methods various cells of the body use to communicate with other organs or tissues are absolutely amazing.

    And this discussion reminded me, I forgot to take my monthly B12 shot yesterday. I have low levels and I'm nowhere near vegetarian!

    I think one reason thru-hikers like AYCE is not just the quantity, but the ability to choose what foods the body needs in the correct proportions.
    Last edited by Appalachian Tater; 11-02-2007 at 12:53.

  9. #89
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    MS, Johnny, Tater, you guys have been helpful. Thanks.
    SGT Rock
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    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
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    NO SNIVELING

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    MS, Johnny, Tater, you guys have been helpful. Thanks.
    Thank you as well. I didn't know that multi-vitamin/gastro-health connection. Makes a lot of sense.

    If you're already taking a vitamin you might want to look into Glucosamine. Every runner and hiker should be taking it.

  11. #91
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    I've heard about it. Don't know that much really.
    SGT Rock
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    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
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    NO SNIVELING

  12. #92

    Default Sgt. Rock, some important points on Calcium, a major deficiency for most hikers...

    1a) Your body CANNOT absorb all the Calcium you need for 24 hours from a single intake. That is, you could drink a half gallon of milk or take supplements that theoretically give you 200% of your Calcium RDA, but all at one time, and you'd still be running a deficit compared with your needs.

    So, try to drink milk more than once a day, or spread out any Calcium supplements you take.

    1b) Multivitamin/mineral pills do not contain significant Calcium; 10% of RDA is about typical, if memory serves. The reason is that Calcium compounds acceptable for ingestion are very bulky, and there's just not enough room in a multivit pill for enough Calcium. Expect to have to take at least two large pills that are solely Calcium supplements, if you are going to get the majority of your Calcium via supplements.

    2) It turns out that the traditional Orthodox Jewish prohibition against meat and milk at the same meal makes some sense. There is a ton of Phosphorus in animal products (other than milk, natch), and it seriously interferes with the human body absorbing Calcium, whether from milk or supplements, taken around the same time. So, at least once a day taking in a Calcium source with no meat a couple hours before and after is smart.

    3) Likewise, colas contain substantial phosphoric acid, which is a Phosphorus source, so perhaps staying away from brown soft drinks (most but not all of which contain phosphoric acid -- read the label!) at least part of the day the way I suggested with meat vs. Calcium sources would be wise.

    Frankly, colas are pointless and unwise to consume in any case, especially for females of any age, them being more vulnerable to osteoporosis than men are, with less-dense bones and less efficient Calcium-absorbing metabolisms (probably testosterone-related) than men do.

    4) There are other significant food Calcium sources besides milk, as good as it is. Here is an extensive list (originally from the Dept. of Agriculture) of many vegetables:

    http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html

    And, of foods in general:

    http://www.osteoporosis.ca/english/A...efault.asp?s=1

    Do remember that minerals in vegetables are not as available as in animal products, so I think that counting solely on vegetables for one's Calcium needs is unwise. Drink some milk often, and/or take supplements.

    I particularly think highly of dark blackstrap cane molasses and dark leafy greens, as they contain other worthwhile nutrients. Cane molasses is a major biotin (a sort of vitamin) source, while those greens have so much beta carotene (Vit. A precursor), Vit. C, and Vit K, that a human needs no other dietary sources of them.

    Getting Calcium via sardines or other bone-containing fish strikes me as poor strategy, as the Phosphorus they contain will interfere with absorbing the Calcium. I do eat sardines (cheap low-satfat source of protein and Omega-3 oils), but I don't consider them a Calcium source for me.

    5) Calcium balance in the body is also affected negatively by caffeine intake, excessive Vit A/beta carotene intake, and excessive protein consumption in general.

    6) I remember reading that about 90% of Caucasians that believe they are lactose-intolerant (so can't consume dairy products) are completely mistaken. So, odds are if you are white and think you can't drink milk, especially if Central/Western/Northern European, you're wrong.

    Asians (other than Subcontinent Indians) often do have problems with digesting dairy products as adults, as do some Mediterranean-origin people to a lesser degree, though.

    6) One more thing on milk: as the fat content of milk is decreased by skimming, going from full-fat milk to 2%, 1%, and finally skim milk, the content of the desirable constituents increases, i.e., there is more Calcium in an 8-ounce cup of skim milk than in full-fat milk. Thus, that's one more reason to go as low-fat on milk as possible.

    Incidentally, even 2% milk still does not qualify by FDA regs as a low-fat food, it still has so much fat in it. Buy only skim milk, and get used to it. Likewise, there are fat-free versions of sour cream, cottage cheese, cream cheese, yogurt, etc., widely available now. There's no need to buy the types that still have all the fat left in them, and like skim milk, they have more Calcium, etc., than do the full-fat versions.

