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  1. #141

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    Was that supposed to make any rational sense?

  2. #142
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    rational? absolutely. what's irrational?

    the real question is when did you get to decide what is rational about my life.

    btw, im not saying we should all go outside, hug, and stand side by side. we definetly need to be smart. and we can be smart while we are hiking just like we are smart while being in everyday life.

    what I'm say is to jump to conclusions that hikers are carrying or spreading the virus is not the answer. it is actually wrong....very wrong

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  3. #143
    Registered User Christoph's Avatar
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    I was wondering the same thing about "checking for damage" when we're supposed to be clear of the trail and shelter areas. Seems a bit hypocritical to me the way that was written.
    Last edited by Christoph; 04-04-2020 at 10:06.
    - Trail name: Thumper

  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesgoat View Post
    what I'm say is to jump to conclusions that hikers are carrying or spreading the virus is not the answer. it is actually wrong....very wrong
    Unfortunately, at the moment you have to assume that everyone you meet is a potential carrier and that maybe you are too and don't yet know it. That's the insidious part of this paranoia.

    This would normally be one of the peak weeks for thru hikers to start. Imagine if 50 people a day had been showing up at Springer from all over with the current situation. There could be an epidemic by the time they got to Hiawassee. I don't know if all these people would have taken it on themselves to cancel the hike or had to be pushed into it by the closures, pleas and dire warnings from the ATC.

    Hikers who started in early March are no doubt virus free. But with warmer weather and people coming in from urban areas to do a little hiking, they could very well bring the virus with them.
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  5. #145

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    Interesting the attitudes around the US and how they impact the health of communities in pursuit of self interests, be it financial or other. Let's hope no one has to discover the bodies of those expiring on the trail and having to clean up the final mess.

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesgoat View Post
    ......also, your message is all about possibilities. what if....what if....the hikers you were talking about neither attracted the virus and didnt have before hiking. what if they were actually virus free? ........
    Up to possibly 25% of those infected with coronavirus are asymptomatic and can spread the virus. Don't assume those hikers are virus free because they aren't showing symptoms.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  7. #147
    4eyedbuzzard's Avatar
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    OPINION:

    There seems to be an idea out there in some people's minds that almost everybody in the US is just staying at home everyday - that everyone is holed up waiting this thing out. It just isn't the reality. Even given stay-at home and social (physical) distancing policies, tens of millions of us - most of the workforce in fact - are still going to work everyday. Some activities can be suspended - schools, entertainment and sports and other gatherings, etc. Some people can telework - most cannot. While certain businesses, social activities, and gatherings can be suspended, most manufacturing, supply of goods and services, infrastructure, healthcare, etc., simply goes on. Many millions of us are in one way or another part of the supply chain of goods and services that simply can't be interrupted. And we are contracting and spreading this disease, often before we become symptomatic. Those who aren't in this group aren't really isolated from us - they interact with us directly or indirectly everyday either through obtaining and using/consuming products we handle or as service providers or as household family members. And while we try to do what we can to mitigate the spread, it is realistically impossible to maintain things like constant physical separation from co-workers, perfectly clean handling of goods, perfect hygiene, etc. CDC has finally decided that masks might be a reasonable idea (took 'em long enough, huh?). And while I believe mask usage when in close proximity with other people and in public places, especially in stores, crowded areas, etc., is a good idea that can help (it isn't an end-all), most of us have not been wearing masks. There are many reasons - mask shortages, the government and CDC being reactive rather than proactive (and weeks behind in their actions), cultural resistance, and even mandates by some government agencies and private industries that employees NOT wear masks due to security/identification reasons, and to not create fear in the general public. I'm out there everyday in my little role of keeping everything going. So is my wife. Along with millions and millions of others. Even if you don't come into direct contact with us in the course of our work, you consume what we produce. We shop at the same stores you do, touch the same doors and gas pump handles, walk the same streets and parking lots, breathe the same air... The tens of millions of us "essential" workers are undoubtedly spreading this disease throughout the population and entire chain of goods and services. No matter what you do, or where you do it, you will be exposed. It is inevitable.

