Guns On The Trail

[Former Admin]

Most of us know theres no need to carry a gun for safety on the trail, however newcomers to the trail might be interested in understanding this better.

Comments, concerns, issues, experiences, etc .........

[SGT Rock]

A gun is not needed on the AT at all!

I'm not a anti gun freak, in fact I'm an advocate of legal gun ownership. I own two pistols, two rifles, and one shotgun. I hunt (well I have, but not in a while), target shoot, and carry firearms as a part of my job. I've done that since I was ten, and have been actually working with weapons as a profession over 17 years. As an NCO in the Army in a direct ground combat specialty I understand very well the safety needs of a weapon, the responsibilities of carrying a loaded weapon, and what it really takes to have the correct mental attitude to use deadly force.

But I think that a lot of people that are potential gun carriers have not thought about, or realize the real consequences of carrying a gun.

First thing you should consider is the legality. Carrying a concealed weapon is almost universally illegal. You could carry a pistol in a holster on your hip, but no one will be interested in being close to you, and then the potential attacker also knows you are packing and can take steps to prevent you gun use. But carrying a gun is also illegal in many parks you must cross. AND, some states like NJ will take your gun and lock you up if you transport firearms through the state without the proper documents.

Next is the legality of shooting someone - it isn't. Sure you may claim self defense, but that means you must stop everything you are doing with your hike and your life to go through the process of police reports, investigation, possibly going to court for bail and time in jail while they sort it out, maybe a trial or at least grand jury (Weasel would know the ins and outs better). AND you may not have anyone to back up your story against the local boy. Also remember they guy in Louisiana about 10 or so years ago that shot the Japanese exchange student because he thought the guy was trying to break into his house, but the student just wanted to borrow a phone after his car broke down - my point is you may kill some innocent person thinking you are in danger when you really aren't. HOW COULD YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF AFTER THAT!?! I will talk about this again.

How about the weight? Even a light gun with ammo weighs about a pound and that is useless weight. How about maintenance? Guns require cleaning and lubrication. Mud, sand, and water aren't good for them; guess what there is a lot of on the trail.

How about training? Most people can point and shoot, some can even shoot well at cans. But in a real gunfight even professionals have a hard time hitting anything. Remember that video of the two sheriffs having a gun fight about 5' from a couple of white separatists when they pulled them over? Over 30 shots fired at close range from professional police and NOT ONE SINGLE HIT! Can you look someone in the face and actually pull the trigger? What will you do after shooting them and the blood is everywhere and this human being is pleading for their life after you shot them? People don't always drop like in the movies, and it is a bloody mess. Will you let them die in front of you? If you will, you're sick. If you do the right thing, imagine how much of a problem and a responsibility it is to treat a gunshot person, especially when they are bleeding out and their backside looks like raw hamburger.

A responsible gun user must always carry their gun on them. To let it out of your possession means anyone else can get it. And for defense, it must always be ready, and always be very accessible. If you plan to put it inside your pack neither requirement is met, so there is no usefulness in the weapon. If you are always carrying it, then how? They do make holster/waist belts that look like a normal waist belt, but after carrying it 24/7 for a month will you feel safe or burdened? What will you do when showering in a hostel? Or swimming in a creek? People will catch on, then you may have problems.

I mention this before about shooting someone innocent accidentally, but I think I must cover this from experience. When you are in the defensive mode, every other person you meet, and I mean EVERY OTHER PERSON, must be considered a potential threat or otherwise you loose the defensive edge. Now imagine meeting 10-20 people a day on the trail. That is a lot of decision making about weather or not to pull pistols! Now multiply that by a 6 month hike - 1,800 to 3,600 possibilities of shooting an innocent person - and that is just on the trail! What I found was that everyone that was the lest bit suspicious caused me to go into the defensive mode and think about all the possibilities and options of a fight - not my hike. And in a three day period that was a lot of non-hike enjoyment time. I would see a guy in denim and sunglasses while I was carrying and see a potential hillside strangler, but without the gun he was a funny looking tourist. Either way I didn't need the gun, but with the gun I was focused on defending from a possible threat (which was false) while without the gun I shrugged it off and had fun.

SO consider the actual threat. In 74 years (I think that is right) of the trail, there have been less than 10 murders. Now think of the length of the AT, and some of the areas it passes through or near and their crime rates. Think of the number of people on the trail every year and imagine a city with that population. A city with the same size/population of the Appalachian Trail would most likely have a lot more than 10 murders in 74 years. So you have a safer time on the trail than you do in your own home town if you look at it that way.

Wildlife? Do you really think you can kill a bear with your snub nosed .38? And if you plan on doing that, well WHY?

So why carry a pistol? I figure it is an unnatural fear of what is in the woods, or an anachronistic thought process that thinks wilderness=danger and gun=safety. Well the formula that says that is a hundred years out of date. Small women hikers can go the entire length of the At without killing anyone, why can't big macho guys get by without one?

Wow, a longer rant than normall, and I don't think I hit all the aspects of why a gun isn't needed.

[highway]

The lopsided response elicited by this single topic is amazing in that it seems to bring out mostly the extremists on each side of the issue. I think that, other than those few extremists on the periphery, most hikers are ambivalent and care little what you bring. Personally, I really don’t feel we should be so quick to judge just another piece of backpacking gear that some might choose to either bring or not, like hiking poles. I don’t think either is really necessary in the wilderness. Guns are heavy to carry but I don’t presume to have the right to tell you not to carry one. I am terribly offended, though, walking along a beautiful narrow trail, seeing millions of tiny little holes alongside my path planted by the hikers using hiking poles that have gone before me. I had much rather see just the trail, the trodden path without those distracting holes and I have often wondered about the ecological damage being done by them. But just because I am offended by those holes, (LNT?) and am concerned that they are enlarging the pathway, does not give me the right to insist that you not use them.

