Is Stoveless a safety issue

[peakbagger]

Using a rainy day in PA scenario where we left the shelter in the AM and it immediately started pouring and continued pouring for 4 hours, good luck on starting a fire unless undercover. Even if I was to build a fire under an overhang at a shelter, any fuel in the woods would be saturated. I am aware of most of the tricks out there on how to make dry wood when there is none readily available but when the woods are wet even those tricks can prove elusive. I once spent about 2 hours in the rain with a bunch of senior level boy scouts trying all the tricks and it was a major effort to get a fire that might be regarded as something to warm up to. Sure I can use a trioxane bar to get a quick fire but once the bar is gone unless I was really prepared, I may not have a fire that lasts. Add in diminished metal capacity from mild hypothermia and the odds get worse. Give me dry conditions and its a relative no brainer but generally hypothermia is a cold and wet/damp scenario unless winds are in the extreme range.

[nsherry61]

In a true emergency, I cannot think of a reason to not just build a fire to warm up . . .

Because there is no fuel with which to build a fire.
Because everything is wet and you do not have the skill to build a fire in such conditions (most people).
Because you are cold and disoriented and building a fire is beyond your current ability.
Because building a fire takes time and a lot of work to collect fuel to maintain it. Whereas lighting a canister stove takes little coordination or time, is quick and can be done inside a quickly put up shelter from inside quickly unrolled or unstuffed bedding.
Because a short rest while getting warm liquid inside your (or your buddy's) cold body and then moving on to safety or an exit may be your smartest option rather than hanging out with a fire.

Can you tell that by and large I think fires for emergencies are over-rated. In most emergency situations, priorities are shelter (including getting out of a dangerous location), stabilizing any medical issues, getting warm if needed (for which shelter and warm drinks are more useful than a fire) and in most cases, most importantly getting out and getting help. AND accordingly, a fire is of limited value in the vast majority of such emergency situations.

And because my fingers still have more pet peeves to punch keys about . . . how many survival shows have we watched where people are hunkering down building shelters and spending time finding food (and often starving) when the best option, by far, would be to extricate one's self from the bad situation, which is also, what most people do in most types of real emergencies. . . being lost or being injured being the two exceptions, being lost of which is the only one where making a fire makes much sense to me (I'm not going to be gathering wood and maintaining a fire if I am injured to the point I can't move).

That all being said, I'd also much rather be curled up inside my shelter and sleeping bag during bad weather or other cold emergencies that I would be trying to walk around hunting fuel to build or maintain a fire.

. . . just my two cents.

[KnightErrant]

I usually go stoveless and definitely don't consider it a safety issue. If you're in a situation where the stove/hot meal is the difference between a safe trip and an emergency situation, multiple bad decisions have already been made, namely improper clothing/gear for the weather and/or opting to stay out instead of head to town when conditions deteriorate past what your clothing/gear is equipped to handle.

If you want to carry a stove because a hot meal/drink is the difference between a moral-boosting ending to your day vs. going to bed on a belly of cold-soaked couscous or whatever, then carry the stove because hot food is worth it for the taste/variety/comfort/etc. Don't carry a stove because you expect it to compensate for an inadequate clothing/shelter/sleep system. I carry my stove on short and/or low mileage trips because a hot cup of cocoa is the perfect way to cap off the day when I'm hanging around camp in the evening, especially on cold nights. But I did most of my thru hike stoveless because for me personally (ymmv, of course), it was lighter and more convenient when I was hiking from dawn to dusk and didn't feel like waiting for water to boil or doing dishes at night. Never a safety issue because I had the right gear for the weather!

[Big_Old_Dog]

Just my opinion, but I think you are going to lose weight and be very hungry after the first couple of weeks on the trail if you only consume 3K Cal/day. You may not be hungry in the beginning stages of a thru-hike on that diet, but I think after a few weeks of running a caloric deficit you'll encounter a phenomena known as "hiker hunger", that occurs when hikers can't/won't carry enough food to meet the 5K to 6K Cal daily demand. Hence the popularity of hiker feeds, gorging on town meals, etc. It takes a lot of fuel to hike 15 miles and go up and down 3500ft in elevation on average every day.