    So regarding hikers: Should they consider rescheduling? Yes. The logistics of hiking this year will make it more difficult due to travel, trail services, etc., and if they do get sick, treatment away from home will become an issue. Should hikers congregate in groups? Obviously, no. Should they maintain adequate distance between themselves? Yes. Practice good trail hygiene? Yeah, just as they should any other time. Should they wear a mask when in town at the store or even when passing a group of others? Sure. We all need to do what we can. But the notion some have expressed that a few hikers passing each other on a trail outdoors, or even buying groceries at a store near the trail, poses some sort of severe infection spreading threat beyond what already exists off trail for both the hiker and non-hiker alike, or that they will have any significant impact regarding "flattening the curve", is simply absurd in the scope of things.
    Last edited by 4eyedbuzzard; 04-04-2020 at 10:59.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasBob View Post
    Up to possibly 25% of those infected with coronavirus are asymptomatic and can spread the virus. Don't assume those hikers are virus free because they aren't showing symptoms.
    This. Not only are they spreading it, they can spread it at high levels. Here is an eye-opening quote from the journal of Science:

    "In a study published in the journal Science earlier this month, Shaman and his colleagues found that undocumented COVID-19 cases were responsible for 86 percent of the spread of the disease in China before the country enacted travel restrictions on January 23, 2020. "

    from https://www.discovermagazine.com/hea...s-why-you-dont

    This makes all of us potential carriers and without testing every person, it's going to be difficult to limit the spread of this virus. No one should be out thru hiking right now.​

  9. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    OPINION: But the notion some have expressed that a few hikers passing each other on a trail outdoors, or even buying groceries at a store near the trail, poses some sort of severe infection spreading threat beyond what already exists off trail for both the hiker and non-hiker alike, or that they will have any significant impact regarding "flattening the curve", is simply absurd in the scope of things.
    However, as I pointed out earlier, if wanabe thru hikers had shown up at Springer in the numbers which are typical for this time of year - several thousand over the course of a month or so and with the crowded conditions at shelters and campsites, there would be the potential for serious problems. All of these people coming in from who knows where and by unknown means, many if not most could have been exposed to the virus on the way to the trail, if they didn't already have it. Say one person heading to the trail infects a shuttle driver, who then transports another 100 people. See the problem? Guess where they would all fall ill? Franklin, NC.

    Yea, once you leave your house for any reason, you run the risk of catching the CV-19 and eventually you probably will. But at home, being well feed, warm and with your body not all stressed out from hiking, you have a better chance of fighting it off and seeking medical help if needed.
    Last edited by Slo-go'en; 04-04-2020 at 11:33.
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  10. #150
    4eyedbuzzard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    However, as I pointed out earlier, if wanabe thru hikers had shown up at Springer in the numbers which are typical for this time of year - several thousand over the course of a month or so and with the crowded conditions at shelters and campsites, there would be the potential for serious problems. People of southern states are already at great risk due to the slow and inept response to the pandemic. A lot of thru hikers would just make it worse. All of these people coming in from who knows where and by unknown means, many if not most could have been exposed to the virus on the way to the trail, if they didn't already have it. Guess where they would all fall ill? Franklin, NC.

    Yea, once you leave your house for any reason, you run the risk of catching the CV-19 and eventually you probably will. But at home, being well feed, warm and with your body not all stressed out from hiking, you have a better chance of fighting it off and seeking medical help if needed.
    I agree to a great extent, especially regarding the Springer Fever numbers (or what takes place on the Franconia Loop on a nice summer day), hiker convergence, the logistics of travel in crowded public places, etc. What I object to is the notion that a few people have expressed that just being outside in general and/or walking a trail constitute some sort of grave public health threat beyond what people do in their "safe stay at home" lives. There is reasonable concern and reasonable caution to be exercised everywhere. I wish my everyday risk - to both contract or infect someone else - was as small as passing a couple other hikers over the course of a few hours. I doubt I'm alone in that wish.

