Going Off-Leash ...

[Bootstrap]

I would love to take my dog with me when I run through the woods or hike or go backpacking.

But off-leash, she runs away. She's young and obedient enough to train, but I'm reluctant to let her get away too often while training her to go off-leash.

How should I train her?

Jonathan

[warraghiyagey]

Not sure how you should train her but if she has any territoriality in her she should be on a leash when around others. If you're camped for the night and allthe others who may be around are comfortable with her then you could take her off.
It's a tall order to train a dog not to run off at something that interests them in the woods. The only dogs I've ever seen were aware of one word from their human that they understand as not negotiable. Choose your word and take her with a long leash. Train her with this word while on her leash until she stays every time yo use it. Then cautiously use this system with her unleashed and react with the leash accordingly to her response.

[ChinMusic]

I had very good luck with Dogtra http://www.dogtra.com/ .

If you go this route I would suggest getting it from a training school and get a few lessons in the beginning. I can stop my dog anytime I wish with just the touch of a button. It is for his safety and the respect of others. After awhile, after incorporating voice commands into the training, you will find that you rarely have to correct with the button.

This allows me to have both my hands on trekking poles and increases MY safety as well.

[J5man]

Touch base with Phreak. He is an expert on both topics.

www.hikes247.com

[Uncle Silly]

But off-leash, she runs away. She's young and obedient enough to train, but I'm reluctant to let her get away too often while training her to go off-leash.

It's not the running away that should concern you, it's how long she's gone. What is her behavior as far as coming back? When she runs off, do you have to go after her, or will she return to you in a matter of minutes? or hours?

Personally I don't like the idea of a shock collar. If I were confident that she'd come back (say, within an hour or so), I'd take her on some shakedown hikes, to somewhere she'll have room to roam. Keep her on-leash until you get to a campsite and setup. Then let her off-leash, and play with her to keep her occupied and close. When she runs off to investigate or whatever, let her go for fifteen minutes or so, then call her back. If she doesn't come immediately don't panic -- just keep calling for her every fifteen minutes or so. If she's like my dog she'll get bored and come back before too long. The risk is that she'll stay gone all night and you'll have to go searching for her in the morning. That's why you should be confident that she'll come back to you before trying this, and you have to be confident that you can find her the next morning if she decides to spend the night somewhere other than your camp.

[Bootstrap]

I had very good luck with Dogtra http://www.dogtra.com/ .

I may look into that, but I'm wondering if simple training can do the trick.

This allows me to have both my hands on trekking poles and increases MY safety as well.

FWIW, if your dog doesn't pull hard (a habit I've broken her of), it's easy enough to throw a loop around the dog's neck and tie the other end of the line to my waist belt or a chalk bag belt around my waist. I often run with her this way, and it's much easier to stay balanced if I don't have to deal with a leash in my hands.

Jonathan

[Uncle Silly]

FWIW, if your dog doesn't pull hard (a habit I've broken her of), it's easy enough to throw a loop around the dog's neck and tie the other end of the line to my waist belt or a chalk bag belt around my waist. I often run with her this way, and it's much easier to stay balanced if I don't have to deal with a leash in my hands.

Hikers with dogs that can't be allowed off-leash use this trick quite a bit. They'll attach the person-end of the leash to their hip belt or some other handy point on their pack. My buddy Sideshow in '05 kept his husky leashed like that.

[Bootstrap]

Hikers with dogs that can't be allowed off-leash use this trick quite a bit. They'll attach the person-end of the leash to their hip belt or some other handy point on their pack. My buddy Sideshow in '05 kept his husky leashed like that.

Yeah, it works. But it would be so much nicer for her to be able to go free ... if I could trust her. By my standards she'd have to be really, really obedient off-leash.

Jonathan

[leeki pole]

How old is your dog? Most breeds don't reach maturity until 2 or 3 years old. A puppy or adolescent dog is much more likely to roam and ignore commands.

