What stove to use on the Appalachian Trail

[cmoulder]

What makes you think it's a gimmick?

I've used both Minimo (regulated) and Flash (non-regulated) extensively in those ambient temps and flame settings where the regulator is claimed to help. I never noticed more than a teensy-weensy bit of difference, and once the canister cooled a bit even that little 'advantage' went poof!

As usual, the JB claim is steady output as the temperature drops, and, as I say, there's nothing to regulate without adequate pressure.

My observations led me to the simple conclusion "They work in a very small temperature range, above which they aren't needed and below which they don't work." Not even the great Roger Caffin has disputed that.

In fact, here's Caffin's take on it.

[HooKooDooKu]

I've used both Minimo (regulated) and Flash (non-regulated) extensively in those ambient temps and flame settings where the regulator is claimed to help. I never noticed more than a teensy-weensy bit of difference, and once the canister cooled a bit even that little 'advantage' went poof!

As usual, the JB claim is steady output as the temperature drops, and, as I say, there's nothing to regulate without adequate pressure.

My observations led me to the simple conclusion "They work in a very small temperature range, above which they aren't needed and below which they don't work." Not even the great Roger Caffin has disputed that.

In fact, here's Caffin's take on it.

Other than the synopsis, it's behind a pay wall

[cmoulder]

Other than the synopsis, it's behind a pay wall

Yep, welcome to BPL.

Hey, when you own the sandbox... Not sure if the basic membership unlocks the articles.

[cmoulder]

https://www.msrgear.com/blog/technol...gulators-work/

Here's their chart:



What's missing? AMBIENT TEMPERATURE, FUEL MIX, FUEL LEVEL, OUTPUT LEVEL If TEMP were inserted where TIME appears in the chart, we'd see all the performance lines scrunched into a very small area around 20°F. This is an example of how data can be manipulated to show whatever you want it to show.

What started me on the whole quest to understand and improve cold-weather canister stove performance was my experience with the Reactor. It was touted as a great winter stove. So I bought one and the first time I used it the temp was 5°F and was sorely disappointed to find it didn't work any better than my Snow Peak Giga... barely eeked out enough warm water for morning coffee. It didn't take long to figure out that the issue is not regulating output but keeping the canister warm enough to vaporize the fuel.

[zelph]

Roger and BPL are all about CLICK BAIT CLICK BAIT CLICK BAIT

Screenshot 2022-04-15 9.06.20 AM.png

[zelph]

https://www.msrgear.com/blog/technol...gulators-work/

I quote from cmoulder link:

(quote)
When the temp drops to 50°F, canister pressure drops to 30 psi. As you run your stove, your canister cools further, easily dropping to 22 psi. And on that cool fall morning (40°F), your stove may only be putting out less than 60% of its power.

In contrast, MSR’s pressure-regulated stoves are designed to run at full output at just 15 psi (Reactor) and 16.5 psi (WindBurner and PocketRocket Deluxe). The regulator ensures the stove receives that precise pressure regardless of the real pressure inside the canister.

It’s only when your canister is nearly empty or the conditions are extremely cold that the pressure will finally drop below the limit of the pressure regulator and you’ll notice a performance drop.


HOW PRESSURE REGULATORS IMPROVE CANISTER STOVE BOIL TIMES

Most backpacking stoves aren’t pressure-regulated. So as their canister pressure drops, their output also declines. A stove with a regulator, in contrast, isn’t hindered by that drop in canister pressure (remember it’s designed to operate optimally at a very low pressure and the regulator maintains that pressure). Because of this, you enjoy fast boil times regardless of what’s happening to the canister.

In other words, the regulator keeps your stove cranking at full output across a wider range of conditions and scenarios—hot days, colder days, full canister, low canister and everything in between.

It also means that when your canister is low, the stove isn’t struggling. This saves you fuel. Therefore, a pressure regulator also boosts the efficiency of your stove, which means you can carry less fuel.

[cmoulder]

The thing is, maintaining vapor pressure in the canister renders all of that—and more—moot.

What is "more"? Specifically fuel mix and fuel level. Some of these manufacturers have "winter," "all-season" and "summer" formulations with various percentages of propane and isobutane, and sometimes N-butane for the "summer" blends. Jetboil has even claimed that their formula is a special proprietary blend. They all come in a range of 20-30% propane and 70-80% isobutane, with N-butane substituted for some of the isobutane in the "summer" blend.