  11. #151

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    I just took a walk over to the Valley Way trailhead (Locally known as Appalachia). 18 cars, 1/3d from Mass and all the NH ones likely from down state where the CV-19 is currently spreading. There are even 3 cars parked at the obscure trailhead next to my house, one from Vermont.
    If I pass one of these hikers from a high risk area, am I truly safe?
    The ironic thing is trail conditions currently suck and they should not even be on these trails right now.
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  12. #152
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    i just took a stroll on the AT north of town. not a soul out there. getting to the steps on the Creeper trail was another story. a dozen bikes and about the same amount of walkers passed us

  13. #153

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    "This year's flu season is shaping up to be possibly less severe than the 2017-2018 season, when 61,000 deaths were linked to the virus. However, it could equal or surpass the 2018-2019 season's 34,200 flu-related deaths.

    Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu. Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year."

    (from: https://www.health.com/condition/col...flu-every-year).

    At some point, we will be able to present factual retro-perspective on COVID-19: for now, the unknown inspires all the fear, and every stone is being overturned until the faith that it has passed ensues.

  14. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snooze View Post
    "This year's flu season is shaping up to be possibly less severe than the 2017-2018 season, when 61,000 deaths were linked to the virus. However, it could equal or surpass the 2018-2019 season's 34,200 flu-related deaths.

    Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu. Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year."

    (from: https://www.health.com/condition/col...flu-every-year).

    At some point, we will be able to present factual retro-perspective on COVID-19: for now, the unknown inspires all the fear, and every stone is being overturned until the faith that it has passed ensues.
    What is not "unknown" are the death rates in an average flu season and with CV-19, to date. This pandemic is much deadlier than the flu.

  15. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    I agree to a great extent, especially regarding the Springer Fever numbers (or what takes place on the Franconia Loop on a nice summer day), hiker convergence, the logistics of travel in crowded public places, etc. What I object to is the notion that a few people have expressed that just being outside in general and/or walking a trail constitute some sort of grave public health threat beyond what people do in their "safe stay at home" lives. There is reasonable concern and reasonable caution to be exercised everywhere. I wish my everyday risk - to both contract or infect someone else - was as small as passing a couple other hikers over the course of a few hours. I doubt I'm alone in that wish.
    I have a trailhead at the end of my road, it's a mile walk to get there. If the parking lot is crowded, I skip the trail for that day, and I've gotten in a two mile road walk, which is good enough. My interactions on the trail... have been mixed. The irresponsible lady who let her two dogs off leash, and let them attack my dog... is she also irresponsible in other aspects of her life? I've no idea. Most people have been awesome about stepping off to the side of our trail and letting each other pass, it's a lower altitude easy trail where there's a lot of space to step to the side. Then again, I had one guy come up and get right in my face, wanting to congratulate me for not being "paranoid" about the "Wuhan" flu. I about put my hiking pole in his chest to ward him off.

    We have no way of knowing if the other person on the trail is taking reasonable precautions or not. It's the old box of chocolates thing, you never know what you're going to get.

  16. #156
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    Well having read a lot of the posts on this thread, here's my 2 cents worth from someone who was going to start a thru-hike in GA on April 1st, (which I have responsibly cancelled) in lieu of still trying a thru-hike if this pandemic finally relents, by starting at the end of May in SNP and doing a Flip-Flop thru-hike.

    Mind you I have been planning this thru-hike from literally the day after I finished my first thru-hike on Oct. 3rd 1980!

    So it's been 40 years in the making. From a young punk of 20, to a grisly old fart of 60, I have waited patiently for the time to retire and relive the memories of my first thru-hike, by hiking in 2020. Without sounding selfish, it sucks not to be hiking the AT right now. But there are more important things in life going on right now and millions of people have made small sacrifices for the betterment of the current situation...

