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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    I've been using V-I off and on for decades, no stomach problems whatsoever. I assume any "stomach problems" would include some sort of symptom?

    That being said, when I had my first colonoscopy 5 years ago (I know, I was "late" doing this...) they did find a small ulcer in my colon... doc said it might be because of V-I. The test was right after a very long hike with more than usual V-I use.

    So yeah, take this stuff sparingly if you can, I try to limit to 3 tabs a day when on long hikes and like said below, take "V-I holidays" on neros or other short easy days. I also cross-train more these days with swimming, biking, skiing and kayaking, none of which I currently need any meds to enjoy. I hike a bit less except on long hikes, but long distance hiking is still #1 on my fun-O-meter.

    But if it comes down to hiking with it or not hiking at all, fugedaboudid. The overall benefits of a very active lifestyle swamp the down side of NSAIDs. My doc agrees.

    I've tried a bunch of "natural remedies", none work for me. The only one that comes close is taking Turmeric, there is a hint of benefit there, I've been experimenting with Turmeric and a lower dose of V-I.
    I am a recover Vitamin Iaholic. For the reasons you mention I have also cut back and have been playing with turmeric as well.
    enemy of unnecessary but innovative trail invention gadgetry

  2. #22
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    Excerpts are often misleading as they are regularly used out of context. I've done this too so not pointing down at anyone.

    Renal, cardiovascular, cross drug contradictions, blood thinning, allergies, systematic arthritis...as well as gastrointestinal issues can occur even among generally healthy populations. It's been shown in several studies, one in a large case study conducted in Europe, NSAID users, using NSAIDs according to directions, had a 19% increased risk of heart failure. The U.S. FDA also has strongly stated NSAIDs raise the risk of heart attack and stroke.

    More problematic, especially for the U.S. population, is it's culturally quite common to abuse pain killers including NSAIDs. This abuse leads to increased health risks. In many U.S. hiking communities the potential for abuse is even greater, evident by labeling a pain killer an essential vitamin and observed consumed daily quantities in dosage rates and duration of use. Systemic pain killer use and abuse is rampant in the U.S evidenced by less than 5% of the world's population consuming nearly 80% of the world's annual pain killer pill consumption. There's a problem in the culture and within the medical pharmaceutical system.

  3. #23
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    http://americannutritionassociation..../deadly-nsaids

    It is generally stated that the side effects of NSAIDs are fairly mild causing a possible upset stomach and/or nausea and vomiting. It is often recommended that the stomach upset, nausea and vomiting can be avoided by taking the medication with a little food or milk. It is also well stated that long-term or extensive ingestion of NSAIDs can result in the drugs having toxicity to the kidneys and also to the lining of the stomach, possibly causing ulcers. Except for these mild warning these medications are considered safe and effective. But in reality just how safe are these types of drugs?
    A statement from a July 1998 issue of The American Journal of Medicine states the following:
    “Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone. The figures of all NSAID users would be overwhelming, yet the scope of this problem is generally under-appreciated.”
    And again a year later (June 1999) in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine there is a similar statement:
    “It has been estimated conservatively that 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur among patients with rheumatoid arthritis or osteoarthritis every year in the United States. This figure is similar to the number of deaths from the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome and considerably greater than the number of deaths from multiple myeloma, asthma, cervical cancer, or Hodgkin’s disease. If deaths from gastrointestinal toxic effects from NSAIDs were tabulated separately in the National Vital Statistics reports, these effects would constitute the 15th most common cause of death in the United States. Yet these toxic effects remain mainly a “silent epidemic,” with many physicians and most patients unaware of the magnitude of the problem. Furthermore the mortality statistics do not include deaths ascribed to the use of over-the-counter NSAIDs.

    What these journal articles are stating is shocking. Over 100,000 people are hospitalized for GI bleeding and of those 16,500 die every year. And these values are considered “conservative”. Also the figures only include prescription NSAIDs used to treat only arthritis and only in the United States. If prescription and over the counter NSAID-related hospitalizations and death rates were counted for not only arthritis, but for all conditions, and throughout the world, the figures would no doubt be enormous. Taking those figures and applying them over the many years that this class of drug that has been available since the early 1970s and the numbers would be horrific. And yet, no study to date has attempted to quantify these figures. A graph from the same article shows this alarming statistic relative to other causes of deaths.

    I've seen U.S. fatality rates ranging from 43,000 to 48,000 annually from combined(OTC and prescription) NSAID use.


    Bigger issue than what's reported!


    IMO OTC and prescription pain killer abuse easily gets the the title for the most abused drug on any trail and within any hiking community in the U.S.


    Stop calling drug use a vitamin use.



