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Thread: Permethrin

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    Default Permethrin

    Are there any chemists out here who know wether 1) if you can spray it on a nylon type rain jacket or rain pants, 2) if you do spray it on, does it work on repelling ticks, and 3) does spraying it on those jackets and pants wreck the jacket or pants.

    Thanks

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    I have used it on my silk sleep sack for several years now and can see no deterioration of the material. However I am reluctant to spray it on my Cuban fiber pack and pack pods, feeling that they were too expensive to experiment with.
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    Besides the insect poison, my spray bottle of Premethrin says it contains 99.5% inert ingredients. Which is probably mostly water. Nothing that will melt nylon or plastic. The spray can version probably uses CO2 for a propellant.
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    We used it on our tarptent, rain gear, hats, gaitors, almost everything except our underwear. Worked perfectly in Maine in June/July for blackflies, ticks, mossys.

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    Shoulda sprayed your underwear. No worse area to try to find ticks, or ask someone to help, especially when you haven’t showered for 5 days...

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    Quote Originally Posted by IslandPete View Post
    Shoulda sprayed your underwear. No worse area to try to find ticks, or ask someone to help, especially when you haven’t showered for 5 days...
    Yeah, underwear, socks, hat, and shoes too... EPA says not to apply it to underwear, but it's used directly on skin and scalp in much higher concentrations as treatment for lice, scabies, and other parasites. Maybe if a person is hyper-sensitive it could be a skin irritation problem, but for most getting Lyme or RMSF or one of the many other diseases spread by ticks would likely be far more "irritating".

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    I found one attached to the tip of my...you know...one time when I stopped to take a leak. I'm 47 years old, and I could barely remove it because my hands were shaking so badly from fighting back the urge to start crying. That's when I started using permethrin. I had forgotten about the trauma until I read your post. Thanks for that.
    -tagg

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    Quote Originally Posted by IslandPete View Post
    Shoulda sprayed your underwear. No worse area to try to find ticks, or ask someone to help, especially when you havenít showered for 5 days...
    NO! CDC advises against it. It should only be applied to outer wear. It's not meant for application to skin or having contact with skin. This also means not spraying it on when wearing the clothing being treated. It also means a little is good more is always better is not the correct mindset. Same with DEET. It's advised and illegal also not to use the agricultural versions attempting to dilute down to human apps as some have suggested on long standing Permethrin and insect repellant threads.

    You dont want this stuff entering your body through inhaling, mucus membranes, or transdermal absorption. This is a pesticide not simply a repellant. It is an endocrine system disruptor. I've gotten it on my skin through past ignorance and it affected my nervous system. It's not a happy happy be well feeling! It can affect immune system. It can raise the risk for cancer. Use it correctly according to directions contacting makers and authorities with any questions rather than supposing internet forums are the best sources of advise. https://www.epa.gov/endocrine-disrup...ine-disruptionhttps://www.consumerreports.org/inse...othing-safely/

    As the article states in appropriately freshly applied/working permethrin treated outerwear I note not only a strong insect repellancy for ticks and mosquitos but a knock down affect where mosquitos and ticks will either die and fall off or be incapacitated and fall after landing on outerwear treated apparel. I've also stained three pieces applying it - a 100% ripstop silk Cocoon liner applying it to the outside, WM Highlite bag's shell and MB Versalite. The Versalite because i think I inadvertedly got some on the inside or it cane through the outer application. I haven't be able to remove the stains. Outer sock and outer footwear apps haven't witnessed permanent staining with very good to excellent efficacy for ticks. https://www.consumerreports.org/inse...othing-safely/

    I thought the article was fairly well written without undue hyping of potential dangers while offering solid advise.
    Last edited by Dogwood; 11-11-2019 at 14:36.

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    You'll have to make your own judgement I suppose. I soak my undies in permetherin. Just to clarify: mucus membrane = the eyes, ears, inside the nose, inside the mouth, lip, vagina, the urethral opening and the anus. I'm a guy, so there's very little "mucus membrane" coming in direct contact with my shorts. I would say that it's worth the risk even if they are - but that's JMHO. CDC is pretty conservative and my exposure is limited in duration. I haven't observed any negative consequences personally but some people are more sensitive to it than others - you should certainly test it before you head out on a multi-week hike and discover that it irritates you

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    Yeah, underwear, socks, hat, and shoes too... EPA says not to apply it to underwear, but it's used directly on skin and scalp in much higher concentrations as treatment for lice, scabies, and other parasites. Maybe if a person is hyper-sensitive it could be a skin irritation problem, but for most getting Lyme or RMSF or one of the many other diseases spread by ticks would likely be far more "irritating".
    I've only seen two studies that examined the short term transdermal affects when 5% permethrin containing cream was used for scabies.

