Amen !!!!!!!!
Nothing is more expensive than regret.
No argument with Jack's post. I really understand it. I never had a bad experience with a dog when we did 1/2 the AT in 2001, but Jack has seen a whole lot more. Except for the dog in fontana hilton that slowly pushed me off my thermarest all night long so that he could sleep on it. Of course that wasn't too bad, 'cause he pushed me on to my wifes. I was my wife that ended up on the hard cold platform
However, I do take issue with the "health" of the dog brought up over and over again by others as a reason why you shouldn't take your dog. Huskies are FAR more capable that a lot of people to do this kind of hike. They are bred to not need much food or water. They love to work, carrying loads both on their backs and pulling. They are milage machines. Again, they compete regularly to haul themselves, gear, and a person over 1150 miles in 17 days for the Iditarod. Granted, these are world class athletes, but you will build your endurance while they build theirs. They also have been know to train with and complete marathons, so I just don't see the argument that they are not physically capable.
"unknown health/heart/joint problems" is just not an issue. This is equally probable with a person as with a dog. In fact, probably more likely since we don't have registries and breeding programs to prevent these problems.
"overheating problems are common " This is a serious concern that needs a lot of attention.
"risk of loss in the woods " Most husky breeds will tell you NEVER let your husky off lease. They are famous for getting lost.
"feet (from rocky terrain)" They make booties specifically for this
The only credible problems with taking a dog on a thruhike are not with the dog ,but with the person caring for it. Excellent training is the only answer to all of Jack's issues.
Would I take a Husky on a thruhike? I don't really know. I would be tempted to try it out, but have a plan to get her home and taken care of if things don't work out.
Gravity Man
I was planning on buying Jack a puppy for Christmas. Should I reconsider?
Let me see if I can pull this off:Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin
There is a legal maxim (and as a weasel, I should know) that says, "Your rights stop where my nose begins."
Damn. First time I've ever used fewer words for something than Jack did. But his is just as right as the shorter version, in everything else he says: Your dog is not welcome to make my trip miserable. (Hey, I think I did it again!)
The Weasel
"Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service
What to get Jack??
Nothing alive should suit him well, blow it up and/or sew on extra fur to something.
Blister "Bitchen" Sister
A puppy for Jack??
PLEASE.... Don't even consider giving Jack a puppy! We would have to call the animal welfare people at some point. He tried to feed my dog all the leftover salad and got all offended when Fabian looked at him funny!!
But "Straight Forward", to keep this thread pure, "how do I really feel about dogs on the trail?"
I am not a big hiker and I have taken my dog out for some really great, SHORT, hikes and a few recent overnights. He has done hundreds of miles of day hikes, overnights and a week once with other hikers... thus his trailname... SLACK DAWG. But on a long distance hike... it would be like taking a two year old child!! The 24/7 responsibility would take away from the trail experience I would want to have. I have seen lots of hikers with dogs get into my house and want to take a break from their dog. They leave them unattended for long periods without asking someone to babysit. They expect others to help out with keeping the dog safe, out of the road, out of other peoples stuff, off my neighbors lawns!!!
I have had people with dogs look at me and say..."OH, I never would tie my dog up!"... "I don't use a leash, he stays right with me."... "I don't use flea and tick control chemicals... they are bad for her!" The smartest, best trained, most experienced dog in the world... is still a DOG! He will be protective when you least expect it. He will bite if she feels the need is strong enough. He will eat someone elses food if he is hungry enough. She will chase off after something that she shouldn't... like a bear or a car... even if she has never done that before. I have had some great dog guests over the past few years. Some of them came with very well trained humans that were very responsible and considerate. I am sure that many hostels have had to stop taking dogs because of bad owner behavior or just thoughtlessness.
Even on a hike of just a few weeks most hikers will need to come into a town. So hikers with dogs need to consider what all that means for them and the dog.
Adopting dogs on the trail.
I have seen dozens of hikers ADOPT "stray" dogs on the trail. This is such a bad idea! The hiker is risking their very thruhike, often going to great expense to outfit the dog, then taking a dog out to hike that they do not know and has no hiking experience and just can't do it. Sometimes they are taking a dog that has an owner that is looking for them. The trail goes through lots of "back yards" and just because a dog seems hungry, lost or abandoned doesn't mean they are up for adoption.
This is usually the case with beagles and hounds found on the trail. These Hunting dogs are often seperated from owners and will eventually find their way home.These Hunting dogs found on the trail will often follow a hiker for days if they are being fed. You don't have to like how the hunters deal with the dogs or agree with hunting but please don't take them off the trail with you unless they have a collar with a phone number and YOU are willing to take responsibility for them until their owner can be located. These dogs often end up ran over on the streets of a trail town they do not know or destroyed by the dog pound in towns that have no Humane Society. NEVER REMOVE A HUNTING DOGS RADIO COLLAR!! This has caused a lot of trouble along the AT corridor. I hear some redneck hunters talk about what they will do to the hiker they catch doing it!! I don't want someone to get confronted or hurt by some of these "Bar Hunters!!"