And I want. Now I wonder how many of those hikers with poles carried some firearm that I saw no evidence of? At least hiking poles in the hiker’s hands have affected the AT much more than firearms in those hands have. How does that apt phrase go, “hike your own hike but don’t force others to hike yours”? Anyway, more than half those killed on the AT were stabbed, not shot and the only murder I found that was committed by another hiker used a hatchet for the deed. Now I don’t think any of us really need to bring a hatchet, do we?

[Easyhiker]

I might have started this thread, but there are exceptions to this.

For one if your threatened by someone of influence in a big city you might want to carry a gun on the trail because they'll find you and its their perfect oppurtunity while your hiking if they find you. This is where a glock pocket rocket comes in handy.

So if I your life is threatened off the trail (by a real threat) you might think about carrying a weapon on the trail. However if your just carrying it because your afraid of whats out there on the trail you won't need it.

[Lone Wolf]

I'll carry concealed. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

[Bandana Man]

This is kind of changing the topic, but instead of carrying a gun, why not carry a cannister of bear spray? It's legal in all federal parks whereas guns are prohibited. Bear spray isn't lethal. And it works on bears as well as human predators. I carried a cannister in the Grand Tetons after being strongly advised by park rangers. Didn't need it -- didn't see one bear, dang it -- but IMO it's better to carry something that can save your life and not need it, than to need something that can save your life and not carry it. BTW, obviously I'm not really into this go-lite stuff!

[SGT Rock]

Actually I think in the convoluded leagal and moral system of our country you might get your ass sued off for using bear spray on a human.

[Easyhiker]

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[Waterbuffalo]

Like Lone Wolf I also carry conceled in my daily life but not on the trail since there is no need. Something I do carry with me that is better than bear spray is a titanium ASP Baton which has a nice little caring case and fits on my hip belt. It is carried by law enforcement and is really nothing more than a retractable lightweight metal billy club. If you get one make sure you learn how to use it just like a gun only only do you good if you know how to use it. I haven't ever had to use it but if I had to take care of an angry Bear , Hog or pervert picking up hitchhikers I know I could use it.

You can get them at www.galls.com

[Connie]

I am not on the AT.

I think I will carry my Counter Assault bear spray, for a "bad bear". This brand bear spray is legal here and in Canada.

I "spritzed" the bear spray, as recommended on the label, to see how far it shoots out. Only a small "whiff" got on me. I was totally incapacitated 20 minutes !

The park officials recommend drop face down, covering your neck with your arms, and spray at the last moment.

But, out here in Montana, practically everyone that lives here carries a gun on the trail ..just not in the national park.

I purchased my 41 magnum "last resort" handgun after seeing a grizzley bear that was, actually magnificent, and absolutely huge, even for around here.

Happily, he was not interested in me. He stood downwind, in a creek, allowing me and the horses to pass. At the moment, we were closest, he said "WoooF".

But we have "bad bears" transported by the forest service and the park service to "deeper backcountry". I regard any bear interested in backpacker food, a "bad bear". Any grizzley as close as 30 yards, is real danger.

The bear experiences I have had, however, have been "good bear" experiences.

It is a huge fine, if you do shoot a bear, so the bear had better fall on you to prove it really was self defense.

[smokymtnsteve]

Actually I think in the convoluted legal and moral system of our country you might get your ass sued off for using bear spray on a human.

Isn't America great!

[Surplusman]

I have used firearms since I was a kid and I have had a lot of formal training. But carrying a roscoe on the AT? No...never.

[warraghiyagey]

A gun is not needed on the AT at all!

I have used firearms since I was a kid and I have had a lot of formal training. But carrying a roscoe on the AT? No...never.

Agreed. . . !!!!!

[Engine]

Just look at what has happened recently between Spike and the Mad Kiwis. What might have happened had that escalated with firearms involved? I am pro gun and own more than a few, but some places just don't call for it and I would like to think the AT is one of them. Innocent people could easily end up hurt or killed by thoughtless use of a firearm, even among trained individuals as Sgt Rock pointed out.

I responded to a call years ago when a local LEO was involved in a close range shooting with a distraught mental patient. The LEO emptied a 15 round clip of 9mm while taking fire from a bolt action .243 at maybe 15 feet. Maybe 20 shots fired in all and neither party hit, but lots of damage to storefronts in the parking lot. After seeing what happened I thought the safest place to stand would have been right between them.

[warraghiyagey]

[Engine]

I can has cheeseburger?

[warraghiyagey]

I can has cheeseburger?

Yupperrdoodle!!

[CowHead]

i only carrie a knife and it's for spreading peanut butter

[KMACK]

As a LEO I have had a weapon on my side for the last 16+ years. Its a part of my life and I dont leave home w/out it. That said I have mixed emotions about this issue.

[Phoenixdadeadhead]

Connie you mentioned Montana, which is one of my favorite places I have lived so far, and you are right everyone there has a gun. It is so bad there, that I was at work and a coworker said "you can make an AR15 fully auto by filing down the fire pin", our supervisor heard the convo, and said "Nope, lemme show you", he proceded to take us out to his car opened the trunk, removed some parts from his AR15 and replaced them with others, and said "That's how you make an AR15 full auto". With gun nuts like that making up most of the population of Montana, many would think the crimes involving guns would be high, and you would be wrong.
There is something comfortable about everyone having a gun, and looking for a reason to use it.
On the trail though, it is pretty much illegal, and unneeded. I am not sure about cap and ball legallity since many of the laws pertaining to fire arms do not apply, but I have thought many times about carrying a navy colt on the trail, but then the powder, balls and grease, would get kinda heavy after a while.