Thanks. I understand your point. I have been specifically focused on the GSMNP stretch. I alluded to the opportunity to fuel at towns along the way. All good plans have constraints and mitigations. My constraint is health related. I have to minimize carry weight. I am kind of old and my body is lousy. From my research, there are only a couple of stretches with long carries. I can clearly come out of the GSMNP at Newfoundland Gap and go down to town.

My basal metabolic rate is just under 2000 kcals/day. Most online caloric expenditure calculators grossly overestimate needs. Walking at 3 mph will not burn more than 330 kcal in an hour on the flats. Incremental caloric needs due to elevation gain is not too hard to estimate. I do not anticipate burning much more than 4200 kcals/day. Clearly, a 5 day stretch running a shortage of 12-1700 calories per day will burn off a couple of pounds. In ketosis, there is no hunger. There is no bonking. I am not worried. When I get to a town, I will pig out. No question that I will be burning my own fat, is there a better store of energy? I once lost 24 pounds of fat on a 30 day bikepacking trip. I am also very certain that my dietary preferences always change on long endeavors but I cannot in my wildest imagination ever eating Raman.

[pyroman53]

Many rainy days, while having hiked all day in the rain, I get to camp wet but warm from hiking. In my experience, I have 20-30 minutes to get out of my wet clothes and into my bag before I start to shiver and will soon progress to even worse shivering. In that time, I have to set up tent and unpack sleep system. In no case did I want to cook until I was warm. That process is critical and my life could depend on me executing those few critical tasks successfully. Unexpected delays or fumbling mean more shivering, fingers becoming less dexterous, and thought processes deteriorating. On some days it’s a fine line and one I game in my head so that I’m ready to meet the challenge. It’s also why I once bailed on a solo hike because of extreme weather, a very slippery trail, and the realization that if I hurt myself, even a little, I might not be able to pull it off, since I’d have no help. It’s not the fire (Pyro can always start a fire), it’s not a hot drink or food, it’s the shelter, dry clothes, a warm sleeping bag, and like Garlic says, an energy packed snack.

[GoldenBear]

It’s not the fire (Pyro can always start a fire), it’s not a hot drink or food, it’s the shelter, dry clothes, a warm sleeping bag, and like Garlic says, an energy packed snack.

Here's a good article on the best order of steps to take in an emergency situation -- like severe shivering when you end your hike.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival...of-operations/

[CalebJ]

Here's a good article on the best order of steps to take in an emergency situation -- like severe shivering when you end your hike.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival...of-operations/

Because the #3 thing on your mind in any emergency in nature should be 'prepare to defend yourself'??

[nsherry61]

Here's a good article on the best order of steps to take in an emergency situation -- like severe shivering when you end your hike.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival...of-operations/

I struggle with the "good" judgment on that article. What a horribly ad infested web site and after the first two suggestions (good ones) the rest is pretty much parroted hype rather than insightful recommendations or guidance.

[cmoulder]

I struggle with the "good" judgment on that article. What a horribly ad infested web site and after the first two suggestions (good ones) the rest is pretty much parroted hype rather than insightful recommendations or guidance.

Yep, pabulum for some wannabe bushcrafter.

I must be a real punter because my medical kit doesn't look anything like that one.

[Five Tango]

Judging from the size of the medical kit and that knife which weighs 15.9 oz with the sheath,I'm a bit surprised that the compass on the list is a bit on the skimpy side.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Because there is no fuel with which to build a fire.
Because everything is wet and you do not have the skill to build a fire in such conditions (most people).
Because you are cold and disoriented and building a fire is beyond your current ability.
Because building a fire takes time and a lot of work to collect fuel to maintain it. Whereas lighting a canister stove takes little coordination or time, is quick and can be done inside a quickly put up shelter from inside quickly unrolled or unstuffed bedding.
Because a short rest while getting warm liquid inside your (or your buddy's) cold body and then moving on to safety or an exit may be your smartest option rather than hanging out with a fire.

Can you tell that by and large I think fires for emergencies are over-rated.n most emergency situations, priorities are shelter (including getting out of a dangerous location), stabilizing any medical issues, getting warm if needed (for which shelter and warm drinks are more useful than a fire) and in most cases, most importantly getting out and getting help. AND accordingly, a fire is of limited value in the vast majority of such emergency situations.

