Going Off-Leash ...

[Bootstrap]

No. The statement was common sense.

I think it's pretty clear, on this thread, that we have (at least) two strongly held and contradictory versions of common sense. If both sides get more emphatic about their version of common sense, that won't help us communicate. (And yes, we've had the same emphatic statements for other points of view, I'm not trying to pick on you.)

I'd like to explore a little more. It makes sense to me that dog owners should be very careful that their dogs don't scare people. To me, one requirement for a dog to go off-leash is that it doesn't approach other people without its owner's permission. I would only give that permission if I had reason to believe it is OK with the other person.

Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?

Jonathan

[Appalachian Tater]

I think it's pretty clear, on this thread, that we have (at least) two strongly held and contradictory versions of common sense. If both sides get more emphatic about their version of common sense, that won't help us communicate. (And yes, we've had the same emphatic statements for other points of view, I'm not trying to pick on you.)

I'd like to explore a little more. It makes sense to me that dog owners should be very careful that their dogs don't scare people. To me, one requirement for a dog to go off-leash is that it doesn't approach other people without its owner's permission. I would only give that permission if I had reason to believe it is OK with the other person.

Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?

Jonathan

Jonathan, other people don't know anything about your dog. Remember, hikers have already encountered plenty of dogs with bad owners. Without exception, the well-behaved dogs were leashed before I saw them or got within hollering distance.

Why is it so important for your dog to run free in the woods? It can only get in trouble. You have no right to impose on other people that way. The fact that you're even having this conversation leads me to believe that you're a good dog owner and that you will protect your dog by keeping it leashed.

I saw too many lost dogs in the woods, including one in Maine that had hiked from Georgia. He was fortunately only lost about 24 hours. Besides the pain and anguish on the part of the owner, he was on a tight schedule to finish his hike at that point. Most of the dogs I saw that had been lost were painfully thin and very hungry. They were pitiful. If they had been in someone's control, that person could have been charged with cruelty to animals.

[leeki pole]

I think it's pretty clear, on this thread, that we have (at least) two strongly held and contradictory versions of common sense. If both sides get more emphatic about their version of common sense, that won't help us communicate. (And yes, we've had the same emphatic statements for other points of view, I'm not trying to pick on you.)

I'd like to explore a little more. It makes sense to me that dog owners should be very careful that their dogs don't scare people. To me, one requirement for a dog to go off-leash is that it doesn't approach other people without its owner's permission. I would only give that permission if I had reason to believe it is OK with the other person.

Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?

Jonathan

Good point, Jonathan. Yes, if you could guarantee that your dog would sit/stay on command and come to you, only to you, that would be fine with me. I never approach someone else's dog or pet her without permission from their human. If my dog showed any interest in or even approached another person, other than someone he was familiar with (say, family) I would leash him without hesitation.

But there are great, well-behaved dogs out there who are totally disinterested in other people. This can only come about with thorough training and discipline. The real wild card in the deck is if another dog shows up and that's when all bets can be off, no matter the level of training. Dogs are very social animals and their instinct is to "check out" the other dog. I could see where leashing could be helpful in this situation. You can't know how well trained the other dog is.

I know I'm probably waffling a bit here, but as long as you know you're in a remote area where the probability of human or canine contact is low, and you're confident in your training, I wouldn't have a problem with going off-lead. If you would expect to see other people or dogs, as a courtesy to other hikers and the safety of your dog, I'd put her on lead.
Keith

[FatMan]

Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?

I won't speak directly for him, but there are many AT "Captains of the World" whom it would not be enough.

Bootstrap, here is my experience with a dog on the trail. And I am constantly on trails, mostly the AT now as my new house sits about 250 yds away.

First, my dog and I do not stay in shelters. I understand that some hikers simply do not like dogs, so we do not stay as a courtesy to them. There is a huge difference between crossing paths on the trail and staying in a confined area for 12 hours. But, not staying at shelters is easy for us because I find many hikers to be more out of control than many dogs so I don't overnight at shelters even when I hike alone. We do often lunch at shelters so we do not avoid them completely.

Second, my dog is trained to stop in his tracks as soon as he sees oncoming hikers. If I see the oncoming hikers first, a simple "Wait" command stops him in his tracks as well. At that time I have him sit directly next to me at the side of the trail and allow the oncoming hikers to go by. I have never had anyone suggest he should be leashed because the fact is most hikers probably believe he is leashed. I estimate that 80% of the hikers will say in passing something regarding how well behaved he is and about 60% of those will stop and ask about him and ask if it is OK to pet him. If a child is in the group I always let an adult know my dog is friendly and ask permission before allowing the child pet my dog.

Third, taking the other side of the discussion there some dogs who are not under control on the trail. My experience is that most of the problem dogs are local and do not belong to hikers, but out of control hiker owned dogs certainly do exist. I don't like dogs charging at me any more than anyone else. It creates an uncomfortable situation as I first have to take action to protect my dog (usually the primary target), and then decide what action I should take to protect myself if necessary.

