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  1. #181
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    Smith:

    Of course you have credibility. Maybe not a lot of tact, but credibility, yeah.

    All I'm saying is that your trip was a lot longer than most people's hikes, and that since most people don't have that much time to devote to their trip, they'll have to achieve a higher mile-per-day average than you did.

    This isn't meant in any way to criticize you or how you hiked; I'm merely pointing out that most folks are limited to 24 to 27 weeks and need to keep this in mind.

  2. #182
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    Jack, I developed as a hiker to the point that I could do a thruhike again ...
    Is it a thru hike if you don't start at one end and walk straight thru to the other?

    Or is it a disconected 2000 mile hike?

    Comes close though.

  3. #183

    Default That's long settled, Rickb...

    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    Is it a thru hike if you don't start at one end and walk straight thru to the other?

    Or is it a disconected 2000 mile hike?

    Comes close though.
    I walked every mile of the AT in one calendar year, doing my d*mndest to pass every white blaze. That's a generally considered a thruhike, by >99% of people. It's also what the ATC, and I, FWIW, consider a thruhike.
    =============================================
    Anyway, my earlier point keeps getting missed...

    I developed as a hiker during my hike, despite the age, weight, and fitness situation I started with, to the point that not only did I finish the AT, I got fit to the point that I (just doing the math by my routinely doing 13-mile-days in MAINE, with higher days in VT/MA/CT) became capable of thruing in an average or less length of time, were I to do it again. There are reasons for that, and I believe that my greater-than-average (among thruhikers) attention to nutrition was one of them.

  4. #184
    Registered User Frolicking Dinosaurs's Avatar
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    However you hike, the important thing is that you do hike. Some have more stringent time limits than others. I'm retired and it will probably take me years to hike the AT, but the important thing is that I get out there.

    Smitty makes a good point about nutrition. I've found that as I've gotten older I have to pay more attention to that in order to be able to hike. When I was a younger Dino, I could hoot with the owls and soar with the eagles fueled by Snicker Bars. Today I need something more substantial to be able to soar with the eagles - and hooting with the owls no longer interest me.

    A thank you to Jan LiteShoe for her contribution to this thread.

  5. #185
    Super Moderator Marta's Avatar
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    MS--You are perfectly correct in saying you have some credibility when you describe the techniques you used to finish YOUR hike. However, other people have also thru-hiked the AT using entirely different methods, including nutritional methods. Mags, for example, finished not only the AT, but has also done a bit more hiking since then. He ate entirely differently than you did. More horribly than that, there have even been vegetarians and vegans who eat lots of soy products, and still tear up the trail.

    My conclusion: There is no one diet that will guarantee a successful AT hike.

    Logical fallacy--saying that because you finished a hike doing such and such, doing that thing is essential for all hikers.
    Example--I, Baltimore Jack, completed XXX thru-hikes of the AT while smoking, therefore smoking is essential to being able to complete the AT.


    Extrapolation:
    1) It's okay to say "This is what worked for me."
    2) It's jerky to say "This worked for me and therefore you must do it, too. In fact, whatever I have done is much better than what you have done, and you're in denial of reality if you don't capitulate and confess the error of your ways."

    But now I'm starting to act like a jerk myself, so I'll shut up.
    If not NOW, then WHEN?

    ME>GA 2006
    http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=3277

    Instagram hiking photos: five.leafed.clover

  6. #186
    Registered User Frolicking Dinosaurs's Avatar
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    My Dearest Marta,

    I must ask you to refrain from interjecting the truth and popping fallacy bubbles. We will be unable to proceed with this discussion if you continue this practice.

    Sincerely,
    F. Dino


  7. #187
    Super Moderator Marta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    My Dearest Marta,

    I must ask you to refrain from interjecting the truth and popping fallacy bubbles. We will be unable to proceed with this discussion if you continue this practice.

    Sincerely,
    F. Dino

    Sorry.
    If not NOW, then WHEN?

    ME>GA 2006
    http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=3277

    Instagram hiking photos: five.leafed.clover

  8. #188
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    Well stated.

    Now, be careful where you park...