Personally, I wouldn't even try to go off leash until you are fully confident of your dog's obedience. I trained my Labrador on a long lead for three years before I let him go off lead. He responds to a few simple commands; voice (sit, come) if he's close by or if he's in the field:
one whistle, stop and sit. Two whistles, come. And arm signals; left, right, go and "form on me" (pump arm up and down). Even then, around a shelter I'd sure put a leash on him as a courtesy to other hikers. The arm commands are mainly for retreiving work, but they work well for basic obedience also. As far as training, it's just between you and your dog. Be prepared to spend a lot of time and effort, but it's well worth it. Good luck!

[Gaiter]

my dog was a rescue that came nearly fully trained & grown, and works better off leash (edit: which i can't take credit for), but in what i guess you could call 'maintenance training', i work with her on and off leash in an area she can't run off, like in the backyard. maybe start working slowly but steadily with your dog in an enclosed area on and off leash,
i've mentioned this command before on dog threads, but the best command i taught my dog was 'stayback' she walks behind me, or beside if the trail is wide enough, the best thing about it is that it is a very submissive position, even as a dog groomer, i like to get the upper hand and put the dog in a submissive position to start with

just like humans all dogs learn differently, it will take time and patience, keep it simple but it will take time.

[Uncle Silly]

How old is your dog? Most breeds don't reach maturity until 2 or 3 years old. A puppy or adolescent dog is much more likely to roam and ignore commands.

Excellent point. I can tell you there was a great deal of difference in how much my dog roamed on the trail between '05 (2 years old) and '07 (4 years old). She stayed with me more while we hiked, and wasn't gone as long when she did wander off during break stops or from camp.

[icemanat95]

I hate to see dogs hiking off leash. They get into a lot of trouble.

Some things to consider:

Water sources: would you want to drink water from a stream that a dog just urinated in, or urinated or defecated on the banks upstream? Probably not.

Dogs off lead sometimes get into trouble with local wildlife and then b ring the problem back to you.

Dogs off lead tend to shed dog packs in the woods, never to be found again.

Like it or not, dogs have been domesticated for thousands upon thousands of years. They are just as much strangers in the woods as we are and while they have certain adaptations (like better senses of smell and fur coats) to deal with some survival challenges, they are still relative city slickers and not really part of the natural world.

[Appalachian Tater]

On my thru-hike I saw at least five totally lost dogs out in the woods that I can remember off-hand. You are taking a chance at never seeing your dog again.

[ChinMusic]

I may look into that, but I'm wondering if simple training can do the trick.

Jonathan

Diff dogs will need diff amounts of training. I can tell you that I can take my dog across a busy street, next to a park full of squirrels, and keep him at my side without a leash. Even with that control I keep him on a leash while walking on our local bike trail. The weak link is ME. I will be listening to music and not hear a bike coming up behind me.

I allow him to wonder maybe 30 feet from me on a hiking trail if no other hikers are around. He knows not to break that distance or a correction is coming. When others are near, I call him close to me until I find out if the other hiker(s) are OK with dogs. At this point corrections are not needed that often and he has backpacked 100s of mile with me. About the only wildlife I fear for him is the rattlesnake. But a snake could get him at 30 feet or at my feet on a leash. Life is not without risk.

That said, I would NOT take him on a thru-hike no matter how well-mannered he is.

[Bootstrap]

How old is your dog?

I'm guessing between 3 and 4. And maybe it's time to just try this training again, it wasn't working when she was younger, that may be a maturity thing.

Jonathan

[gsingjane]

Talk to LIHikers about dog training/hiking. His is the only dog I've ever seen that was completely trail-ready and obedient.

I know people like to let their dogs run and play in the woods. It must seem cruel not to let them have fun in the outdoors. I appreciate it that many hikers restrain their off-leash dogs when they see other hikers; however, you won't always see those other hikers coming, and it seems to be the natural instinct of many dogs to jump out or dash at creatures they encounter in the woods.