And because my fingers still have more pet peeves to punch keys about . . . how many survival shows have we watched where people are hunkering down building shelters and spending time finding food (and often starving) when the best option, by far, would be to extricate one's self from the bad situation, which is also, what most people do in most types of real emergencies. . . being lost or being injured being the two exceptions, being lost of which is the only one where making a fire makes much sense to me (I'm not going to be gathering wood and maintaining a fire if I am injured to the point I can't move).

That all being said, I'd also much rather be curled up inside my shelter and sleeping bag during bad weather or other cold emergencies that I would be trying to walk around hunting fuel to build or maintain a fire.

. . . just my two cents.

I was talking about emergencies. All of your scenarios assume you have not been separated from your pack. or that your stove works properly or you haven't leaked or spilled all of your fuel. The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Because there is no fuel with which to build a fire.
Because everything is wet and you do not have the skill to build a fire in such conditions (most people).
Because you are cold and disoriented and building a fire is beyond your current ability.
Because building a fire takes time and a lot of work to collect fuel to maintain it. Whereas lighting a canister stove takes little coordination or time, is quick and can be done inside a quickly put up shelter from inside quickly unrolled or unstuffed bedding.
Because a short rest while getting warm liquid inside your (or your buddy's) cold body and then moving on to safety or an exit may be your smartest option rather than hanging out with a fire.

Can you tell that by and large I think fires for emergencies are over-rated.n most emergency situations, priorities are shelter (including getting out of a dangerous location), stabilizing any medical issues, getting warm if needed (for which shelter and warm drinks are more useful than a fire) and in most cases, most importantly getting out and getting help. AND accordingly, a fire is of limited value in the vast majority of such emergency situations.

And because my fingers still have more pet peeves to punch keys about . . . how many survival shows have we watched where people are hunkering down building shelters and spending time finding food (and often starving) when the best option, by far, would be to extricate one's self from the bad situation, which is also, what most people do in most types of real emergencies. . . being lost or being injured being the two exceptions, being lost of which is the only one where making a fire makes much sense to me (I'm not going to be gathering wood and maintaining a fire if I am injured to the point I can't move).

That all being said, I'd also much rather be curled up inside my shelter and sleeping bag during bad weather or other cold emergencies that I would be trying to walk around hunting fuel to build or maintain a fire.

. . . just my two cents.

I was talking about emergencies. All of your scenarios assume you have not been separated from your pack. or that your stove works properly or you haven't leaked or spilled all of your fuel. The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.

[nsherry61]

. . .The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.

Oh my. Quite obviously you haven't spent much time starting fires in the Pacific Northwest or other area that get truly soaking wet. And, I was actually talking specifically about real emergencies, NOT pretend emergency scenarios. Fires always seem logical in a TV or Boy Scout survival scenario. In practice, fires are a pain in the butt to start and maintain in less than ideal conditions and, in most cases, curling up inside some kind of shelter with good insulation and a working stove is way more effective, at least in the short run.

Please, please, please don't go out in the woods expecting fire to be a ready solution to an emergency and easily "attainable by anyone with little practice!" The exact situations where warmth is most often called for in an emergency are exactly the situations that make fire building problematic.

[CalebJ]

Exactly. Unless you have a non hypothermic person to build the fire, it's basically a dead option in an emergency.

[Tipi Walter]

Oh my. Quite obviously you haven't spent much time starting fires in the Pacific Northwest or other area that get truly soaking wet. And, I was actually talking specifically about real emergencies, NOT pretend emergency scenarios. Fires always seem logical in a TV or Boy Scout survival scenario. In practice, fires are a pain in the butt to start and maintain in less than ideal conditions and, in most cases, curling up inside some kind of shelter with good insulation and a working stove is way more effective, at least in the short run.

Please, please, please don't go out in the woods expecting fire to be a ready solution to an emergency and easily "attainable by anyone with little practice!" The exact situations where warmth is most often called for in an emergency are exactly the situations that make fire building problematic.

