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  1. #1
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    Default Q about working with titanium foil

    I have ordered some titanium foil to make a windscreen for my alcohol stove. I have used Aluminum flashing to make many windscreens but though t I would try making a Ti version for fun. I have have always used the method where you fold a tab over on both ends, than then hook the overlapping tabs together to form a cylinder, as seen on the first image from this page of the Zenstoves site:

    http://zenstoves.net/PotStands-WindscreenStands.htm

    With aluminum, you have to put a spacer under the tab when you fold it over to keep the bend from being to sharp and snapping the metal. My question is if titanium will work the same way or will there be some trick to working with it that is different from aluminum? TIA for any tips.

    OMO

  2. #2

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    I've never worked with titanium but with the cost of it, I'd use a spacer to be on the safe side. I'm messing with aluminum tomorrow to make a few "caldera cone" type setups. If I make a winner, I think I'll order some titanium.

  3. #3
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    I now have an answer to my question which I will post in case it helps someone in the future. My Ti windscreen came in the mail the other day. Folding Ti is like folding paper. I did not have the problem of the metal snapping when creased like Al flashing can. I cut it with ordinary scissors. The edges were not uncomfortably sharp.

    However, it did not work for my application. In my system, the windscreen doubles as the the pot stand and the Ti foil is too flimsy for that application. However I did learn something useful. The windscreen I've been using has 44 intake holes (punched with a paper punch - 1/4" I think). The Ti screen I made had the same size holes, but only 14 of them. In a performance test with my eCHS stove and Olicamp XTS pot and my old screen, I boiled 2 cups of 70 deg water in 3:50 using 15 mL methanol. Flame went out at 4:20 so I calculate the boil used 13.3 mL of fuel. However repeating this test with the new windscreen the water failed to boil (reached 190 F in 4:00 min). It would seem that with just 14 holes, my stove is oxygen starved. I've made a new aluminum screen with no holes and will keep punching more holes until I find the sweet spot WRT air intake.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    I now have an answer to my question which I will post in case it helps someone in the future. My Ti windscreen came in the mail the other day. Folding Ti is like folding paper. I did not have the problem of the metal snapping when creased like Al flashing can. I cut it with ordinary scissors. The edges were not uncomfortably sharp.

    However, it did not work for my application. In my system, the windscreen doubles as the the pot stand and the Ti foil is too flimsy for that application. However I did learn something useful. The windscreen I've been using has 44 intake holes (punched with a paper punch - 1/4" I think). The Ti screen I made had the same size holes, but only 14 of them. In a performance test with my eCHS stove and Olicamp XTS pot and my old screen, I boiled 2 cups of 70 deg water in 3:50 using 15 mL methanol. Flame went out at 4:20 so I calculate the boil used 13.3 mL of fuel. However repeating this test with the new windscreen the water failed to boil (reached 190 F in 4:00 min). It would seem that with just 14 holes, my stove is oxygen starved. I've made a new aluminum screen with no holes and will keep punching more holes until I find the sweet spot WRT air intake.
    A factor to consider in your testing is what surface the windscreen is resting on. In the real world of camp, air gets to your stove through small gaps UNDER the windscreen as well as through any vent holes. If you are testing it at home on a smooth surface with no irregularities, you will be delivering less air to your burner and may overestimate how many holes to cut.
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  5. #5
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    Here are some photos of a 7 gram pot stand made from 5mil (.005") Ti foil, showing it supporting about 4000g (Open Country 4-quart pot filled). I use this with Esbit and with a Starlyte alcohol stove, usually with an Open Country 3-cup aluminum pot.

    pot support alone.jpgpot support test 01.jpgpot with support.jpg

  6. #6
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    Nice stand Cmoulder. I got my Ti foil the other day. If found the pot stand I made with it to be too flimsy so I will probably just sick with aluminum flashing. I did find the Titanium to be trivial to bend. It was like folding paper and did not show the weakness you get when you crease aluminum.