  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by LDog View Post
    Right, let the body create its own anti-inflammatories when the time is right. Rest, ice, compression, elevation. Smallest effective dose of Tylenol that lets me sleep. Hit it with ibuprophen if inflammation does not dissipate in a few days. Taking ibuprofen daily for extended periods of time is a kidney killer. L Dog
    Where do you get ice while hiking?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasBob View Post
    Where do you get ice while hiking?
    Most anywhere right now. Last time I needed it real bad, I got it at Ron Haven’s Budget Inn!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by LDog View Post
    Most anywhere right now. Last time I needed it real bad, I got it at Ron Haven’s Budget Inn! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    What if you are not in town and you are hurting, just suffer?
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    http://americannutritionassociation..../deadly-nsaids

    It is generally stated that the side effects of NSAIDs are fairly mild causing a possible upset stomach and/or nausea and vomiting. It is often recommended that the stomach upset, nausea and vomiting can be avoided by taking the medication with a little food or milk. It is also well stated that long-term or extensive ingestion of NSAIDs can result in the drugs having toxicity to the kidneys and also to the lining of the stomach, possibly causing ulcers. Except for these mild warning these medications are considered safe and effective. But in reality just how safe are these types of drugs?
    A statement from a July 1998 issue of The American Journal of Medicine states the following:
    “Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone. The figures of all NSAID users would be overwhelming, yet the scope of this problem is generally under-appreciated.”
    And again a year later (June 1999) in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine there is a similar statement:
    “It has been estimated conservatively that 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur among patients with rheumatoid arthritis or osteoarthritis every year in the United States. This figure is similar to the number of deaths from the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome and considerably greater than the number of deaths from multiple myeloma, asthma, cervical cancer, or Hodgkin’s disease. If deaths from gastrointestinal toxic effects from NSAIDs were tabulated separately in the National Vital Statistics reports, these effects would constitute the 15th most common cause of death in the United States. Yet these toxic effects remain mainly a “silent epidemic,” with many physicians and most patients unaware of the magnitude of the problem. Furthermore the mortality statistics do not include deaths ascribed to the use of over-the-counter NSAIDs.

    What these journal articles are stating is shocking. Over 100,000 people are hospitalized for GI bleeding and of those 16,500 die every year. And these values are considered “conservative”. Also the figures only include prescription NSAIDs used to treat only arthritis and only in the United States. If prescription and over the counter NSAID-related hospitalizations and death rates were counted for not only arthritis, but for all conditions, and throughout the world, the figures would no doubt be enormous. Taking those figures and applying them over the many years that this class of drug that has been available since the early 1970s and the numbers would be horrific. And yet, no study to date has attempted to quantify these figures. A graph from the same article shows this alarming statistic relative to other causes of deaths.

    I've seen U.S. fatality rates ranging from 43,000 to 48,000 annually from combined(OTC and prescription) NSAID use.


    Bigger issue than what's reported!


    IMO OTC and prescription pain killer abuse easily gets the the title for the most abused drug on any trail and within any hiking community in the U.S.


    Stop calling drug use a vitamin use.


    Not tonight Dogwood, I have a head ache

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasBob View Post
    What if you are not in town and you are hurting, just suffer?
    No, you use a wet compress and get relief from the evaporative cooling. Just keep trickling water onto the bandana. Not as effective as ice, but better than nothing.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    Not tonight Dogwood, I have a head ache

    That makes sense. NSAIDs have recently been linked to male infertility.


    Rocketsocks = Wetlimpsock?


    Ohh, take some Ibuprofen. It's perfectly safe when used as directed.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasBob View Post
    What if you are not in town and you are hurting, just suffer?
    Suffer? No. But early on is not the time to hit it with nsaids. I’d take a Tylenol for pain if I needed it, and I’d rest, compress, elevate, and soak in a cold spring if I could. I try and let my body produce the anti-Inflammatories it needs naturally. After a few days, if the pain hasn’t subsided, I’d take the nsaid.

    Like a few others have said, I don’t think the wholesale adoption of the term Vit I is healthy for our community
    Ldog
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malto View Post
    I am a recover Vitamin Iaholic. For the reasons you mention I have also cut back and have been playing with turmeric as well.
    I really do think Turmeric helps, I might try to do a controlled little study, but I'm fairly sure 2 tabs (400mg) of V-I along with a couple Turmeric tablets a day gets me by, whereas I needed three V-I tabs in the past to reduce the pain to comfortable levels.

    Tylenol does zero for my hiking pains. Is it even an anti-imflam?

    I'm jealous of and very happy for those that do not need NSAIDs to hike long distances in comfort! Ice doesn't do much at all for my particular pains, we're all quite different. Rest and elevation? Sure. That (the rest part) means an 8-month AT thru for many of us.... I do stretch and elevate in the evenings on the trail.. Not sure it does much for me, but it feels good at the time.

