WhiteBlaze Pages 2024
A Complete Appalachian Trail Guidebook.
AVAILABLE NOW. $4 for interactive PDF(smartphone version)
Read more here WhiteBlaze Pages Store

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 127
  1. #41
    There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus! Monkeyboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-11-2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,004

    Default

    If there were no adults present, it was either :

    a.) Not a BSA function, because all trips by the BSA must have two adult leaders at all times, with a tour permit to allow them to be at said location. So just because they are Scouts does not mean it was a Scout function.

    or b.) It was a Scout authorized function, but was negligent on the scout leaders part for not being at their authorized function as stated.

    So either it is just a bunch of kids who just happen to be scouts or the negligence of the adult leaders.

    If it was the kids.....tough luck on that one trying to hold a minor responsible.

    If it was the adults who left them, it is their negligence, not BSA.

    Either way, it is not BSA's fault.....

  2. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Footslogger View Post
    Not familiar with the facts, not making excuses and I have NO idea how this will play out BUT ...having been actively involved with a scout troop for over 12 years I feel comfortable saying that in all likelihood, of the total number of adults present, very few were actually "trained" scouters with outdoor experience. There are no doubt exceptions, but that was my experience.

    We used to have serious trouble getting a decent number of adults to accompany us on backpacking trips with the troop. It generally came down to me, another outdoor oriented adult and then a handful of Dad's who went along "just because their sons were going".

    Point being ...there's a pretty decent chance that "qualified supervision" was very limited. That's no excuse for carelessness, but it is an unfortunate fact of life in scouting.

    'Slogger
    Slogger --

    Yeah, you're right (unfortunately), although the "qualified supervision" part isn't (you know this...I'm saying it for others here not involved in BSA) so much about "outdoor" stuff as about how to supervise youth effectively. Often, it was the "other adults" who encouraged/permitted the off limits stuff, which was one of the reasons for backpacking (higher risk activity) that we usually limited adult participation to 3 out of 10 (max size). That way, at least one leader was trained, and only had to supervise two adults (the kids usually are easier, as you know!).

    Every unit is different, of course, and it's hard sometimes. But situations like this are why BSA really works hard to cram supevision skills (as well as outdoor ones) into the adults, so they don't happen (much).
    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  3. #43
    Registered User Pacific Tortuga's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-31-2005
    Location
    Silverado,CA.
    Age
    68
    Posts
    1,078
    Images
    38

    Default

    Fault sometimes has nothing to do with who will end up paying

  4. #44
    1000+ miles down, 1000+ miles to go
    Join Date
    03-04-2006
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Age
    69
    Posts
    491

    Default Your question

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    A question of those involved in BSA -- why would two 15 yo boys ever be left in charge of seventeen 12 to 14 yo boys? In TN, I could have removed all 19 of these children from their parents' custody -- all 19 for neglect by lack of adequate supervision and two for being placed in charge of younger children for longer than the law allows at their age (a 15 yo is not allowed to supervision younger children overnight). Is this a common practice or even allowed by BSA guidelines?
    The answer is they shouldn't have been. BSA guidelines are quite specific about adult leadership guidelines. At the troop level (it's more strict at the pack level) there MUST be two adults, with one of them at least 21. It sounds like some adult leaders overestimated the maturity of some of the older boys in the troop...not the first time I've heard/seen that happen. Then again I do wish we had the whole story.
    "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute.
    But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute--and it's longer than any hour.
    That's relativity." --Albert Einstein--

  5. #45
    Registered User Dances with Mice's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-20-2003
    Location
    North Georgia
    Posts
    3,974
    Images
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel View Post
    ....I'm guessing here, but it is both common and proper, in BSA, subject to a number of conditions.

    Under BSA rules, every event of any kind (including meetings, or even Merit Badge teaching sessions) must have two adults, one of whom must be 21 or more (the other may be 18 or older) present for the event. This obviously includes outdoor events, including camping and backpacking
    Kinda sorta. Some patrol activities need not have adult supervision, although overnight campouts must, and two-deep adult leadership is not required for Merit Badge teaching sessions but at least 2 Scouts must be in attendance with an adult MB counselor.