    Note that if you're really broke, that powdered milk can cost under half as much as liquid milk, with no nutritional drawbacks. I normally use powdered milk in place of liquid for cold cereal (even at home, not just when hiking), in cooking, and for that rare cup of (sugar-free, natch) hot chocolate.

    The above is part of why I don't normally drink coffee, colas, much of any soft drinks, or undecaffeinated teas. I mainly buy tomato juice (no added salt if possible), fruit juices (no added sugar if possible), decaf green tea, distilled water, and skim milk.

  13. #93

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    You are a handy guy to have around MS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    Jack Lallane has lived most of his 93 years as a lacto-ovo (egg and milk) vegetarian and I believe he eats fish. He was preaching the importance of diet way back when morons like Jim Fixx were saying eat all the bacon cheesburgers you want, just go run. Fixx has been dead for over twenty years and Jack most likely swam for an hour this morning, after he lifted weights.
    Old Jack eats egg-whites and salmon. Heard him say: "People exceed the feed limit." "If you can't pronounce it, don't eat it." Clever.

  15. #95
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    Not something I had thought about until now. Looks like my diet only has about 500mg of calcium in it now.
    SGT Rock
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    I particularly think highly of dark blackstrap cane molasses and dark leafy greens, as they contain other worthwhile nutrients. Cane molasses is a major biotin (a sort of vitamin) source, while those greens have so much beta carotene (Vit. A precursor), Vit. C, and Vit K, that a human needs no other dietary sources of them.
    Well, I'm already getting the greens, but now I have an excuse to open up that jar of molasses.

  17. #97

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    You have to have vitamin D or you can eat calcium all done long and it doesn't do any good. That's why milk is fortified with it.

    Soy products like tofu are actually a more concentrated source of calcium than milk products are.

    Here's a good, concise calcium & vitamin D reference: http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile68e.stm

  18. #98

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    If you are outside for an hour or so in the sunlight, your skin will make enough Vitamin D. Vit D has also been shown to be an immune booster as well as being essential in maintaining lung tissue elasticity (you can breathe easier, and your lungs don't age as fast).

  19. #99

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    This has turned into a very informative thread with value for both on-trail and off-trail eating. Back on the protein issues: Speaking as one who has high chloresterol, I've cut down red meat and chicken for a few years and gone semi-vegetarian but based on what I'm reading, I see the benefits of animal sources for protein. It seems to me that after egg whites, the best overall source for protein is fish.

    Having said that, what are the tradeoffs of the environmental factors. Meaning: is lean, grass-fed, non-hormone injected beef or free-range poultry safer/healthier than fish subject to mercury or, like Eastern salmon, injected with artificial color?

    Another nutrtional subject: my local NPR station has a program Saturday mornings called The Peoples Pharmacy which discusses alternative medicine & treatments. A few months ago, one episode that I still remember well dealt with cherries and how healthy they are because of melatonin, a powerful antioxident. Two of many articles about cherries & melatonin are here and here. And while fresh cherries are only available in season, dried cherries pack a powerful dose; they're expensive but you only need a small handful to get the benefits. So now whether home or on the trail, my oatmeal includes dried cherries.

  20. #100

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    Cookerhiker, I also have moderately high cholesterol (220-230 or so) and I don't consider it a big deal. Cholesterol is only one of several risk factors for arterial disease. The number one risk factor is high blood pressure, that is what physically deposits the plaque in your arteries. Maintaining a normal blood pressure (120/80) is paramount, and cardio exercise is the best way to do this. You still need to be concerned about the types and amounts of fats you consume, but there is only so much reduction possible. I urge everyone to avoid all trans fats, if you look on a label and read the words "partially hydrogenated", put it back on the shelf. The stuff raises your bad cholesterol (LDL) and lowers the good (HDL). I believe some lean beef or even better, venison, is healthy, trim the fat, and cook out what is left. Red meat is the best source of iron to maintain proper hemoglobin, mine runs low normal (12-17gm/deciliter is the normal range for a male). Poultry or any light colored meat is a poorer source of iron. Not all need to be concerned with this, ask you doctor to review your physicals. Leafy dark greens are also a source and some people seem to be able to absorb the iron from them better than others. While you are at it, examine your white blood cell counts for several past physicals. The normal range is 5,000 to 10,000 gm/dl. If yours runs high normal, you may be at increased risk for heart disease, this correlates to the recently discovered CRP test for arterial inflamation. Smokers usually have a high normal count.

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