What a hoot. After the propane burns off and the canister is down to about 50-60%, they're all about the same.

Just about anybody you talk to with a modicum of stove savvy will tell you that N-butane will not work in the winter. I use it all the time, just this past January in the Adirondacks at -15°F.

Keep the canister warm enough and the rest is unalloyed marketing foof.

Don't keep the canister warm enough and they all stop working.

[zelph]

cmoulder, I'm reminded of what you said....."It's a gimmick"


It's not a gimmick, they told you (us) what the stove is capable of at low temperatures.

I have a "Reactor" and I'm well pleased with it. I use 70% propane canisters with it to melt snow and cook with it. I use a remote feed set-up.

I introduced to BPL viewers canisters of 70% propane for low winter temperatures. Are people using them???? No reports at all this past winter. Nobody listens

The "regulators" in the Reactor type stoves work!!!


(Edit to show Reactor)
Reactor in a simmer mode using remote feed:

Screenshot 2022-04-15 2.09.35 PM.png

[cmoulder]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the gimmick part.

BUT, if it worked as advertised you wouldn't need 70% propane. (vapor temp -44°F) That is a very nice mod you came up with for running propane.

However, it's true that 91.42% of people think canister stoves are no good for very/extreme cold.

[JNI64]

Its not your minimo or the size of your pocket rocket it's how you use it

[zelph]

BUT, if it worked as advertised you wouldn't need 70% propane.

This is what they advertise:

(quote)

It’s only when your canister is nearly empty or the conditions are extremely cold that the pressure will finally drop below the limit of the pressure regulator and you’ll notice a performance drop.

[zelph]

Its not your minimo or the size of your pocket rocket it's how you use it

Too many times it's "Operator Error" and then the blame goes onto the Mfr.

https://www.msrgear.com/blog/technol...gulators-work/

[cmoulder]

To me 20 degrees is not extreme cold. And quite frankly they don't mention evaporative cooling which actually raises the minimum temperature quite a bit. Some people are surprised to notice performance diminishing at 40 degrees. Recall the ice that can develop on an almost-empty canister even with ambient temps in the 80s!

As I mentioned before, I'm not saying regulators don't work, but that the useful temp range is so small (with typical commercial canisters... not your 70% propane) as to be practically useless. BUT it could be that many people use them quite a bit in the 40-50 temp range and find it helpful. However, in any event these are not ideal systems for actual cooking and simmering.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[zelph]

As I mentioned before, I'm not saying regulators don't work, but that the useful temp range is so small (with typical commercial canisters... not your 70% propane) as to be practically useless.

Let's put aside the temperature range thing.....and think about the jet speed in which they heat our water Long Live the Jetboils!!!!

[JNI64]

Crazy thought, what if jet boil put the same heat exchanger fins around the bottom of the cup as well ? Damn thing would be turbo charged!!!!!
Long Live the jetboils!!!!!

[zelph]

A good stove for -31 degrees is an alcohol stove. Shug has been using one for many years. In this recent video he shows the stove in use:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbiWJV3JSwM

[JNI64]

A good stove for -31 degrees is an alcohol stove. Shug has been using one for many years. In this recent video he shows the stove in use:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbiWJV3JSwM

Reminds me of an AA saying "Kiss" means keep it simple stupid.
It also means kinda ingenious shugs system!!

[cmoulder]

Let's put aside the temperature range thing.....and think about the jet speed in which they heat our water Long Live the Jetboils!!!!

Ha, well I can boil 2 cups of water in 4 minutes with alcohol, so we've come a long way since the old days when it took 8 minutes.

At one point I was boiling 3 cups with the Open Country 3-cup pot (a rare classic that is no longer available) and it took 11 minutes or so, during which time I could do other camp chores. No more. Water boils so fast that I can barely get the food packages and cozy prepped for incoming hot!

[zelph]

Yes, good ole multipurpose alcohol.

This Toaks is a "speedster".....Screenshot 2022-04-16 7.12.26 AM.png

[Kaptainkriz]

Turn that one upside down and the bottom is dished and holds esbit nicely...

Yes, good ole multipurpose alcohol.

This Toaks is a "speedster".....Screenshot 2022-04-16 7.12.26 AM.png