    It didn't say in the article if the campout was a single troop or if it was during a summer camp event using teen camp counselors.

    If a Jury Trial is given to the Scouts, the prosecutors can hang it up. Case closed. Prosecute Scouts in Utah? Yeah right, might as well just sue the Mormon church too while they're at it.
    You never turned around to see the frowns
    On the jugglers and the clowns
    When they all did tricks for you.

  6. #46
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dances with Mice View Post
    Kinda sorta. Some patrol activities need not have adult supervision, although overnight campouts must, and two-deep adult leadership is not required for Merit Badge teaching sessions but at least 2 Scouts must be in attendance with an adult MB counselor. ***
    Dances -

    My point (I don't think we really disagree) is that "adult supervision" doesn't mean that an adult is within physical reach every moment. This means a "patrol" (4-8 youth with a youth 'in charge') can take a day hike without an adult physically with them, in some circumstances, as part of a larger event such as a troop campout. (A lot depends on where the hike will be, and the Scoutmaster must check this out carefully, including the experience levels of the youth.)

    As for Merit Badges, well, that's a topic of dispute in some places, I know. In light of the risks for youth, my position has always been that there must be two adults physically present at the location of the counseling session, as well as a minimum of two Scouts present in the room at all times. (E.g., my wife would have to be home, or else I would have the session at a public location where another adult was aware I was doing the counseling, such as at a library or a Troop meeting.)


    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  7. #47

    Default

    I have only one AT thru but more backpacking time than many. I've been backpacking since I was a boy scout in Baxter Park in the late 1940's. In my years I have seen some wonderful, well behaved boy scouts. Unfortunately I have also seen uncontrolled monsters who were in fact boy scouts. Yelling, throwing things, trashing camp sites and staying up all night. I have also seen boy scouts move out of a shelter to make room for others. I have seen them share their food. I have seen them gather firewood for everyone camping around them. Camp and church groups fit the same mold. there are good ones and bad ones. Another group that can muck up a good hike are freshmen orientation groups from colleges that you see in New England in late August and September. A bunch of city kids thrown into the wilderness. With proper leadership all these groups can have a rewarding wilderness experience but too often they are led by puffy pink men in ill fitting shorts that either read a book or watched a video on wilderness camping the night before they started their adventure. They have no control over their charges and ruin it for everyone. I have many memories of wet crying kids, clad in cotton, with their eighteen dollar sleeping bags listening to a soft flabby leader telling them how much fun they are having. This fall when I climbed Katahdin with a boy scout troop caught up with me. They had been in the wilderness for two weeks. They were knowledgable, well behaved and a joy to hike a few miles with. It isn't the boy scouts, I blame the individual group leaders and if the scouts had some standard of who they put in charge these bad situations would never occour.
    [FONT="Arial Black"][/FONT]Don't fret the petty things, &
    Don't pet the sweaty things[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][/FONT][I][/I]
    (I'm moxie00 on my apple-moxie on my PC)

  8. #48
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxie00 View Post
    *** Another group that can muck up a good hike are freshmen orientation groups from colleges that you see in New England in late August and September. A bunch of city kids thrown into the wilderness. With proper leadership all these groups can have a rewarding wilderness experience but too often they are led by puffy pink men in ill fitting shorts ***.
    Bill Bryson is has ill fitting shorts?

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  9. #49
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxie00 View Post
    *** Another group that can muck up a good hike are freshmen orientation groups from colleges that you see in New England in late August and September. A bunch of city kids thrown into the wilderness. With proper leadership all these groups can have a rewarding wilderness experience but too often they are led by puffy pink men in ill fitting shorts ***.
    Bill Bryson is has ill fitting shorts?

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  10. #50
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxie00 View Post
    *** Another group that can muck up a good hike are freshmen orientation groups from colleges that you see in New England in late August and September. A bunch of city kids thrown into the wilderness. With proper leadership all these groups can have a rewarding wilderness experience but too often they are led by puffy pink men in ill fitting shorts ***.
    Bill Bryson is has ill fitting shorts?