    Here's the thing that few will engage examining. We can rather easily already be under a toxic load, possibly a quite significant one. Adding another potential toxin - immunodepressant, cancer risk increaser, etc the equation can be personally unique so those scenarios are not studied as well or at all. When it comes to permethrin were not always using it alone. We're often applying a separate chemical(s) to the skin like DEET also transdermally absorbed. This can increase your toxic load. How much toxic load is personally allowable? Permethrin in higher doses is both a neurotoxin and carcinogen. Thiose are concclkusions based on permethrin alone not factoring in all teh other toxins were exposed. .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    I've only seen two studies that examined the short term transdermal affects when 5% permethrin containing cream was used for scabies.

    Here's the thing that few will engage examining. We can rather easily already be under a toxic load, possibly a quite significant one. Adding another potential toxin - immunodepressant, cancer risk increaser, etc the equation can be personally unique so those scenarios are not studied as well or at all. When it comes to permethrin were not always using it alone. We're often applying a separate chemical(s) to the skin like DEET also transdermally absorbed. This can increase your toxic load. How much toxic load is personally allowable? Permethrin in higher doses is both a neurotoxin and carcinogen. Thiose are concclkusions based on permethrin alone not factoring in all teh other toxins were exposed. .
    You make your choices and take your chances. Once permetherin dries it bonds very tightly to fabrics and stays put, which is why you can wash it a bunch of times and it still works. Ticks on your groin are a very real risk too and Lyme disease is quite unpleasant.

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    While the warnings regarding inhalation, ingestion, and mucus membrane absorption are valid, I believe dogwood is overstating the potential dangers of transdermal absorption of permethrin by lumping the potential transdermal route with the other ways permethrin can get into the body. Transdermal absorption of permethrin, even when applied directly to human skin is very low, around 1 to 2% at most even when applied "wet" to skin. If if wasn't, scabies creams, which are typically a 5% concentration (10 x higher than clothing spray), applied all over the infested person's body and left on for for 8 to 16 hours wouldn't be the most widely used treatment for such conditions. Additionally, permethrin is not soluble in water. And sweat is basically water. This explains why permethrin holds up to multiple launderings in water and detergent, and why it shouldn't be dry cleaned as the non-water solvents used in dry cleaning DO remove it. It does wash out eventually, and spray on types don't bind as well to fabrics as the factory applied treatments, but both are due to the permethrin molecules mechanically getting knocked off of the fabric by agitation - not dissolving in the water. Once it dries on clothing, the chances of transdermal absorption to any degree are exceedingly low. Note that even outerwear comes in contact with skin at some point - shirt sleeves, collars, cuffs, hats, socks, etc., and that factory treated clothing carries no cautions about wearing tee shirts, socks, hats, etc., next to skin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    NO! CDC advises against it. It should only be applied to outer wear. It's not meant for application to skin or having contact with skin. This also means not spraying it on when wearing the clothing being treated. It also means a little is good more is always better is not the correct mindset. Same with DEET. It's advised and illegal also not to use the agricultural versions attempting to dilute down to human apps as some have suggested on long standing Permethrin and insect repellant threads.

    You dont want this stuff entering your body through inhaling, mucus membranes, or transdermal absorption. This is a pesticide not simply a repellant. It is an endocrine system disruptor. I've gotten it on my skin through past ignorance and it affected my nervous system. It's not a happy happy be well feeling! It can affect immune system. It can raise the risk for cancer. Use it correctly according to directions contacting makers and authorities with any questions rather than supposing internet forums are the best sources of advise. https://www.epa.gov/endocrine-disrup...ine-disruptionhttps://www.consumerreports.org/inse...othing-safely/

    As the article states in appropriately freshly applied/working permethrin treated outerwear I note not only a strong insect repellancy for ticks and mosquitos but a knock down affect where mosquitos and ticks will either die and fall off or be incapacitated and fall after landing on outerwear treated apparel. I've also stained three pieces applying it - a 100% ripstop silk Cocoon liner applying it to the outside, WM Highlite bag's shell and MB Versalite. The Versalite because i think I inadvertedly got some on the inside or it cane through the outer application. I haven't be able to remove the stains. Outer sock and outer footwear apps haven't witnessed permanent staining with very good to excellent efficacy for ticks. https://www.consumerreports.org/inse...othing-safely/

    I thought the article was fairly well written without undue hyping of potential dangers while offering solid advise.
    This is straight off the Sawyer webpage. Clothing to me would include a t-shirt and running/hiking shorts. A t-shirt lays against the skin so it seems to me that you can use it on fabric that will touch your skin (not just on a jacket that will touch your t-shirt).

    "For use on clothing, tents, sleeping bags, and other outdoor gear, Sawyer Permethrin is more than just an insect repellent — it actually kills ticks, mosquitoes, spiders, chiggers, mites, and more than 55 other kinds of insects. Permethrin is also effective against the Yellow Fever Mosquito, which can transmit the Zika Virus.