    BTW, I did a bit more research, and it appears that Naproxen (alieve) is a bit more risky for Kidney issues than V-I.

    For those of us that do have to use this Wonder Drug, I do highly recommend regular blood tests. I get one free one a year with my yearly physical, and get an additional one at 6-months for about $100 (online voucher, but at the same lab). This gives me great comfort that my kidneys are just fine. For now....

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    I really do think Turmeric helps, I might try to do a controlled little study, but I'm fairly sure 2 tabs (400mg) of V-I along with a couple Turmeric tablets a day gets me by, whereas I needed three V-I tabs in the past to reduce the pain to comfortable levels.

    Tylenol does zero for my hiking pains. Is it even an anti-imflam?

    I'm jealous of and very happy for those that do not need NSAIDs to hike long distances in comfort! Ice doesn't do much at all for my particular pains, we're all quite different. Rest and elevation? Sure. That (the rest part) means an 8-month AT thru for many of us.... I do stretch and elevate in the evenings on the trail.. Not sure it does much for me, but it feels good at the time.

    BTW, I did a bit more research, and it appears that Naproxen (alieve) is a bit more risky for Kidney issues than V-I.

    For those of us that do have to use this Wonder Drug, I do highly recommend regular blood tests. I get one free one a year with my yearly physical, and get an additional one at 6-months for about $100 (online voucher, but at the same lab). This gives me great comfort that my kidneys are just fine. For now....
    Just make sure you're taking some black pepper with your turmeric, it's not very bioavailable without it

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    That makes sense. NSAIDs have recently been linked to male infertility.


    Rocketsocks = Wetlimpsock?


    Ohh, take some Ibuprofen. It's perfectly safe when used as directed.
    true

    probably the bigger issue, and one that brought Tylenol to the forefront in the news was people (big drinkers) taking it for a hangovers...hmm, alcohol needs processing, the Vit I needs process, overload = you die. Knew a kid this happen to.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zea View Post
    Just make sure you're taking some black pepper with your turmeric, it's not very bioavailable without it
    Yes piperine adds greater bio availability to curcuminoids especially important in most turmeric/curcumin pill supplements and powders. Better bioavailability can be obtained by eating in a wholefoods state(grated into brown rice and beans or made into a tea for example, heating also increases bioavailablity), consumed with a fat such as olive or flax seed oil or coconut milk(turmeric is fat soluble), consume with quercetin rich food such as RAW broccoli, kale, onions, peppers, spinach, and tomatoes.
    I've done all these at home and to some extent on trail. Making a almond or coconut milk drink with turmeric powder is what I will do at home as well as making a fresh grated turmeric and ginger root with fresh real squeezed lemon and Organic honey topped with coconut milk tea . I haven't yet tried a high quality powdered coconut milk such as made by Native Forest(an Edwards & Sons Co) with turmeric powder for ease of on trail use to be reconstituted with clean spring water...which just came to me because of your post Zea.


    Whenever possible my trail food bag includes some ginger, turmeric, ginseng, a few serrano peppers, and some type of non trans fats such as EVOO or coconut milk/oil.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by LDog View Post
    Suffer? No. But early on is not the time to hit it with nsaids. I’d take a Tylenol for pain if I needed it, and I’d rest, compress, elevate, and soak in a cold spring if I could. I try and let my body produce the anti-Inflammatories it needs naturally. After a few days, if the pain hasn’t subsided, I’d take the nsaid. Like a few others have said, I don’t think the wholesale adoption of the term Vit I is healthy for our community
    You have it backwards. The reason you have inflammation is because your body is producing chemicals that cause the inflammatory response when there is injury or insult to your tissues. Inflammation decreases when your body stops producing the chemicals that cause inflammation or when you take meds like ibuprofen which block the action of the inflammatory chemicals not when your body produces "anti-inflammatories". Believing that taking ibuprofen will prevent your body from producing its own anti-inflammatories is exactly backwards. Inflammation goes away as the injury or insult resolves and your body stops producing the chemicals that cause inflammation.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  16. #36
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    Ibuprofen seems to work better for reducing aches and pains than Tylenol / acetaminophen. Food seems to be a good way to cut into any stomach irritation it causes but it may reduce absorption. I would be interested in hearing about any success with specific "herbal" anti-inflammatories

  17. #37
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    Turmeric is a herb.