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  11. #51
    Registered User Frolicking Dinosaurs's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-25-2005
    Location
    Frolicking elsewhere
    Posts
    12,398
    Images
    15

    Default

    While I can understand the idea of training older boys to lead younger boys, doing this without any adult supervision nearby is downright foolish and dangerous.

  12. #52
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    FD: "Nearby" is a relative term, and you and I don't disagree. Generally, BSA would have 2 adults with or in the immediate vicinity of Scouts pretty much all the time, but not necessarily in eyeball range. The goal is to teach young men how to be self-reliant. So you don't want to hover. It's a difficult balance, and good Scoutmasters - we all try hard to be one (by the way, that includes women, too) - work hard to make sure things are safe and sane, while not "daddying/mommying" Scouts so that they don't learn the real lessons of the outdoors.

    By the way, the "training" isn't "to train older boys to lead younger boys." It's to train young men to lead others, including adults. Most Eagle Scouts, as part of their leadership/service project, will be expected to directly lead and supervise adults far older than them.

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  13. #53
    Donating Member/AT Class of 2003 - The WET year
    Join Date
    09-27-2002
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Age
    74
    Posts
    7,149
    Images
    90

    Default

    [quote=The Weasel;303613]FD: "Nearby" is a relative term, and you and I don't disagree. Generally, BSA would have 2 adults with or in the immediate vicinity of Scouts pretty much all the time, but not necessarily in eyeball range.
    =====================================

    True ...we always operated on the "Two Deep Leadership" approach. We also strived for a ratio of 2 adults per 8 scouts as a rule. An 18 year old Eagle could act as the "second leader" but was never put solely in charge of a group of youger scouts.

    'Slogger
    The more I learn ...the more I realize I don't know.

  14. #54
    Registered User jollies's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-16-2004
    Location
    Corning, NY
    Age
    42
    Posts
    80

    Default A Professional Scouter's Perspective

    I will add some of my perspective because I can claim to be an authority on this subject, being a professional Scouter, however, I think it is definitely a good idea not to judge this situation just on what we have been "fed" so far via media reports. Most of what I would say has already been mentioned in this thread:

    a.) No activity is a "Scouting" activity without appropriate 2-deep leadership as mentioned previously.
    b.) A tour permit must be filed for a non-district or non-council run activity, which is to inform the council of what the unit is doing and also to make sure that appropriate leadership is present. The approval of the tour permit covers the activity with insurance for anything that might happen during the activity. This would cover the liability of an accidental forest fire in this case by the national BSA insurance.
    c.) There is never a time that 15-year old youth members are allowed to be in leadership roles and not have adult supervision, even at a Summer Camp activity. Counselors in Training or CIT's can be a minimum of 15. National camp school policy requires that only 18-year old Scouts or older can hold directorship positions, and you must be 16-years of age or older to be an official camp staff member.

    It is a good idea to wait for the rest of the facts to come in here, as has been mentioned in many of the other comments. I feel that in our society today (example: The Duke Lacrosse case or Floyd Landis) we jump to quickly to conclusions and condemn others strictly on what we are told at the time and before we can make a well-informed decision. Hope this is helpful to the readers :-)

  15. #55
    Registered User moxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-02-2007
    Location
    Mount Vernon, Maine
    Posts
    194

    Default

    I was a leader when my two sons were scouts.. A troop leader was chosen by who could get away when the trip was scheduled, usually a minimally qualified parent. Too often I've seen spaghetti armed insurance salesman whos outdoor experience consisted of a walk to the road to get the morning paper end up leading a trip when no one else could do it. If two leaders were required the spaghetti armed insurance salesman would have his pink, puffy car pool buddy come along. These are exceptions but too often they do happen.
    Don't eat the yellow snow. O

  16. #56
    Registered User Pacific Tortuga's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-31-2005
    Location
    Silverado,CA.
    Age
    68
    Posts
    1,078
    Images
    38

    Default

    [quote=
    c.) There is [I]never[/i] a time that 15-year old youth members are allowed to be in leadership roles and not have adult supervision, even at a Summer Camp activity.