In particular, at least once a year we have an encounter with an off-leash dog when we are hiking with our youngest daughter (now 9, trailname Skippy). She is quite short and slight, and I think many dogs mistake her for another animal. Every single year since she's been 4, we've had at least one dog leap out of the bushes or run at her on the trail, and it is a very, very scary experience for a little child.

I have been flamed for making this comment before, because it seems that many dog owners feel that their dogs' rights are equivalent to, or perhaps in some cases exceed, those of humans on the trail. It also seems that people feel that a child might "provoke" a dog into jumping at him or her. Maybe in some cases this is true (some naughty kids do tease or provoke dogs); however, in our experience, the dog has always suddenly leapt out and pounced on our daughter and it is hard to see how she could have been encouraging or in another way deserves this. It is particularly unsettling when this happens when it is getting close to dusk, and nerves are on edge anyway.

I really just post this so you will think (as you seem to be doing) about the impact of your dog on all trail users. And, do speak to LIHikers. He has worked magic with their dog.

Jane in CT

[shelterbuilder]

...In particular, at least once a year we have an encounter with an off-leash dog when we are hiking with our youngest daughter (now 9, trailname Skippy). She is quite short and slight, and I think many dogs mistake her for another animal. Every single year since she's been 4, we've had at least one dog leap out of the bushes or run at her on the trail, and it is a very, very scary experience for a little child...It also seems that people feel that a child might "provoke" a dog into jumping at him or her. Maybe in some cases this is true (some naughty kids do tease or provoke dogs); however, in our experience, the dog has always suddenly leapt out and pounced on our daughter and it is hard to see how she could have been encouraging or in another way deserves this. It is particularly unsettling when this happens when it is getting close to dusk, and nerves are on edge anyway.

Jane in CT

Jane, PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, because I know that there are few things more terrifying to a small child than being "pounced" by an animal.

Is your daughter afraid of dogs (or afraid of being jumped on by dogs)? All dogs can sense this, and in some (not all) dogs, sensing this is sometimes enough to trigger a "dominance" response, even in dogs who are not normally "aggressive" animals. (And yes, they will tend to go after the smallest member of the group - in this case, your daughter.) No, I am not trying to put the "blame" onto your daughter - if she is fearful, she cannot control this any more than the dog can control the instinct to "pounce". And many times, the instinct is tied less to aggression and more to dominance/submission within the dog's social-structure instincts. (Sometimes, the packs on our backs make us look like "monsters" to some animals - some dogs and most horses fall into this catagory.)

Your daughter may be helped by two things. First, if she is fearful of dogs/dog encounters, she needs to be helped to overcome this (this is not always easy). Secondly, she needs to know that, if she doesn't want a dog's "attentions", it is alright for her to physically fend off the animal - a hiking stick, held vertically and waved side-to-side between her and the animal's head will sometimes work to stop the dog. (If not, a bop on the side of the snout can very often bring a dog up short!) She needn't hurt the dog, just get its attention in a way that says to the dog - "hey, you don't belong here!" If the dog is only curious and not aggressive, she could hold her hands out in front of her and say "no" or "down" in a firm tone.

I don't like coming around the bend in a trail and finding a loose dog either - especially when I'm hiking with one of my dogs (who is always on a leash). I sometimes handle things a bit differently, but I'm bigger than your daughter, and I'm not afraid of getting bit (been there, done that).

[gsingjane]

Hi, thanks for your comments and I'm not taking them the wrong way... you are certainly right that after several of these encounters, Skippy is definitely afraid of dogs on the trail (and, now, dogs not on the trail). My question is, what should she or we do about dogs that suddenly leap out of the bushes or underbrush at the side of the trail, or that come racing around a corner and then jump? I don't think a dog would necessarily sense her fear from that distance or location, would that be right? I mean it isn't like she sees it and screams and runs away and then it pounces, it's more like it jumps on top of her as a total surprise. Your suggestion for her to hike with a stick, and instructions that she can use it against a dog if necessary, is interesting. I'm not sure if it would increase her anxiety or perhaps make her feel more comfortable. Next time we go out she can try it and see.