Hiking Dog books
Anyone serious about taking a dog on the AT might want to read several of the books with actual experiences of dog owners.
I read Bill Irwin's book, "Blind Courage," about his thru hike with his seeing eye dog, Orient. Bill is blind. They were known as "The Orient Express." He writes a great deal about Orient. I also heard BIll Irwin speak this past April in Gatlinburg, TN about his thru hike with Orient, who has now since passed on due to dog's short lives.
Also a book by a woman thru hiker, I think called "Walking North." Her dog was shot, but not killed, near a trail town.
There are others.
Rain Man
"Whoever said they've seen people do all the bad things they've seen dogs do, is missing two important points: One, this is simply an untrue, ridiculous thing to say, and two; even if it were true, which it isn't, this doesn't mean that bad behavior by dogs and their owners should not be commented on. "
The above quote is from Jack Tarlin's Post.
Jack, it is patently absurd, and rather assinine, for you to tell me that a statement I make about MY experience is not true. My post was not about what YOU have seen, it was very clearly about what I have seen. Read your own quote above for clarification. Of course you can come up with your own experiences that may differ, but that doesn't invalidate the thrust of my statement, which, again, was based on MY personal experience. Also, NEVER did I state or imply that bad dog/owner behavior should be ignored, in fact, I encouraged the thread starter to seek dog training and advice from vets who know hiking.
Responsible behavior on trail is up to all of us. If you take a dog, please be considerate of others. If you don't like dogs, or dogs on trail, please be courteous in expressing it, I will listen, others usually will, too. Ditto if you carry a cell phone, a gun, illegal drugs, or if you snore, fart, talk in your sleep, burn things you shouldn't in the fire pits, or hike naked, drink, or smoke.
To get back to the orignal post, I recommend reading through all of these statements. The feelings are rather strong, and mostly point to one thing: Taking your dog is a HUGE set of responsibilities, and you must be honest with yourself about how well you will maintain those responsibilities. Jack is right, your dog does not have the right to ruin his hike, or anyone else's. (My desire, after reading all the negative posts, was merely to attempt to point out that dogs are not the worst offenders of ruining someone's hike, for a little perspective) But you do have the right to take him/her. Just know that doing so makes your hike more about the dog, than about you. It's health, happiness, well-being, behavior, are 100% your responsibility and must come first. This will mean hiking at his/her pace, LEASHING, possibly carrying a halty collar for unruly times. You may need to avoid certain hostels, you may need to hike on after a hard day in order to not annoy other hikers, you may have to rest or even quit for the sake of your dog.
Now for the sake of a little fun, in answer to Jack's list of horrible dog actions:
Things I have seen people do, but never a dog:
Crap in the middle of the trail, and leave it (I'm sure others have seen a dog do this, but I have only seen people do it.)
Get roaring drunk and beat up a hiker who was only trying to sleep, thereby ending his hike.
Get roaring drunk and vomit on another hiker's pack. (I won't stay at that Erwin area hostel again)
Frighten female hikers by making aggressive sexual advances
Rob a bank in Georgia and try to get away on the AT. (This guy was a classic, called himself Richie Rich)
Burn blue jeans, sneakers, plastic in a fire pit
Drink a 12 pack and leave the empty cans in the shelter
Drink a bottle of Jack Daniels and leave the bottle in the shelter
Pull a gun out of his pack and try take down a deer. (To be honest, never saw that one, just heard about it)
Leave cigarette butts from Georgia to Maine
Fill a shelter with his cigarette smoke and refuse to leave 'cause it's raining
Yell on his cell phone, because that obviously makes the connection better
I could write more, my point is not to inflame, but to reiterate, the problem is people.
"Life is either a daring adventure, or it is nothing at all."
- Helen Keller
Responsible behavior on trail is up to all of us....If you don't like dogs, or dogs on trail, please be courteous in expressing it, I will listen, others usually will, too. Ditto if you carry a cell phone, a gun, illegal drugs, or if you snore, fart, talk in your sleep, burn things you shouldn't in the fire pits, or hike naked, drink, or smoke.
Some of you think I hate dogs. Well, I don't. I love dogs...I've been to China, and....well,we won't go there, at least right now. But I gotta draw the line. I've heard how I have to tolerate dogs, and I have, and I will. BUT NOW I GOTTA LISTEN COURTEOUSLY WHEN ALL OF YOU FART? I mean, damn! It's easy to be courteous when some dude is waving a gun, so yeah, I'm cool then. And I didn't complain ONCE (did I, Steve?) when Nicole Kidman met us in Gatlinburg for National Nude Backpacker Day. I was VERY courteous, well, sorta courteous.
But FARTING? And does that mean I have to be DOUBLE courteous when a dog farts? Triple when the dog snores while farting?
This has got to stop, people! There is a limit!
The Weasel
"Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service
[QUOTE=The Weasel
I mean, damn! It's easy to be courteous when some dude is waving a gun, so yeah, I'm cool then. And I didn't complain ONCE (did I, Steve?) when Nicole Kidman met us in Gatlinburg for National Nude Backpacker Day. I was VERY courteous, well, sorta courteous.