    NOT TRUE, our master went to bars while on outings and left the "most trusted" scout in charge. ca. circa 1969

  17. #57
    Registered User Frolicking Dinosaurs's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-25-2005
    Location
    Frolicking elsewhere
    Posts
    12,398
    Images
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jollies View Post
    I will add some of my perspective because I can claim to be an authority on this subject, being a professional Scouter, however, I think it is definitely a good idea not to judge this situation just on what we have been "fed" so far via media reports. ......It is a good idea to wait for the rest of the facts to come in ....we jump to quickly to conclusions and condemn others strictly on what we are told at the time and before we can make a well-informed decision. Hope this is helpful to the readers :-)
    Thank you for jumping in. I really found the idea that an organization would leave two 15 yo boys in charge of a large group of younger teens frightening. While I do understand the idea of allowing the older boys to lead and staying out of the way when the tough situations happen and things go wrong (until it gets to the point of being potentially dangerous), to leave 15 yos in charge overnight is just so very over the top.

    Two 15 yos should be able to handle a normal night with a group of fairly well-behaved younger kids, but not many 15 yos are going to be able to handle it when the sorts of things I would reasonably expect to happen in large groups of kids occur in the middle of the night with no adult nearby - things like an asthma attack, a cut requiring stitches, a broken bone, bloody nose, projectile vomiting, high fever, kid just plain scared too death and inconsolable.

  18. #58
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jollies View Post
    I will add some of my perspective because I can claim to be an authority on this subject, being a professional Scouter, ***

    c.) There is never a time that 15-year old youth members are allowed to be in leadership roles and not have adult supervision, even at a Summer Camp activity. ***
    Thanks, Jollies...what Council, if I may ask?

    I think that some of the confusion is that "adult supervision" does not always mean "an adult 10 feet away," but rather "in a position to minimize the risk to youth as much as possible." But at most summer camps (and many other Scout activities) youth are close, but not necessarily in sight, at every moment. When Johnny Scout walks to a building at Kumbaya Scout Camp, he has 'adult supervision' but he probably isn't leashed to an adult. This is where Johnny sometimes accidentally causes a problem, or, more rarely, does something on purpose. And sometimes he's with his Patrol Leader, who should know to "call for help" immeidately...and be able to know that adult help is able to respond just as fast.

    But we're not babysitters. You know that; I just don't want others here to think we are, either.

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  19. #59
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    [quote=Pacific Tortuga;303629]
    Quote Originally Posted by
    c.) There is [I
    never[/i] a time that 15-year old youth members are allowed to be in leadership roles and not have adult supervision, even at a Summer Camp activity.

    NOT TRUE, our master went to bars while on outings and left the "most trusted" scout in charge. ca. circa 1969
    There IS never a time when that is allowed. Whatever happened in the 60s - and much did - such a leader would be terminated immediately today.

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  20. #60
    Registered User
    Join Date
    09-04-2002
    Location
    Oriental, NC
    Age
    76
    Posts
    6,690
    Images
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    I was a leader when my two sons were scouts.. A troop leader was chosen by who could get away when the trip was scheduled, usually a minimally qualified parent. Too often I've seen spaghetti armed insurance salesman whos outdoor experience consisted of a walk to the road to get the morning paper end up leading a trip when no one else could do it. If two leaders were required the spaghetti armed insurance salesman would have his pink, puffy car pool buddy come along. These are exceptions but too often they do happen.
    Moxie:

    If that "spaghetti armed insurance salesman" was a Scout Leader at any time since about 1985, and was registered as the Scoutmaster, he probably received real training in what is required for what Scouting calls "Youth Protection," including how to recognize serious situations and call for help. And I've known a lot of men and women who had little knowledge of the outdoors, but a great love for kids and a desire to help them learn what Scouting has to offer - strong character, good citizenship, and leadership of others - and realized that their outdoor skills were weak. But I'd rather know those "puffy" guys who have time for Scouts than all the super outdoorspeople who don't have the time. They helped your sons in ways that others didn't or couldn't, and I'm sure you're actually grateful to them.

    The Weasel
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
++ New Posts ++

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •