3-season tent good enough for winter in SNP?

[Alligator]

We did the north end last Jan on a very windy weekend. I was glad to have a 4 season tent. The wind was blowing us sideways. However, the sites/shelters we stayed in had reasonable cover from the wind. So as mentioned, site selection is important.

Also, Skyline Drive was closed while we were in the park. So I recommend not using Skyline Drive for access to avoid having to deal with a closure.

The rangers were very helpful and were looking out for hikers that weekend, going out of their way to determine who was in the park and where they were parked.

Please fill out your permit as completely as possible to help the rangers out.

[Skyline]

That's something I never thought of doing, but I like it. Is it cool for an untrained trailmaintainer (aka just a hiker) such as myself to take a saw along and clear some trail if I get energetic? I'd wanted to sign up for a weekend trailcrew but my dog's health is unstable and I'm not always sure when I'll be able to get away for a long weekend and when I need to stay home. So if I could just go hike when it's convenient but still help a tiny itty bit on the trail, that'd make me really happy.

Anybody think freelance trail clearing is a bad idea? I don't want to cause more harm than good.

I don't know the OFFICIAL answer but I'll give you this to think about:

1) Most trail maintainers, hikers, PATC, and SNP would be THRILLED if you would assist in removing fallen limbs and debris from the treadway--if they only require muscles to move them. No appointment necessary.

2) There are specific rules in SNP regarding the cutting of vegetation. Maintainers are provided with these regs. You would want to contact SNP and/or PATC to learn them before cutting, and to get their feedback about whether you should even be doing this.

3) Trail damage is sometimes reported by District Managers to specific maintainers, who make room in their schedules and drive/hike great distances to reach the scene of the damage...oftentimes with friends in tow. They anticipate having to do some serious work and if they can't find the reported damage (because someone else already did it in an ad hoc manner) they sometimes will spend a long time looking for it, questioning the original report, etc. and eventually leave in frustration. I know some volunteers who would be thrilled to find the work had been done, but others who would be highly pissed under these circumstances.

4) The past few weeks on PATC's Trails Forum there have been pleas for "swampers" to help the sawyers. (A swamper is basically an unskilled manual laborer who removes what the sawyers cut from the treadway and assists elsewhere when needed.) You might inquire about the next worktrip; they have been going out most weekends but being the holiday season have had less than overflow crowds of volunteers. These trips are coordinated with the Park so even if Skyline Drive is closed where work needs to be done, arrangements are made for entrance and exit.

5) There are safety issues to be aware of--and safety equipment to wear--when you're cutting trees and large limbs. PATC can usually supply knowledge and gear if you're part of a worktrip.

6) The regs are even more strict when it comes to using a powered chainsaw. First, you need to be certified. Second, you need to be aware of and follow rules regarding the use of a chainsaw. This would leave out someone going out solo with a chainsaw to clear trail.

I'm thinking item #1 would be your best bet right now while your dog's health is a hinderance to volunteering for an organized day crew. But for others reading this, if you're near SNP please call 703-242-0315 and find out about the next worktrip(s). After the AT is cleared, SNP has hundreds of miles of side trails--some of which need a lot of work.

[Skyline]

I'm taking a three-season tent with me for a quick trip the day after Christmas, but it's also hevy-duty.

Also, there could well be some blowdowns left from the ice storm, or new blowdowns from the quick change in temps and the currently forecast rain.
According to the Blue and White Crew's database, there's a blowdown 4 minutes north of Tanner's Ridge Fire Road. (The end of my section.)

I'm packing my folding corona saw so I can be sure my section is clear. I'm also going to try to be sure it's clear down to the Bearfence Hut. If I'm feeling energetic, I'll also clear from the cemetary up to Big Meadows.

As of last Sunday (12/16) the Drive was closed south of the intersection of Skyline Drive and Rapidan Fire Rd. close to the Big Meadows Wayside.

BTW you have a well maintained section there when Mother Nature isn't messing with you!

[jlb2012]

hey Skyline - you forgot one - its against regs for a backpacker to have a saw in the backcountry

wrt to this ice storm - just pulling the broken branches off the trail would be a big help but some of them are tangled with small trees and you have to watch out for spring poles as a result. Obviously look overhead if camping or working - there are a bunch of sizeable lumber hung up in the trees that could unexpectedly come down and whack you.

[Cookerhiker]

If you plan on using Skyline Drive to reach your trailhead, be sure to call the SNP before you leave to make sure they haven't closed the road. This happens often in the winter. Also, be sure to get your backcountry permit.....

This happened to us last year. We drove to SNP in a snowstorm and the entire Skyline Drive was closed but the Park guys allowed us to park on the side of the road by the entrance station. We did have to adjust our intended route but otherwise, it was a great hike - just enough snow to be scenic but not so much to hamper us.

BTW, the Park staff was so preoccupied by the snow, they told us to go ahead without the permit. But I wouldn't count on that happening all the time.....

