GSMNP AT-thru Hiker Permit Fee to Double in 2023

[HooKooDooKu]

The Great Smoky Mountains National Park is looking to make some serious changes in their fees... the biggest one being a new "parking" fee.
But for AT Thru-hikers, the new fee schedule looks to double the cost of the AT Thru-Hiker permit from $20 to $40 starting in the 2023 season.
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvis...e-proposal.htm

[illabelle]

You beat me to it. I got interrupted before I could finish my post.

[KnightErrant]

Most national parks charge $20-$35 to enter anyway. $40 to spend 5-6 days camping there on a thru hike seems reasonable to me, when you consider the cost that thru-hikers create for the park in terms of trail/shelter maintenance, bear management, etc. Thru-hikers are a tiny fraction of park visitors, but we spend a long time there. Hopefully they'll use the money to build some privies at the shelters-- all the lazy cat hole digging out there makes for a tp flower garden-- gross!

[LazyLightning]

the worst thing about the smokies to me was the lack of cat hole digging. I think a lot of it is from when there is snow but still a lot of lazy people all around. I made sure to Never get water near a shelter.

[HooKooDooKu]

Most national parks charge $20-$35 to enter anyway. $40 to spend 5-6 days camping there on a thru hike seems reasonable to me, when you consider the cost that thru-hikers create for the park in terms of trail/shelter maintenance, bear management, etc. Thru-hikers are a tiny fraction of park visitors, but we spend a long time there. Hopefully they'll use the money to build some privies at the shelters-- all the lazy cat hole digging out there makes for a tp flower garden-- gross!

About half the shelters have privies... but yeah, it would be nice to see privies at all the shelters. But keep in mind, it takes more than just the funds to build the privies, they have to be maintained. As one of three spots fills up, the seat has to move to the next spot. Once the privy has composted, the compost has to be spread out in the woods.

[illabelle]

Most national parks charge $20-$35 to enter anyway. $40 to spend 5-6 days camping there on a thru hike seems reasonable to me, when you consider the cost that thru-hikers create for the park in terms of trail/shelter maintenance, bear management, etc. Thru-hikers are a tiny fraction of park visitors, but we spend a long time there. Hopefully they'll use the money to build some privies at the shelters-- all the lazy cat hole digging out there makes for a tp flower garden-- gross!

I was under the impression that trail/shelter/privy maintenance is done primarily by volunteers with funds from non-park sources. Am I misinformed?

[Venchka]

Some of us Geezers get free entrance to National Parks.
A Backcountry Permit for 4 nights (could have been more nights, same price) in Grand Teton National Park cost $35 last year.
I reckon that the Tetons are significantly more bang for your Buck.
Have fun Y’all!
Wayne

[HooKooDooKu]

I was under the impression that trail/shelter/privy maintenance is done primarily by volunteers with funds from non-park sources. Am I misinformed?

1. Over the long term, you can't count on "volunteers" to always perform what is essential maintenance.
2. I don't know about all the details in GSMNP... it's a large and complex system. I do know that NC has volunteers that adopt campsites and try to help keep them clean. I also know (or was at least once told by a ridge runner) that during the thru-hiker season, there are two ridge runners paid to patrol the AT in GSMNP (which then drops to 1 after the AT thru hiker season) and that they do privy maintenance. Not sure if they are the only ones that do privy maintenance.
3. Add to that the routine trail maintenance. The park service has paid trail maintenance crews, I've seen them busy at work in the back country. But the park is so large and so underfunded that there are volunteer groups that also do trail maintenance and rehabilitation work.

It all points to an under funded park, especially with the droves that have been showing up since the start of Covid.

[ken209]

I can remember when shelter permits were free it was hard to get some of the popular shelters some of hikers would get the maximum & not use them. When they started charging four bucks a night all that changed, most of the time I had no problem getting a permit.

[rmitchell]

I was under the impression that trail/shelter/privy maintenance is done primarily by volunteers with funds from non-park sources. Am I misinformed?