I also hope that others who read this, who are interested in hiking with dogs, will know a little bit about the downside of letting them run off-leash. As I say, I am sure it is very tempting to do it and I, too, would like to see my pet having fun in the outdoors. Dog owners are always very apologetic when their dogs have jumped on Skippy and she's crying or screaming, but I guess they must just figure it doesn't happen often enough to warrant using the leash, I don't know.

Jane in CT

[shelterbuilder]

...Skippy is definitely afraid of dogs on the trail (and, now, dogs not on the trail). My question is, what should she or we do about dogs that suddenly leap out of the bushes or underbrush at the side of the trail, or that come racing around a corner and then jump? I don't think a dog would necessarily sense her fear from that distance or location, would that be right? I mean it isn't like she sees it and screams and runs away and then it pounces, it's more like it jumps on top of her as a total surprise. Your suggestion for her to hike with a stick, and instructions that she can use it against a dog if necessary, is interesting. I'm not sure if it would increase her anxiety or perhaps make her feel more comfortable. Next time we go out she can try it and see.

I also hope that others who read this, who are interested in hiking with dogs, will know a little bit about the downside of letting them run off-leash. As I say, I am sure it is very tempting to do it and I, too, would like to see my pet having fun in the outdoors. Dog owners are always very apologetic when their dogs have jumped on Skippy and she's crying or screaming, but I guess they must just figure it doesn't happen often enough to warrant using the leash, I don't know.

Jane in CT

Because they communicate through the spoken word, people tend to forget that body language is also an effective way of "talking". Animals use body language much more than we do, and they can interpret human body laguage as well. I suspect that your daughter is using body language unconsiously to communicate her fear/uneasiness to the dogs in question. She may freeze, she may stiffen up, she may hunch over a bit, her facial expression may change slightly. She doesn't have to say a word - between body laguage and the fact that "fear has a smell all its own", I'm sure that the dog gets the message instantly! (By the way, running is probably the worst thing that she could do - running triggers an instinctual "chase" response in most dogs, and there's no way that she could ever outrun a dog.)

If it's possible, when you go to a mall where there's a pet shop with dogs on display through a glass window, walk her past the window, slowly, and comment on how cute the dogs look, how cuddly they appear. DON'T tell her that she shouldn't be afraid of them, just look from a safe distance and notice all of the non-threatening things about them. Funny things, too - long stringy fur, no fur, funny expressions, funny contorted positions, etc...cute, funny, silly stuff. When she can handle this well, take her to the exercise pen in the pet store and let her LOOK at the dogs from a comfortable distance, again commenting on the funny stuff, the cute stuff, the silly stuff. No touching at this point (because puppies love to chew and their teeth are like little needles). When she can handle this, let her try petting them, but warn her that puppies are like little children - everything goes in the mouth, but they mean no harm. By gradually exposing her to more and more "dog encounters" in a very controlled way, she may be able to overcome her fear of dogs. If there is a "mishap" at one level of exposure, drop back to the previous level for a while, then try to move up again.

As for what to do when you're out on the trail, the only suggestion that I have is to have her walk between two other larger people - don't let her get out in front because that's the person who's most likely to find the loose dog first. But don't tell her that this is the reason she's in the middle. That could serve to reinforce the notion of being fearful.

I tend to be a bit aggressive when I encounter a loose dog, and sometimes the owner is not too pleased, but I tend to try to think like a dog when I have to interact with dogs, and a strong, firm posture helps to reinforce the dog's idea of MY dominance over it. Without hurting the dog, I leave no room for the dog to wonder about it!

[mudhead]

Agree with Shelterbuilder. I also have zero fuse with jumpers. Or aggressive animals, maybe less than zero.

Find a mild mannered dog/owner. Closed fist sniff. Let the dog lick her fist. She may giggle.

Not trying to rile you, but how does a dog approach your child without you interceeding? Vibram soles make excellent shields.

Teach her to baton twirl, you learn too. Hike with a staff. Both of you.