This has got to stop, people! There is a limit!
The Weasel[/QUOTE]
you didn't complain when I waved the gun at you when I "arrested" you hitch-hiking or when we meet nikky in g'burg???? or at least i didn';t HEAR ya complain maybe ya did...
U B talking bout something else and NO you didn't complain as a matter of fact quite supportive IMO!!! THANKS
"I'd rather kill a man than a snake. Not because I love snakes or hate men. It is a question, rather, of proportion." Edward Abbey
Weasel pleeze ex-plain i cant quite get that thru my noggin.
Oh, I've just gotta weigh in on this one..
I own, train, and breed Search and Rescue dogs, primarily labs. I was actively searching the Pentagon after 9/11 for 60 hours. The dog food I feed my S&R team costs roughly $2 a pound. My primary search dog is a 2.5 year old yellow(white) lab. I can tell you what he is going to do long before he knows. He has saved my life at least twice, by recognizing danger zones that I've missed. He's located 6 missing children, 2 bodies, and during our 9/11 stint, 31 body parts and 2 cadavers.
He goes with me into Wal-Mart. The grocery store. To get a haircut. Bookstores. Work. Out to eat. Anywhere and everywhere I go, he goes.
The relationship that we have is one based on trust, and when his body language says "Hey, slow down, check this out", I do, without question or hesitation. When I say "TJ, down stay", he will remain there until I tell him to move, and will, quite literally, piss himself if I haven't released him. He'll drop&stop to the ground within 5 feet on command, no matter what he's chasing or how fast he's running. He digs his own catholes, and is fairly good about re-covering as well. He will follow voice, hand, as well as directional eye commands to the point of running into trees and pushing on them.
Want to guess the one place he doesn't go?
Hiking.
Despite the blinding emotional involvment and attachment that some of you have with your dogs, they are not built to hike long distances every day. Let me repeat that---Your dog is not built to hike every day. Not 25 miles, not 10, not 5.
Sure, I know that your dog is different. And I know you've done "xx" miles with him. Right. Whatever.
That does not change the fact that your dog is not built to hike every day, and you're too blinded by emotion to see that.
I'll also say this: My dog is not well trained enough to thru hike, to say nothing of yours that has trouble with "come", "stay" and "heel".
That said, if you want to bring your dog, more power to you. If you bring your dog on the trail, you have the responsibility to have trained him to anticipate everything that he will encounter therein and how to respond accordingly.
Let me put it delicately. When in China, be VERY careful about ordering "off the menu."
The Weasel
"Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service
I thought dogs were Korean food...
china like meow?
"I'd rather kill a man than a snake. Not because I love snakes or hate men. It is a question, rather, of proportion." Edward Abbey
Ren---
I'm tired of this thread so I'll keep it short:
Nowhere in my post did I say that I doubt your trail experiences were true.
But with all due respect, I think my trail experience and my encounters with trail dogs and their owners is probably greater than your own.
My main points were this:
*Most "dog" problems are really dog OWNER problems
*Most dogs on the Trail don't belong there
*The majority of dog owners don't take enough time to considr, or more than likely, simply don't care how their dog's presence and behavior impacts other folks.
Reciting a litany of objectionable behavior regarding humans made for amusing reading Ren, but that's not what we're talking about here---maybe you're right, and maybe most HUMANS don't belong out there, either.
But this thread is about dogs, and I stand by my comments.
So, how about saying OK to dogs on the trail, but not dog owners?
We should lynch the next dog that threatens or bites a human. People have dealt with troublemakers in that manner in the past, and in fact one hiker lynched a mouse that was especially obnoxious. Yup, slipped a piece of twine over his head and hung him from the shelter rafters, in plain view of his comrades. Shelter was pretty quiet at night for awhile after that.
So the next mutt that bares his teeth at a hiker, put a noose around his neck and hang him high, right over the trail. That'll send a message loud and clear.
Until this post is, I hope, deleted again, I cannot help but say how regrettable this posting is. I can only hope that it is not serious, but even as a jest it is - thoughtlessly and unknowingly, I certainly trust - unacceptable here.
From about 1880 to 1930, 2800 "troublemakers" were lynched in 10 southern states. Of those, 2500 - perhaps more - were African-Americans. That means that, on average, a Black American man, woman or child was murdered every week during that time. It was not the end; hundreds, perhaps thousands of lynchings continued through the '60s - including civil rights workers - and still do, and not only in the South. Of the other 300, many were considered "troublemakers" for being Catholic, Jewish, or foreign-born. Nothing more than that. If you think there is humor in it, check it out:
http://aztlan.net/lynching.jpg
And as for "lynching" animals, well, I'm sorry. There's no humor there, either. And while not in the same category as racial murder, it's a felony in every state of the Union.
The Weasel
"Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service
Which town was it that lynched an elephant?????
"It was on the first of May, in the year 1769, that I resigned my domestic happiness for a time, and left my family and peaceable habitation on the Yadkin River, in North Carolina, to wander through the wilderness of America." - Daniel Boone
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