So, I do have an understanding of why some have the feelings about dogs on the trail they have. And I also know that conducting a cyber argument on the topic is futile. Each dog is different, just as each hiker is different. If you train your dog well, have complete control over its behavior you will find people will have no problem with you and your off leash dog on the trail. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if your dog wanders out of sight or your dog approaches others without your consent you should keep your dog leashed. And dogs and shelters don't mix. Staying at a shelter with fido is only asking for trouble IMO.

[Appalachian Tater]

And dogs and shelters don't mix. Staying at a shelter with fido is only asking for trouble IMO.

There were a couple of well-behaved thru-hiker dogs whose owners camped at (not in) shelters and let their dogs off leash. It wasn't a problem because everybody knew the dogs and the dogs did not wander out of the owners' sight. But when you encounter a dog on the trail and you don't know it, even one sitting by its owner is problemmatic because dogs can be fine until you pass by and then they growl and snap.

Oh, and don't forget the really bad owners tell you their dog is safe. (Good owners don't need to.) When I hear someone saying, "Oh, don't worry....." or "He's fine...." I interrupt them with "Would you please leash your dog?"

[thestin]

There are many areas where local, state or federal laws REQUIRE that a dog be leashed. Dog owners that let their dogs off leash in those areas are deciding the rules don't apply to them or their dogs.

When I'm hiking and encounter an unleashed dog, I have no idea if the dog is friendly or not. There have been many times where the dog has run well ahead of it's owner. At this point, I have no idea if the dog is lost, rabid, unfriendly or simply walking ahead of its owner.

[Phreak]

Oh, and don't forget the really bad owners tell you their dog is safe. (Good owners don't need to.) When I hear someone saying, "Oh, don't worry....." or "He's fine...." I interrupt them with "Would you please leash your dog?"

Excellent point Tater.

And I have never hesitated to leash my dogs if someone asked me to do so. I ran across a lady coming up Tray Mountain who is absolutely terrified of dogs. As soon as she told me this, I leashed both dogs and moved 20 or so paces off the trail so she could pass without worry.

[ChinMusic]

I have had trick-or-treaters FREEZE at my doorway at the sight of this:

[leeki pole]

There were a couple of well-behaved thru-hiker dogs whose owners camped at (not in) shelters and let their dogs off leash. It wasn't a problem because everybody knew the dogs and the dogs did not wander out of the owners' sight. But when you encounter a dog on the trail and you don't know it, even one sitting by its owner is problemmatic because dogs can be fine until you pass by and then they growl and snap.

Oh, and don't forget the really bad owners tell you their dog is safe. (Good owners don't need to.) When I hear someone saying, "Oh, don't worry....." or "He's fine...." I interrupt them with "Would you please leash your dog?"

Good post, Tater. I wonder if sometimes the hiking poles and backpack of passing hikers sometimes create stress in a dog, making them feel threatened. In a relaxed setting, say at a shelter just sitting around eating dinner, there's not much stress. But a hiker clacking up the trail looking much bigger than a normal human due to the pack and weapons (i.e., poles) could trigger a defense mechanism in a dog. Some breeds and dogs could definitely "flip out" due to the breeding of defense, not just themselves but their human partner. You're coming directly at them, creating a confrontational situation. I see your point.

[Appalachian Tater]

I have had trick-or-treaters FREEZE at my doorway at the sight of this:

Looks like that damn dog my aunt had that used to bite my ankles.

Good post, Tater. I wonder if sometimes the hiking poles and backpack of passing hikers sometimes create stress in a dog, making them feel threatened. In a relaxed setting, say at a shelter just sitting around eating dinner, there's not much stress. But a hiker clacking up the trail looking much bigger than a normal human due to the pack and weapons (i.e., poles) could trigger a defense mechanism in a dog. Some breeds and dogs could definitely "flip out" due to the breeding of defense, not just themselves but their human partner. You're coming directly at them, creating a confrontational situation. I see your point.

Many dog owners on the trail have told me this. Apparently even a well-behaved dog will defend its master from threats without asking for permission first. I guess thousands of years of domestication will do stuff like that.

[SGT Rock]

I think part of the issue for some dogs too is defining their space. When in an outdoor setting where you are moving regularly dogs that are accustomed to having a defined territory can become territorial where they shouldn't as they try to figure out where their "space" is. They go into defend mode on trails seeing strangers or other inappropriate times.

I have seen this in pets people bring on the trail, but I haven't seen it in hunting dogs or in dogs that spend a great deal of time on trails like Tipi Walter's dog or Mala's dog. It leads me to think dogs that are use to roaming are less likely to have these sorts of issues.

[mudhead]

Excellent point Tater.

And I have never hesitated to leash my dogs if someone asked me to do so. I ran across a lady coming up Tray Mountain who is absolutely terrified of dogs. As soon as she told me this, I leashed both dogs and moved 20 or so paces off the trail so she could pass without worry.

You are the exception to my experience.

[ChinMusic]

Looks like that damn dog my aunt had that used to bite my ankles.

From your postings I figured as much......