You are mostly correct. Volunteers from the Smoky Mountains Hiking Club built the privies. Mulch is packed in by SMHC volunteers and by horsemen from one or more of the equestrian clubs to the more remote locations. Mulch is provided by the park service from downed trees that are ground up. (It has to be local to the park for environment reasons). Moving the head and emptying the waste is usually done by the ridgerunners who are funded by the ATC.
I have helped to empty and spread the composed waste. That is a whole story in itself

[PatmanTN]

One interesting comment from a Knox News Sentinel article was a quote from Park Spokesperson Dana Soehn who said “Collectively, the people of North Carolina and Tennessee have carried the weight but now it’s time to call on the people across the U.S.,” .

Well, as someone who lives a half hour from a park trail head and hikes there several times a month, I guess I'll still be "carrying the weight" since the $40 annual tag will make the most sense for me. lol

[HooKooDooKu]

One interesting comment from a Knox News Sentinel article was a quote from Park Spokesperson Dana Soehn who said “Collectively, the people of North Carolina and Tennessee have carried the weight but now it’s time to call on the people across the U.S.,” .

Well, as someone who lives a half hour from a park trail head and hikes there several times a month, I guess I'll still be "carrying the weight" since the $40 annual tag will make the most sense for me. lol

As someone who lives many hours away from the park but visits several times a year, I too zeroed in on the $40 annual tag as being pretty dang cheap.
A typical trip for me involves to nights in the back country. So that's 3 "days" I need a parking tag. 3 trips like that a year and annual tag pays for itself compared to the $5 daily fee.

But dang, now that I think this thru, GSMNP is going to be getting expensive.
If I take three 2-night trips to GSMNP in 2023, I'm most likely going to be taking my son along, and back country fees are PER PERSON
So that's $32/trip in back country fees, or $96 + $40 in parking fees: $136

I'm going to be pissed if I have to start paying that much to camp in the back country if I don't see some sort of positive change in a few years (better trail maintenance... beyond clearing downed trees and over grown brush, but more importantly, I want to see more rangers in the back country ENFORCING the rules).

[HooKooDooKu]

One interesting comment from a Knox News Sentinel article was a quote from Park Spokesperson Dana Soehn who said “Collectively, the people of North Carolina and Tennessee have carried the weight but now it’s time to call on the people across the U.S.,” .

Well, as someone who lives a half hour from a park trail head and hikes there several times a month, I guess I'll still be "carrying the weight" since the $40 annual tag will make the most sense for me. lol

As someone who lives many hours away from the park but visits several times a year, I too zeroed in on the $40 annual tag as being pretty dang cheap.
A typical trip for me involves to nights in the back country. So that's 3 "days" I need a parking tag. 3 trips like that a year and annual tag pays for itself compared to the $5 daily fee.

But dang, now that I think this thru, GSMNP is going to be getting expensive.
If I take three 2-night trips to GSMNP in 2023, I'm most likely going to be taking my son along, and back country fees are PER PERSON
So that's $32/trip in back country fees, or $96 + $40 in parking fees: $136

I'm going to be pissed if I have to start paying that much to camp in the back country if I don't see some sort of positive change in a few years (better trail maintenance... beyond clearing downed trees and over grown brush, but more importantly, I want to see more rangers in the back country ENFORCING the rules).

[illabelle]

So that's $32/trip in back country fees, or $96 + $40 in parking fees: $136

Better add in a few bucks for parking fines for parking alongside the road because the parking lot is full, and that's your only option to access the backcountry site that you paid for.

God forbid if they start towing cars from the side of the road. What is a person supposed to do if they get off the trail in a remote location and their car isn't there? Hopefully they have enough sense to not leave people stranded.

-----------

Something that might help with the backcountry fee structure is if they charge a flat rate for an annual backcountry pass. Pay $50 (or whatever seems reasonable) and have unlimited use of backcountry sites.

Still need a reservation to prevent overcrowding.

[HooKooDooKu]

Better add in a few bucks for parking fines for parking alongside the road because the parking lot is full, and that's your only option to access the backcountry site that you paid for.
God forbid if they start towing cars from the side of the road. What is a person supposed to do if they get off the trail in a remote location and their car isn't there? Hopefully they have enough sense to not leave people stranded.

Parking at the trailhead is already an issue. Usually (but not always) I can find what I consider a legal parking spot at the trailhead... either because the trail head I'm going to isn't more popular than the number of spaces at the trailhead, or because I try to go early enough if I know parking might be tight. Only one that comes to mind that's really been difficult is Cataloochee Divide. Nice trail, but only about two legit parking spots at the trailhead. Last time I hiked that trail, I had to continue down the gravel road and park at a spot where the road was extra wide along a strait section. I was out of the way, but not sure that would be considered legal parking under what ever new system the put in.