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyB View Post
    Re-read MS's last couple of posts: He mentioned the 1st author was female only b/c he couldn't remember her name. 2nd female author referenced only to defend himself. Just say'n.
    Google?

  10. #190
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    More horribly than that, there have even been vegetarians and vegans who eat lots of soy products, and still tear up the trail.

    Check out Scott Jurek. He's the Lance Armstrong of ultra running (minus the whole doping allegations. )..he won the Western States 100 mile seven years in a row. And is a vegan...

    Now..anyone want a burger and beer? (I know I do...)
    Paul "Mags" Magnanti
    http://pmags.com
    Twitter: @pmagsco
    Facebook: pmagsblog

    The true harvest of my life is intangible...a little stardust caught,a portion of the rainbow I have clutched -Thoreau

  11. #191

    Default Appalachian Tater...

    Quote Originally Posted by Appalachian Tater View Post
    Google?
    What are you asking here?

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Check out Scott Jurek. He's the Lance Armstrong of ultra running (minus the whole doping allegations. )..he won the Western States 100 mile seven years in a row. And is a vegan...

    Now..anyone want a burger and beer? (I know I do...)
    Jack LaLanne has been a near vegan (a little fish I think, and milk and eggs) longer than most people will live (he's 93) and he's maintained an impressive muscle mass.

  13. #193

    Default No doubt most Americans get too much protein...

    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    Jack LaLanne has been a near vegan (a little fish I think, and milk and eggs) longer than most people will live (he's 93) and he's maintained an impressive muscle mass.
    Not getting enough (that's fully usable) is not ideal, either. That's why I advocate protein complementation with plant products as much as possible, which is considerably easier with just a little meat or milk eaten at the same meal.

  14. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    Not getting enough (that's fully usable) is not ideal, either. That's why I advocate protein complementation with plant products as much as possible, which is considerably easier with just a little meat or milk eaten at the same meal.
    Oh I agree with you MS, I don't think the average american gets enough protein, or at least not enough to support an active lifestyle. I believe this contributes to a lot of failed "get-in-shape" programs and failed thru-hikes. The rice and beans, bread and milk thing is a much healthier way to go as you say. I don't see any harm in 2-4oz of lean meat per meal either, or a three-egg omlet with two yolks discarded.

  15. #195

    Default Agreed again in part, TAK...

    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    The rice and beans, bread and milk thing is a much healthier way to go as you say. I don't see any harm in 2-4oz of lean meat per meal either, or a three-egg omlet with two yolks discarded.
    Definitely. Do make it brown rice and skim (potentially including powdered) milk as much as possible. (Sadly, the desirable unsat oils in the hulls of brown rice are subject to oxidation and resulting undesirable rancidity much more so than polished, or white, rice, so brown does not keep nearly as long as white.)

    Too, I find a mixture solely of egg whites and skim milk makes a perfectly acceptable batter for French toast (whole-grain bread only, of course). Recipes calling for whole eggs such as baked goods can generally be altered with no effect on the finished product by adding just the white, along with a bit of a (non-soybean) cooking oil.

    Re protein intake in general, though...

    When I consider how much protein is in an average-sized steak some typical guy's wolfing down on Friday night at Outback (along with a baked potato drowning in butter and full-fat sour cream, a sugary soft drink or booze, and no non-lettuce vegetables), or even in 3 hamburgers (likely with greasy salted potato fries, a sugary soft drink or sugary fatty milkshake, and no vegetables beyond lettuce/pickle/tomato at best), it's hard to conclude that insufficient protein is that guy's main nutritional issue.

    Potatos are effectively refined starches, even if you dig up a raw whole in a farmer's field one and start chowing. This is due to them being essentially fiber-free, the fiber in whole grains such as wheat, rye, and oats slowing down the conversion of starch to sugar. This latter desirably limits the body overreacting with a flood of insulin, which enough times over long enough predisposes the body to diabetes. That is my rationale for limiting all potato products, as effectively NONE of them are whole-grain.

    Thruhikers, sure, I think many of them skimp on protein while actually on the Trail, hoping to make it up during town stops. (Not much protein in beer, smoked tobacco, or reefers, though...)