[YeOldeBackpacker]

I have always believed that if you are taking your dog in a public area it should be kept on its leash.
I am not afraid of dogs I own a few, and I do run into dogs all the time at trail heads and on the trail, but this past weekend was a first for me. I was walking up to a shelter area, and had a lab mix come bolting out, jumped up and bit my hand, it started to do the shake and tear thing when the owner pulled if off me, I didn't move, didn't yell, didn't try to run, didn't strike the dog because the owner now had him in a head lock until he got a leash on it. The owner said he has never done it before, He doesn't know what happened, well gee thats nice but if I was a child instead of a bite to the hand it may have been their face.
The bottom line is this, If the owner would not have been quick( he was only a few steps behind his dog yelling at it the entire time to stop.) That dog would have been killed, sorry folks say what you want, I am a dog owner, ask anyone who knows me, my dogs are spolied rotten, but if I'm being attacked, I will kill the animal, I will stop the attack with whatever force is needed so if fluffy takes a hiking pole or a knife blade thru the chest oh well better the dog then me. The law is not going to be in favor of the dog or the owner in that case, especially if there is bodily harm done by the dog.
Moral of the story this guy and his dog hiked out that day, I got a tetnus shot and a doctor bill because of a dog that wasn't leashed. I was lucky, but it completley screwed up my plans for the day.

[FatMan]

Excellent point Tater.

And I have never hesitated to leash my dogs if someone asked me to do so. I ran across a lady coming up Tray Mountain who is absolutely terrified of dogs. As soon as she told me this, I leashed both dogs and moved 20 or so paces off the trail so she could pass without worry.

You are the exception to my experience.

I find that very hard to believe. It would take a major jerk not to leash their dog upon request. Any dog owner I know would gladly do so.

[Appalachian Tater]

I find that very hard to believe. It would take a major jerk not to leash their dog upon request. Any dog owner I know would gladly do so.

Not all do it gladly. Sometimes you have to get.....insistent.

[ChimneySpring]

I find that very hard to believe. It would take a major jerk not to leash their dog upon request. Any dog owner I know would gladly do so.

Any reason why they need to be leashed upon "request", rather than leashed safely and under control to start with? Again, you're being selfish in that rather than planning for and applying adequate control of the situation (e.g being proactively safe), you're waiting for others to dictate your responsibility.

Crazy how some could be so emphatic about leashing a dog. I guess the canine's freedom ranks right up there with your sense of being in the "wilderness" when on the AT. Any guesses on whether you and your ilk will be the first to moan when your animal actually acts like an animal and is reprimanded by another hiker? I can see it now... "innocent hiker companion injured...." Jesus. It's a dog. Leash the damn thing in public.

[dixicritter]

Notice



This forum was created for the purpose of discussing how to responsibly hike the trail with a dog. The purpose of the forum is not to debate the whole topic of dogs on the trail. If your aim is to do so, please go to The general forum or poll forum or something. Otherwise stay away from these threads.


That said, if you disagree with dogs on the trail, it is probably because of unaware or irresponsible owners. The purpose of this forum was to try to fix that. The hope is dog hikers can pass on to each other the things that make the rare, good trail dogs a good trail dog. If more trail dogs benefit from good owners, then maybe there will be less problems in the long run.


If a dog owner that plans to bring their dog to the trail comes here and learns all the informal rules; the health, safety, and first aid issues they must consider; the impact a hike can have on a dog, the impact a dog can have on a hike; the equipment and pack weight issues to consider; effects of secondary predation, disease, and other impacts of wildlife on the dog and the dog on the wildlife; and the overall impact of the dog hiker on other hikers and even other dogs - The hope is that a dog owner can participate in the forum and learn all the informal rules and how hard it can really be to hike with a pet responsibly, and then allow them to make a personal, informed decision to either not hike with a pet or to go on the trail armed with the skills, knowledge, and attitude to do it correctly.


All that said, this forum came about this way because it had to. Every time the topic of how to act responsibly, the thread deteriorated into another battle against dog lovers against the supposed "dog haters". So if you plan to post here, post advice about how to backpack responsibly with the pet as a response to the question or topic. Due to past experiences the threads will be monitored closely for failure to comply. Abusers will loose the ability to read or post on this forum.

Let's all remember this please.

[Sly]

Let's all remember this please.

Oh, I can't wait to opt out!

[minnesotasmith]

Only dogowners in favor of at least occasionally letting their dogs off-leash on public land answer them, please:

1) How do you defend experimenting with letting your dog run loose in places where there is any chance of them encountering other hikers, when you have no reason to believe those other hikers have specifically consented to you experimenting with their safety?

2) At what apparent threat level (on public lands not specifically set aside primarily for dogs to run loose) do you believe that another hiker (who does not know you or your dog) is justified in aiming either a can of bear spray or a loaded firearm at your loose dog?

3) At what apparent threat level would you believe another hiker would be justified in using bear spray or a firearm on your loose dog?

I genuinely would like to hear what you have to say on this. I personally believe any visible approach qualifies for #2, and any charge/growl/baring of teeth/approach closer than 10' qualifies for #3, but no doubt yours will be different. Surely your answers will be something other than "even if my loose dog is most of the way killing their toddler who did nothing to provoke it, they don't even have the right to be unhappy about it or raise their voice"?