Something that might help with the backcountry fee structure is if they charge a flat rate for an annual backcountry pass. Pay $50 (or whatever seems reasonable) and have unlimited use of backcountry sites.
Still need a reservation to prevent overcrowding.

While I like your idea, I don't see it happening.
The single biggest complain I had at the time when the back country fees were introduced was the fact I could possibly pay MORE to camp in the back country than the front country.
At the time, depending upon the season, a front country campsite could be had for as little as $14. But if I took my family of 4 in the back country, the fee was $16. Given the amenities afforded at front country campsite compared to what you get at a back country campsite, the cost structure seemed rediculous.

But as someone pointed out earlier, when they initiated the $/person back country fee, the cases of one person reserving more spots than they actually planned to utilize dropped dramatically. And given that other national parks will charge a per person per night back country fee, I don't expect the $8/person/night fee structure to change.

[PatmanTN]

As someone who lives many hours away from the park but visits several times a year, I too zeroed in on the $40 annual tag as being pretty dang cheap.
A typical trip for me involves to nights in the back country. So that's 3 "days" I need a parking tag. 3 trips like that a year and annual tag pays for itself compared to the $5 daily fee.

But dang, now that I think this thru, GSMNP is going to be getting expensive.
If I take three 2-night trips to GSMNP in 2023, I'm most likely going to be taking my son along, and back country fees are PER PERSON
So that's $32/trip in back country fees, or $96 + $40 in parking fees: $136

I'm going to be pissed if I have to start paying that much to camp in the back country if I don't see some sort of positive change in a few years (better trail maintenance... beyond clearing downed trees and over grown brush, but more importantly, I want to see more rangers in the back country ENFORCING the rules).

They say we should see some of that:
"Once implemented, the new and increased fees are expected to generate about $14 million annually. All revenue generated through the user fees would remain in the Smokies to support operational costs for managing and improving services for visitors including trail maintenance, custodial services, trash removal and supporting more law enforcement staffing across the park, park officials said. "

[soilman]

You are mostly correct. Volunteers from the Smoky Mountains Hiking Club built the privies. Mulch is packed in by SMHC volunteers and by horsemen from one or more of the equestrian clubs to the more remote locations. Mulch is provided by the park service from downed trees that are ground up. (It has to be local to the park for environment reasons). Moving the head and emptying the waste is usually done by the ridgerunners who are funded by the ATC.
I have helped to empty and spread the composed waste. That is a whole story in itself

I was part of an ATC Rocky Top trail crew that built a composting privy at Double Springs Gap shelter and a bunch of sidehill trail near Birch Springs many years ago. The Rocky Top and SWEAT crews work exclusively in GSMNP doing trail work.

[Mockernut]

when GSMNP implemented the backcountry fees, they claimed the fees would only go to maintaining the reservation system and the rangers to enforce it. I was involved in the comment process and have that on record. Now it seems that these fess will pay for much more...we said at the time this would creep up and here it is. I was 400 miles into doing all 900 miles of trail. I refuse to go back on overnight trips as I have 4 kids so 6 of us got really expensive in the backcountry. I can stay in a campground and day hike instead. So many great trails outside the park in TN and NC to backpack, no need to go there.

[Venchka]

HooKooDooKu:
Have you looked into the Mt. Rogers Recreational Area?
I don’t know what fees, if any, are imposed.
I’m going to start visiting that area soon.
Wayne

[HooKooDooKu]

HooKooDooKu:
Have you looked into the Mt. Rogers Recreational Area?
I don’t know what fees, if any, are imposed.
I’m going to start visiting that area soon.
Wayne

I mostly hike in GSMNP, and I've gotten to be goal oriented.
First I worked on joining the 900 Miler Club. When I finished, my son had been on enough trips with me that he was half way to the 900 Miler Club himself. So we started working on the goal of getting him into the 900 Miler Club. When he joined last year, it turned out I was three-quarters of the way to finishing a 2nd map. So now I'm working on what's known as a 2X. I just can't seem to get out of GSMNP.