    I still believe that thruhikers' most common and most serious nutritional deficiencies on average are:

    1) Calcium

    2) The vitamins contained in dark green leafy vegetables (C and K especially)

    3) Biologic-origin B-complex vitamins (wheat germ, brewer's yeast, and to a lesser extent, many whole grains being excellent sources of these)

    4) Grossly excessive levels of refined starches (e.g., any white flour, including macaroni/pasta noodles, white bread, instant white rice) and simple sugars

    5) Insufficient dietary fiber, both soluble and insoluble.

    6) For those not taking (good-quality) mineral supplements, microminerals in absorbable form

    7) Episodic alcohol abuse (booze depletes bodily vitamins, just as many soy products, undercooked beans and peas, and large amounts of added simple sugars do)

    ==============================================

    An aside on yeast supplements: while yeast contains high concentrations of multiple nutrients, especially B-complex vitamins, it is unwise to consume high levels of it over long periods. This is due to the very high levels of nucleic acids in yeast, multiples of that contained in meat. This can cause chronic symptoms of gout-like illness, just as Medieval kings existing almost solely on a diet of meat and possibly alcohol or sweets were widely subject to.

    ======================================

    Some more thoughts on vitamins: there are fundamentally two types nutritionally. There are oil-soluble vitamins, which the body can store for considerable times, but which potentially can be taken in excess to the point that actual illness results. These are A and D. Water-soluble vitamins (B-complex and C) have to be replenished more often, but are far less likely, even when consumed at astronomic levels, to cause serious harm, the excess above bodily needs simply being excreted. The saying is that Americans have the most expensive urine in the world...

    There is some evidence that synthetic C (especially the lower-quality stuff from places like China) can at high levels inflict some urinary-tract irritation. This is apparently not the case for biologic-origin C, so chow down on all the oranges and leafy greens you want. Note that C is VERY easily damaged by heat, arguably more so than just about any other vitamin, so dried fruits and vegetables (not so for freeze-dried) and orange and other fruit juices made up from concentrates may have major losses compared to fresh sources.

    E is technically an oil-soluble vitamin, but seems to be an exception to the guideline that OSs taken in gross excess have a fair probability of causing harm (A is the worst for this). Of course, E is most commonly extracted from wheat germ, so is biologic-origin, rather than largely synthesized as are most other vitamins, so this may be part of the reason there's no significant vitamin-excess-risk for hitting the E caplets or wheat germs heavily.

  16. #196

    Default Agreed again in part, TAK...

    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    The rice and beans, bread and milk thing is a much healthier way to go as you say. I don't see any harm in 2-4oz of lean meat per meal either, or a three-egg omlet with two yolks discarded.
    Definitely. Do make it brown rice and skim (potentially including powdered) milk as much as possible. (Sadly, the desirable unsat oils in the hulls of brown rice are subject to oxidation and resulting undesirable rancidity much more so than polished, or white, rice, so brown does not keep nearly as long as white.)

    Too, I find a mixture solely of egg whites and skim milk makes a perfectly acceptable batter for French toast (whole-grain bread only, of course). Recipes calling for whole eggs such as baked goods can generally be altered with no effect on the finished product by adding just the white, along with a bit of a (non-soybean) cooking oil.

    Re protein intake in general, though...

    When I consider how much protein is in an average-sized steak some typical guy's wolfing down on Friday night at Outback (along with a baked potato drowning in butter and full-fat sour cream, a sugary soft drink or booze, and no non-lettuce vegetables), or even in 3 hamburgers (likely with greasy salted potato fries, a sugary soft drink or sugary fatty milkshake, and no vegetables beyond lettuce/pickle/tomato at best), it's hard to conclude that insufficient protein is that guy's main nutritional issue.

    Potatos are effectively refined starches, even if you dig up a raw whole in a farmer's field one and start chowing. This is due to them being essentially fiber-free, the fiber in whole grains such as wheat, rye, and oats slowing down the conversion of starch to sugar. This latter desirably limits the body overreacting with a flood of insulin, which enough times over long enough predisposes the body to diabetes. That is my rationale for limiting all potato products, as effectively NONE of them are whole-grain.