    Ultimately nobody has the right to tell another person how to live their lives. We can all agree on that I surmise. But what's happening around the world with Covid - 19 and more specifically here in our own country calls attention that we are all in this TOGETHER!!!

    The only true course is to do as the health experts are begging us all to do: STAY HOME & BE SAFE!!! Suspend any type of action that puts any number of people in harms way. It's really the morale thing to do, plain & simple, and the best way to beat this deadly, highly contagious virus.

    The AT, PCT, CDT, and all the other great trails of our great country will still be there when this pandemic is finally over. And if we all pull together, perhaps we can "flatten' the curve" faster and ultimately get back on all the trails we love & miss.

    I'm planning on it with a little help from my friends... Happy Trails...

  17. #157
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    Very well put.
    For the sake of your health, please stay at home.
    This is the only feasible method mankind has to fight the Corona pandemy.

    We here in Austria are under quite a strict "stay at home"-policy since 3 weeks now and finally numbers of infection stopped to explode now.
    Another 2-3 weeks of quasi-quaranaine and the horror could be past.

  18. #158
    Registered User QuietStorm's Avatar
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    Two days ago I learned I was negative for COVID 19. I had become symptomatic on March 24, ended up in the ER, was sent home to quarantine for 14 days, and was tested on March 31. Will that change my decision and behavior? No, not one bit. I'm as likely to contract and infect someone else now as I was before. I have 188 miles to go to finish my section hike of the AT. I haven't stepped foot on the trail since March 21 for a day training hike in PA. What I saw then was enough to convince me to stay off regardless of what the ATC recommends. I picked a well-traveled part of PA--from Caledonia State Park to Birch Run Shelter and back--but it was below freezing when I started and foolish me thought this would be a typical late winter, early spring day with few hikers. In any case, I had originally planned to finish my last section beginning June 28 and summiting around July 14. I postponed it yesterday with the Hostel of Maine, which is helping me with logistics. I had already booked KSC for July 13 but will try to see if BSP will allow me to change the date.

  19. #159
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    According to the notice I got all shelters and privies are closed in CT... That's good and good they didn't "close the trail". Stop thru hikers and close the parking areas if it's too crowded - but don't stop people who are willing to walk or get a ride and avoid others on the trail. Your way more likely to catch it walking down any street I drive down that's full of people walking, never mind the grocery store. As far as the claim that "there's some spots where your on a ledge and can't step off 6 feet" --- then don't go there if your worried. Not many places in CT where you can't let somebody pass. Plenty of other trails to, I've been visiting unpopular ones and probably wont even go near the AT anytime soon unless they close parking areas. They still shouldn't try to stop every single person from walking on it, like I think the ATC wanted but didn't get.


    -Your actually still allowed to camp around the shelters with tents and dig cat holes according to the forest service's notice.
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  20. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyLightning View Post
    According to the notice I got all shelters and privies are closed in CT... That's good and good they didn't "close the trail". Stop thru hikers and close the parking areas if it's too crowded - but don't stop people who are willing to walk or get a ride and avoid others on the trail. Your way more likely to catch it walking down any street I drive down that's full of people walking, never mind the grocery store. As far as the claim that "there's some spots where your on a ledge and can't step off 6 feet" --- then don't go there if your worried. Not many places in CT where you can't let somebody pass. Plenty of other trails to, I've been visiting unpopular ones and probably wont even go near the AT anytime soon unless they close parking areas. They still shouldn't try to stop every single person from walking on it, like I think the ATC wanted but didn't get.


    -Your actually still allowed to camp around the shelters with tents and dig cat holes according to the forest service's notice.
    You know why you think that works...because the majority of everybody else is doing what has been asked of them. Ethics is what you do when nobody is watching.
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