    Providing a fantastic odorless barrier of protection, a single application of Permethrin lasts for 6 weeks or 6 washings. Using it on outdoor gear also helps reduce the mosquito population in your camp and prevents ticks from attaching to you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne View Post
    You make your choices and take your chances. Once permetherin dries it bonds very tightly to fabrics and stays put, which is why you can wash it a bunch of times and it still works. Ticks on your groin are a very real risk too and Lyme disease is quite unpleasant.
    True. But the risks of tick and mosquito borne diseases shouldn't be an excuse for non compliance of well communicated direction for use of pesticides or assuming permethrin is the only way to approach repellency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spfleisig View Post
    This is straight off the Sawyer webpage. Clothing to me would include a t-shirt and running/hiking shorts. A t-shirt lays against the skin so it seems to me that you can use it on fabric that will touch your skin (not just on a jacket that will touch your t-shirt).
    Similar to outer application to socks, shoes, etc.
    "For use on clothing, tents, sleeping bags, and other outdoor gear, Sawyer Permethrin is more than just an insect repellent ó it actually kills ticks, mosquitoes, spiders, chiggers, mites, and more than 55 other kinds of insects.
    Yeah, it's a pesticide not just a repellent hence falling under the jurisdiction of the EPA. It's also personally stained hard and soft shells, a sleeping bag, and a 100% $$$ silk liner. I suspect an application of it was consequential in having an otherwise greatly cared for MB Versalite Rain Jacket with no previous seam tape peeling issues to have it now peeling.
    .............

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    I use the agricultural version called Gordon's Goat and Sheep Spray. It is pre-mixed and the cost is about $14.00 per gallon. It contains the exact same ingredients as Sawyers, including the inert ingredients. Check the two labels for yourself. If you read all the warnings inside the label there's a strong case to be made that you shouldn't use this product or Sawyers. Several times the warnings state that your clothes should be washed immediately if they come into contact with this product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    True. But the risks of tick and mosquito borne diseases shouldn't be an excuse for non compliance of well communicated direction for use of pesticides or assuming permethrin is the only way to approach repellency.
    My daughter had Lyme disease. It was awful. I’ll take my chances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    While the warnings regarding inhalation, ingestion, and mucus membrane absorption are valid, I believe dogwood is overstating the potential dangers of transdermal absorption of permethrin by lumping the potential transdermal route with the other ways permethrin can get into the body. Transdermal absorption of permethrin, even when applied directly to human skin is very low, around 1 to 2% at most even when applied "wet" to skin. If if wasn't, scabies creams, which are typically a 5% concentration (10 x higher than clothing spray), applied all over the infested person's body and left on for for 8 to 16 hours wouldn't be the most widely used treatment for such conditions. Additionally, permethrin is not soluble in water. And sweat is basically water. This explains why permethrin holds up to multiple launderings in water and detergent, and why it shouldn't be dry cleaned as the non-water solvents used in dry cleaning DO remove it. It does wash out eventually, and spray on types don't bind as well to fabrics as the factory applied treatments, but both are due to the permethrin molecules mechanically getting knocked off of the fabric by agitation - not dissolving in the water. Once it dries on clothing, the chances of transdermal absorption to any degree are exceedingly low. Note that even outerwear comes in contact with skin at some point - shirt sleeves, collars, cuffs, hats, socks, etc., and that factory treated clothing carries no cautions about wearing tee shirts, socks, hats, etc., next to skin.
    The potential dangers are understated not overstated considering:

    I originally meant to offer two different links. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK231575/

    Excerpt as links are not being considered:
    Dermal Absorption

    The dermal absorption of permethrin is more relevant to human exposure and has been investigated in a number of laboratory animals, including rats (Shah et al., 1987), monkeys (Sidon et al., 1988), and mice (Shah et al., 1981). Limited studies on the dermal absorption of permethrin in humans have also been conducted. The percutaneous absorption of permethrin is generally lower in humans than in other mammalian species (CEPA, 1992). The results of several relevant studies are summarized below.

    I will say again:
    Here's the thing that few will engage examining. We can rather easily already be under a toxic load, possibly a quite significant one. Adding another potential toxin - immunodepressant, cancer risk increaser, etc the equation can be personally unique so those scenarios are not studied as well or at all. When it comes to permethrin were not always using it alone. We're often applying a separate chemical(s) to the skin like DEET also transdermally absorbed. This can increase your toxic load. This has been happening with our digestive systems as well. How much toxic load is personally allowable? Permethrin in higher doses is both a neurotoxin and carcinogen. Those are conclusions based on permethrin alone not factoring in all the other toxins were exposed. This overwhelms our bodies resilience to detoxify.

  20. #20

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    If you treat your socks, pants/shorts, t shirt/shirt with permethrin, how do ticks get passed those clothing items to end up on your nether regions? Had that happen before Insectashield but never since I had my clothes (but not underwear) treated.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

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