    Thruhikers, sure, I think many of them skimp on protein while actually on the Trail, hoping to make it up during town stops. (Not much protein in beer, smoked tobacco, or reefers, though...)

    I still believe that thruhikers' most common and most serious nutritional deficiencies on average are:

    1) Calcium

    2) The vitamins contained in dark green leafy vegetables (C and K especially)

    3) Biologic-origin B-complex vitamins (wheat germ, brewer's yeast, and to a lesser extent, many whole grains being excellent sources of these)

    4) Grossly excessive levels of refined starches (e.g., any white flour, including macaroni/pasta noodles, white bread, instant white rice) and simple sugars

    5) Insufficient dietary fiber, both soluble and insoluble.

    6) For those not taking (good-quality) mineral supplements, microminerals in absorbable form

    7) Episodic alcohol abuse (booze depletes bodily vitamins, just as many soy products, undercooked beans and peas, and large amounts of added simple sugars do)

    ==============================================

    An aside on yeast supplements: while yeast contains high concentrations of multiple nutrients, especially B-complex vitamins, it is unwise to consume high levels of it over long periods. This is due to the very high levels of nucleic acids in yeast, multiples of that contained in meat. This can cause chronic symptoms of gout-like illness, just as Medieval kings existing almost solely on a diet of meat and possibly alcohol or sweets were widely subject to.

    ======================================

    Some more thoughts on vitamins: there are fundamentally two types nutritionally. There are oil-soluble vitamins, which the body can store for considerable times, but which potentially can be taken in excess to the point that actual illness results. These are A and D. Water-soluble vitamins (B-complex and C) have to be replenished more often, but are far less likely, even when consumed at astronomic levels, to cause serious harm, the excess above bodily needs simply being excreted. The saying is that Americans have the most expensive urine in the world...

    There is some evidence that synthetic C (especially the lower-quality stuff from places like China) can at high levels inflict some urinary-tract irritation. This is apparently not the case for biologic-origin C, so chow down on all the oranges and leafy greens you want. Note that C is VERY easily damaged by heat, arguably more so than just about any other vitamin, so dried fruits and vegetables (not so for freeze-dried) and orange and other fruit juices made up from concentrates may have major losses compared to fresh sources.

    E is technically an oil-soluble vitamin, but seems to be an exception to the guideline that OSs taken in gross excess have a fair probability of causing harm (A is the worst for this). Of course, E is most commonly extracted from wheat germ, so supplements of it are usually biologic-origin, rather than largely synthesized as are most other vitamins in supplements, so this may be part of the reason there's no significant vitamin-excess-risk for hitting the E caplets or wheat germs heavily.

  17. #197

    Default

    MS, that is an interesting point about a thru hiker's diet being defecient in Vit C, that nutrient is essential in collagen formation (a protein), and collagen makes up about 25% of bone mass. I think about 25% of bone is calcium. Calcium is also essential for muscle contraction, like carrying a heavy pack uphill.

    So, if your diet is deficient in calcium, protein, and Vit C (and who knows what else) this appears to be a sure fire recipe for a weakened bone structure (stress fracture). Tendons and ligaments have an even higher percentage of collagen in their structure.

    You should INCREASE your bone mass from a long-distance hike, but this can't happen without the proper building blocks.

  18. #198

    Default Moderators...

    Could one of you delete my duplicate post above?

    Thanks!

  19. #199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by minnesotasmith View Post
    Could one of you delete my duplicate post above?

    Thanks!
    If you donated $10, you could fix your own mistakes. You couldn't completely delete your post, but you could reduce its generous bulk down to ten characters.

    You might also consider a PM to a mod rather than a post asking for another post to be deleted, which merely compounds the problem of unneccessary, meaningless posts.
    Last edited by Appalachian Tater; 12-10-2007 at 11:44.

  20. #200
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    I agree with much of what Minnasota Smith says about diet. However, I don't think any paleolithic man in his right mind would toss out the yokes from his eggs.

    Neither would I.

    Especially if I carried them for two days.

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