[Squeegee_Joe]

I don't know the OFFICIAL answer but I'll give you this to think about:

1) Most trail maintainers, hikers, PATC, and SNP would be THRILLED if you would assist in removing fallen limbs and debris from the treadway--if they only require muscles to move them. No appointment necessary.

2) There are specific rules in SNP regarding the cutting of vegetation. Maintainers are provided with these regs. You would want to contact SNP and/or PATC to learn them before cutting, and to get their feedback about whether you should even be doing this.

That's about what I'd say, too.

Now it looks like my official plan for this trip is to be a "swamper" for a sawyer going through, assuming I can arrange timing with the sawyer.

[Skyline]

hey Skyline - you forgot one - its against regs for a backpacker to have a saw in the backcountry

wrt to this ice storm - just pulling the broken branches off the trail would be a big help but some of them are tangled with small trees and you have to watch out for spring poles as a result. Obviously look overhead if camping or working - there are a bunch of sizeable lumber hung up in the trees that could unexpectedly come down and whack you.

I did not know that was a rule. I know of more than a few backpackers who carry small lightweight saws--like the half-pound Gerber--with them in the Park. I don't recall that rule being on the permit or the handout they supply with permits. Where is it written so that backpackers would see it?

Good advice re: the entanglements.

[jlb2012]

I did not know that was a rule. I know of more than a few backpackers who carry small lightweight saws--like the half-pound Gerber--with them in the Park. I don't recall that rule being on the permit or the handout they supply with permits. Where is it written so that backpackers would see it?

Good advice re: the entanglements.

Its on the third page of the handout that goes with the permit and is distributed in the same box as the permits. See http://www.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisi...g_brochure.pdf for an online copy of that handout - basically it says no glass bottles, no axes and no saws.

[Skyline]

Its on the third page of the handout that goes with the permit and is distributed in the same box as the permits. See http://www.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisi...g_brochure.pdf for an online copy of that handout - basically it says no glass bottles, no axes and no saws.

Well there's the answer. It's clearly identified as a "Travel Tip." It's not a regulation. You wrote: "hey Skyline - you forgot one - its against regs for a backpacker to have a saw in the backcountry."

Anyway, the kind of lightweight saws I've seen backpackers carry are good for cutting small limbs--not whole trees or even major branches of trees. Only a gluton for punishment would carry something bigger and heavier.

[jlb2012]

dang and all this time I thought the "no glass in the backcountry" was a reg.

yep - that's me carrying that 21 inch Corona Pro plus hammer and wedge - definately a gluton for punishment - good thing I don't do that too much anymore at least not in SNP

[1Pint]

I don't know the OFFICIAL answer but I'll give you this to think about:
......

I'm thinking item #1 would be your best bet right now while your dog's health is a hinderance to volunteering for an organized day crew. But for others reading this, if you're near SNP please call 703-242-0315 and find out about the next worktrip(s). After the AT is cleared, SNP has hundreds of miles of side trails--some of which need a lot of work.

Hi All. Thanks for your feedback and thoughtfull responses. Especially you Skyline! I think I'll see when I can hit the trail and just do what I can while hiking to make a small difference (suggestion #1). And once my dog's medicine is stable, then I'll try to join a weekend crew as a swamper.

Happy winter hiking everyone!
Laura

[Skyline]

dang and all this time I thought the "no glass in the backcountry" was a reg.

yep - that's me carrying that 21 inch Corona Pro plus hammer and wedge - definately a gluton for punishment - good thing I don't do that too much anymore at least not in SNP

Before the current regs went into effect in Y2K, the glass prohibition WAS a reg--along with a bunch of other inconsistent stuff.

And you just keep carrying whatever you want. I'll never forget that bushwack in Nov. '05 when you cut us out of that greenbrier "cemetery." Would you believe I STILL have a scar where I fell and tore a gash in my leg further down the "trail."

[vipahman]

A 3-season tent is good enough as long as you don't expect a serious winter storm. Your enemies are lots of wind, snow, ice. Wind might not be an issue in a sheltered site. 6"+ of snow and your tent might not take the weight. Of course, you could do some overnight maintenance and work around that. Ice could be harder to deal with.

[jlb2012]

And you just keep carrying whatever you want. I'll never forget that bushwack in Nov. '05 when you cut us out of that greenbrier "cemetery." Would you believe I STILL have a scar where I fell and tore a gash in my leg further down the "trail."

that was a tough bushwhack alright - I think I still have blood stains on the shirt I used that day - if I ever try something like that again I'll be buying some chainsaw chaps for the legs and wearing a thick fleece for the arms - and bringing a pair of loppers

[Toolshed]

The old controversial topic of using a vapor barrier in your sleeping bag is something you might explore. That can start a heated discussion around the old camp fire like asking about the best stove.

I am a proponent of VBL's in bitter cold - Though I don't think they work well above 20F. I think they are a necessity if you are out for more than a few nights in subzero cold. (My winters were centered in the ADK's, but now where I live in PA, we don't really have what I consider "winter" - Extended periods of sub-zero weather with significant snowfalls and blizzard winds.