You echo exactly what I wrote in a winter trip report from a couple years ago---

WHY FIRES SUCK ON A BUTT COLD TRIP
First you have a good 4 season tent set up with a subzero down bag and a 7R or 8R pad system. You also are wearing very warm down pants and a beefy subzero down parka. You're in the tent sitting on your pads and it's 0F but your feet and hands are suitably warm so cocooned by your shelter and gear. You don't want to go out and build a fire at 0F in a 20mph wind. Here's why---

** You have to find a level spot and clear the snow.

** It must be far enough from the tent to prevent burn ash holes in the tent fly from floating embers.

** You move the snow and go gather wood and break or cut enough, you'll also need ample kindling wood.

** All this prep is done in your butt cold rock hard boots, so your in-tent warm feet are now frozen.

** You work hard to get enough wood and get a fire going.

** Your backpacking winter goose down layers are getting pinholed by hot ashes because as a backpacker you cannot carry enough flame resistant clothing (wool/canvas) to be as warm as your lighter down parka and pants and down mittens.

** As you feed the fire and wait for the coals to build up it's dark and 0F with a moderate wind so your torso is cooling rapidly and your hands are cold because the fire doesn't yet give off enough heat to sit down and bask in the warmth.

** And where are you gonna sit? Definitely not on your inflatable sleeping pad---it'll get holed by a hot ash. And not on your ccf pad in your tent because it'll get wet from melting snow and also holed by hot embers. But you have to sit somewhere so you can remove your boots and thaw out your painful feet.

** In due time your face and chest and arms and legs are getting warm but your back and butt are still ice cold and your socked feet are barely thawing even by the fire. Don't burn your socks.

** Smoke chokes your lungs and eyes. Just about the time you get relaxed and comfy you have to put your rock hard boots on to get more wood.

** After a couple hours the hot coals aren't enough as they wither away and you start getting ass cold again and it's time to retire to the tent---where you could've been all along on top of your sleeping pads and under your -20F down bag while writing in your trip report.

The best use of a fire in the winter is in a tipi with a woodstove (or wall tent or witu etc). Something you can feed at 10pm and by 10am the next day it still has a bed of hot coals and puts out heat all night.

Just my opinion.

[Big_Old_Dog]

Holy Mackeral, Tipi. You're like a walking encyclopedia. You listed so many of the reasons why I don't ever want to build a fire. You mentioned a wood stove, please don't tell me you have one of those in your pack, LOL.

I know this is off topic, but I was going over some of my old gear and my merino base layer top has seen its better days. It is about 8 years old and I honestly never liked it. I really don't want to buy a new one and came up with a hair brained idea. I have this old light cashmere sweater that I bought used on fleebay for 15 bucks, it got a couple moth holes in it lately and my wife hates it. I often wear it wear it as a base layer hunting. I am thinking of using it backpacking. It weighs 8.5 oz......a little heavy but it is very warm and feels like liquid sex on your skin and it does not collect odor. I can hear the experts at the shelters telling me my sweater is no good. For that alone, I think I found my new base layer.

[CalebJ]

How does cashmere handle getting wet? That would be my only immediate concern. Everything gets wet at some point.

[Tipi Walter]

I know this is off topic, but I was going over some of my old gear and my merino base layer top has seen its better days. It is about 8 years old and I honestly never liked it. I really don't want to buy a new one and came up with a hair brained idea. I have this old light cashmere sweater that I bought used on fleebay for 15 bucks, it got a couple moth holes in it lately and my wife hates it. I often wear it wear it as a base layer hunting. I am thinking of using it backpacking. It weighs 8.5 oz......a little heavy but it is very warm and feels like liquid sex on your skin and it does not collect odor. I can hear the experts at the shelters telling me my sweater is no good. For that alone, I think I found my new base layer.

If your wife hates it you know it's perfect for backpacking. I have a down vest which looks like I've been working on diesel engines for a year and my wife hates it but it's worth its weight in gold. It therefore passes the Significant Udder test.

[Grampie]

Their is nothing better than a hot meal after hiking a long cold or wet day.

[Five Tango]

Their is nothing better than a hot meal after hiking a long cold or wet day.

That and a nice hot cup of tea with a little powdered apple cider mixed in,then some nice HOT oatmeal or grits in the morning with some Cafe Bustelo..........plus,you can warm your hands a bit while the water is heating.......