    Ginger, clove, rosemary, oregano, cinnamon, garlic(usually classified as a herb), Boswellia serrata(capsule), Holy Basil(Ocimum, also in capsule)....Many of these are in one anti- inflammatory pill that makes it simpler(and less expensive if you want to go the supplement approach!) on trail - New Chapter Zyflammend Whole Body found in health food stores. Watch for sales! I definitely note a difference in about 10 days when starting Zyflammend when taken as directed(2 pills/day) and about the same time if I stop taking it as far as inflammation hence pain. The Boswellia can be had as a separate pill but I get my dosage on trail when taking Osteo Bi Flex. With injury, like when I broke my ankle, I might take a separate pill so to easily increase the dosage. It's hard for me to say conclusively that boswellia is the magic bullet in the Osteo Bi Flex. IMO, none of these are lone silver anti inflammatory bullets.


    I try to incorporate all in on and off trail food. The hardest for me on trail is ground clove which with cinnamon and ginger and dried apples/dried pears, etc and powdered coconut milk/coconut oil I add to a morning cereal whole grain like oats, millet, quinoa(a seed), etc along with maybe some nuts/nut butters.


    Many if not all of these have other potential health benefits...anti fungal, anti bacterial, blood thinning, joint support, cognitive enhancement,...


    It's hard for me to give many specific encounters as I've never consumed any of these isolated from other anti inflammatory dietary and lifestyle habits. This is important. IMHO, it's never about a lone magic wonder pill or single supplement - OR PHARMACEUTICAL - addressing pain or inflammation. It's about a wider encompassing comprehensive synergistic lifestyle that significantly includes a dietary component rather than solely relying on supplements(herbs, script and OTC pharmaceuticals/meds, nutraceuticals, etc) .

    Here's my rec for a good start though: https://www.newchapter.com/products/...tm_feeditemid= Incorporate the whole fresh herbs easily found like ginger , etc. too

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Turmeric is a herb.


    Ginger, clove, rosemary, oregano, cinnamon, garlic(usually classified as a herb), Boswellia serrata(capsule), Holy Basil(Ocimum, also in capsule)....Many of these are in one anti- inflammatory pill that makes it simpler(and less expensive if you want to go the supplement approach!) on trail - New Chapter Zyflammend Whole Body found in health food stores. Watch for sales! I definitely note a difference in about 10 days when starting Zyflammend when taken as directed(2 pills/day) and about the same time if I stop taking it as far as inflammation hence pain. The Boswellia can be had as a separate pill but I get my dosage on trail when taking Osteo Bi Flex. With injury, like when I broke my ankle, I might take a separate pill so to easily increase the dosage. It's hard for me to say conclusively that boswellia is the magic bullet in the Osteo Bi Flex. IMO, none of these are lone silver anti inflammatory bullets.


    I try to incorporate all in on and off trail food. The hardest for me on trail is ground clove which with cinnamon and ginger and dried apples/dried pears, etc and powdered coconut milk/coconut oil I add to a morning cereal whole grain like oats, millet, quinoa(a seed), etc along with maybe some nuts/nut butters.


    Many if not all of these have other potential health benefits...anti fungal, anti bacterial, blood thinning, joint support, cognitive enhancement,...


    It's hard for me to give many specific encounters as I've never consumed any of these isolated from other anti inflammatory dietary and lifestyle habits. This is important. IMHO, it's never about a lone magic wonder pill or single supplement - OR PHARMACEUTICAL - addressing pain or inflammation. It's about a wider encompassing comprehensive synergistic lifestyle that significantly includes a dietary component rather than solely relying on supplements(herbs, script and OTC pharmaceuticals/meds, nutraceuticals, etc) .

    Here's my rec for a good start though: https://www.newchapter.com/products/...tm_feeditemid= Incorporate the whole fresh herbs easily found like ginger , etc. too
    Good tips. It’s unfortunate (as you mention) that alternative therapies are expensive and cost-prohibitive for many people. If taken as directed, New Chapter Zyflamend is $40/month.

    Due to diet changes, exercise, and weight loss, I reduced my CRP (c reactive protein) from a staggering 40 to 1.1 and rarely need to take an anti inflammatory.

  19. #39

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    Due to diet changes, exercise, and weight loss, I reduced my CRP (c reactive protein) from a staggering 40 to 1.1 and rarely need to take an anti inflammatory.[/QUOTE]

    Great job traffic jam!

    just because an item is OTC, do not assume it is harmless! I had a nasty GI bleed issue years ago while following my Dr’s advice using ibuprofen. Initially I couldn’t take the cocurrum due to stomach pain, but now I can. I try to follow a low inflammatory diet 85% of the time which helps.

    Some local lotions like biofreez or other menthol cream might be a better choice than ibuprofen, or at least to minimize its use. Also, my doc just gave me some free samples of nsaid cream which are script. ( pennsaid, which is topical diclofenac) to try instead of systemically treating my whole body by popping ibuprofen. It’s for osteoarthritis. Ask your doc about alternatives. Try diet changes. Stay well hydrated. HYOH ;*)

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