    You are correct QiWiz about the venting under the screen. In my case, I have a circle of aluminum foil cut from a disposable pie pan. It has a dimpled surface which makes it stiff despite being thin. The stove and windscreen/pot stand set on this so it acts as a heat reflector and surface protector (I do not leave burn marks on the picnic tables). It also helps to make a consistent stable base for the whole system so there isn't much air leaking under the screen, especially since mine also doubles as a pot stand and the weight of the pot and 2 cups of water presses it down firmly on the foil base. But in the field, an irregular surface could change that. However, in my tests, I found there was not as much difference as I expected when I increased the vents. I still have to crunch the numbers, but there seemed to be an optimum between 14 and 44 holes (my original two data points). But now I'm worried that I may get different results with ethanol vs methanol. There's always more tests to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Here are some photos of a 7 gram pot stand made from 5mil (.005") Ti foil, showing it supporting about 4000g (Open Country 4-quart pot filled). I use this with Esbit and with a Starlyte alcohol stove, usually with an Open Country 3-cup aluminum pot.

    pot support alone.jpgpot support test 01.jpgpot with support.jpg
    What tool did you use to cut the slot in the windscreen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zelph View Post
    What tool did you use to cut the slot in the windscreen?
    I used an Xacto #11 blade to score it and then bent it back and forth a few times until it broke.

    A Dremel cutting wheel sounds like the ticket, but it doesn't work well at all.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    I used an Xacto #11 blade to score it and then bent it back and forth a few times until it broke.

    A Dremel cutting wheel sounds like the ticket, but it doesn't work well at all.
    Thank you for that info.

    How well does the StarLyte perform inside the windscreen/pot support? Does the burner become engulfed in flames? Do flames shoot out all the holes?

    The Stalyte should not be filled with more than one ounce of fuel.

  10. #10
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    No, only out the top.

    Photo here with the OC 3-cup pot and Starlyte:Ti pot stand with Starlyte.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    No, only out the top.

    Photo here with the OC 3-cup pot and Starlyte:Ti pot stand with Starlyte.jpg
    Thank you, really nice photo, I'm making one out of Ti for a Toaks 600 with handles. I'll post a photo when it's complete. I have used a series of 1/8" holes inline to form a slot. I use a dremel to clean up the hole burrs, works ok. Doesn't look as nice as yours :-)
    Last edited by zelph; 04-12-2016 at 12:29.

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    This makes me think that a combination of techniques would work better — Drill 2 1/16" holes at each end for the slot, then score the material between the two holes and bend to remove the remaining piece.

    BTW, using a windscreen this setup will boil 3 cups of fairly cold (44°F water) with 30ml of denatured alcohol. Just barely, but a boil in my book. The Fancee Feest will do a rolling boil with a minute to spare with 30ml of fuel.
    Last edited by cmoulder; 04-12-2016 at 07:33.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    in my tests, I found there was not as much difference as I expected when I increased the vents. I still have to crunch the numbers, but there seemed to be an optimum between 14 and 44 holes (my original two data points). But now I'm worried that I may get different results with ethanol vs methanol. There's always more tests to do.
    FWIW, when I make my ti windscreens, I use 5/16" holes. My small windscreens have 14, medium have 16, large have 18, and XL have 20 holes. So far have received no complaints about air-starved stoves when tested outside on a non-smooth surface that lets at least a bit more air in under the windscreen.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    This makes me think that a combination of techniques would work better — Drill 2 1/16" holes at each end for the slot, then score the material between the two holes and bend to remove the remaining piece.

    BTW, using a windscreen this setup will boil 3 cups of fairly cold (44°F water) with 30ml of denatured alcohol. Just barely, but a boil in my book. The Fancee Feest will do a rolling boil with a minute to spare with 30ml of fuel.
    The drilling of 2 holes and then scribing sounds like a good way to do a slot. The slot I'm working with is arched so makes it a challenge.

  15. #15

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    My aluminum flashing windscreen is showing its age after 6 years of use.

    Is there any advantage to replacing it with a titanium foil version? The windscreen does not support a pot.
    Last edited by Recalc; 04-25-2021 at 19:17.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recalc View Post
    My aluminum flashing windscreen is showing its age after 6 years of use.

    Is there any advantage to replacing it with a titanium foil version? The windscreen des not support a pot.
    I'd say that if you got 6 years of good duty from it there's no reason not to stick with aluminum.

    With a very hot burning stove it is possible to melt aluminum if it comes into regular contact with flames. This is why Trail Designs specifically recommends against using their Al cones with wood fires, for example. Of course aluminum pots don't melt because they have some liquid (hopefully!) that is absorbing the energy, although the flux rings of HX pots can be damaged with high heat. And an aluminum pot with no water in it can be destroyed pretty quickly, with which the folks at MSR and JetBoil have had some experience!

  17. #17
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    This was one of my threads from five years ago. How time flies.

    My experimentation with Ti foil was short lived. The foil I got was very flimsy and not sturdy enough to substitute for the robust Al flashing that I had been using. I played with it for a while, but it never made it to field use. I don't recall where I was in my alcohol stove evolution at that time, but now I am using a cylinder of Al flashing that doubles as both the pot stand and wind screen. As such, the Ti foil would not be sturdy enough to support the pot. It is possible there is thicker grade Ti that might work, but I never pursued it as any weight savings would be negligible since my stand/screen is only a few inches tall and a few inches in diameter. Also since it directs heat through the heat exchanger of my Olicamp XTS pot, it doesn't get very hot and thus doesn't suffer from heat fatigue. The situation may be different with a design such as a Caldera Cone where the pot support/wind screen directs heat flow up the side of the pot. I considered that type of system but never made one. While it would allow me to use a lighter pot, it would be at the expense of a much larger and complicated support/screen. Having design that is easy to use (stores inside the pot, requires no assembly/disassembly) was an important goal of mine when developing my system.

    Ti foil would work for blocking the wind when it is not supporting the pot, however I have come to the conclusion that the role of the wind screen is under-appreciated by many alcohol stove users, probably because it is called a "wind screen". I feel it serves a much more critical role of controlling oxygen intake and directing heat output, both of which are important design parameters if your goal is to optimize the efficiency and power of your alcohol stove system. I've seen lots of videos of people using flimsy Ti wind screens to block to the wind, but when placed rather haphazardly around the pot, I don't expect it is plays much role in controlling air and heat flow and giving optimal and predictable performance. But if that is not a design parameter that is of concern to you, then it doesn't really matter.

  18. #18

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    Just a thought looking at this stuff. Seems like you are losing a ton of heat out of the pot. In addition to a lid, seems like could be some kinda way to insulate the pot sides... some kinda shake and bake coating that could handle the heat... maybe some of the 2 part spray on coatings for auto rifle barrels. Seems any lightweight mesh would be metal and conduct heat.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    This was one of my threads from five years ago. How time flies.

    My experimentation with Ti foil was short lived. The foil I got was very flimsy and not sturdy enough to substitute for the robust Al flashing that I had been using. I played with it for a while, but it never made it to field use. I don't recall where I was in my alcohol stove evolution at that time, but now I am using a cylinder of Al flashing that doubles as both the pot stand and wind screen. As such, the Ti foil would not be sturdy enough to support the pot. It is possible there is thicker grade Ti that might work, but I never pursued it as any weight savings would be negligible since my stand/screen is only a few inches tall and a few inches in diameter. Also since it directs heat through the heat exchanger of my Olicamp XTS pot, it doesn't get very hot and thus doesn't suffer from heat fatigue. The situation may be different with a design such as a Caldera Cone where the pot support/wind screen directs heat flow up the side of the pot. I considered that type of system but never made one. While it would allow me to use a lighter pot, it would be at the expense of a much larger and complicated support/screen. Having design that is easy to use (stores inside the pot, requires no assembly/disassembly) was an important goal of mine when developing my system.

    Ti foil would work for blocking the wind when it is not supporting the pot, however I have come to the conclusion that the role of the wind screen is under-appreciated by many alcohol stove users, probably because it is called a "wind screen". I feel it serves a much more critical role of controlling oxygen intake and directing heat output, both of which are important design parameters if your goal is to optimize the efficiency and power of your alcohol stove system. I've seen lots of videos of people using flimsy Ti wind screens to block to the wind, but when placed rather haphazardly around the pot, I don't expect it is plays much role in controlling air and heat flow and giving optimal and predictable performance. But if that is not a design parameter that is of concern to you, then it doesn't really matter.
    Maybe you can save me a few years if you are willing to share your wisdom

    I've been playing with using the Toaks Titanium Windscreen, just a roll of flat metal you wrap around something. In my case I am wrapping it around a Starlyte Burner that is inside an Emberlit stove. With the windscreen about two inches off the ground and covering the side of my kettle it creates sort of a Caldera Cone effect. My problem is that once it gets fully stoked it seems to vaporize the entire fuel load leaving me just shy of a boil.

    Do I need more ventilation? Partially cover the Starlyte? Crappier fuel? Thanks for any advice you care to share!
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  20. #20
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    I'm a little confused about your system. The Emberlit is a collapsible steel twig stove. Are you using that as a pot stand for your Starlyte? If so I'm guessing you want a multi fuel system (alcohol/wood)? In that case, I don't see how a windscreen would come up the side of the pot since the screen is between the pot and the pot stand Emberlit. The Starlyte is a relatively low power stove. I think there are modified versions with a ring to obscure part of the burner for use in a caldera Cone. If you are putting a Starlyte inside the Emberlit, them why do you need a windscreen? Doesn't the Emberlit act as a windscreen?. Also, how far is it from the top of the Starlyte to the bottom of the pot. Perhaps that needs to be adjusted.

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