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  1. #41

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    I bought the WhiteBlaze book, and asked the author if it was ok to copy pages for my own use. If someone needs a little assist on the trail, it would be wrong to turn them down, especially if water is the main need. As Red Greeen says "We're all in this together"

  2. #42
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    Here did they get the initial info? If from someone passing it on should they be sharing it????

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

  3. #43
    Registered User soilman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    Amen to this!! (But we've already had a discussion about smartphones on another WB thread).

    In the old days we used to backpack the Appalachian Trail using either these set of books with maps---

    Attachment 45733

    Nowadays it seems everything has to be terminally parsed and planned and studied and confabulated with no deviations and no surprises. In the old days we would start backpacking up the AT in Georgia and midway thru North Carolina we'd hitch to a regional rainbow gathering and camp for a week. Where's the guidebook for this???

    And don't get me going on a long rant about Smartphones and Why I Hate Them.
    I still have a complete set of guide books and maps from the 70's. The biggest problem using them back then were many sections were out-of-date because of relocations. I have annotations on many pages where I have just crossed out the published data and added "relocated" in the margin. The hiker grapevine was often the best source of trail info. Many people don't know how good they have it today. I also think that some of the adventure has been lost because of this wealth of information.
    More walking, less talking.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by soilman View Post
    I also think that some of the adventure has been lost because of this wealth of information.
    Exactly my point.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by soilman View Post
    I also think that some of the adventure has been lost because of this wealth of information.
    No doubt. I live in Canada, and I love hiking in the states where I can legitimately tell people I won't be answering phone/text for a long stretch because it's too expensive.

    I noticed this canoeing as well. It used to take longer to find portage trails and I'd have to search around. Now that I have a map with gps.... it's very easy and faster, but that leaves me staring at the phone and not at the trees, and I enjoyed my last trip going "digital map free" better, even if I had to do a bit of searching for trails.
    On the AT it doesn't bother me to have it with me, because the trail is so obvious and I just don't bring it out unless it's actually needed.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    and has anyone asked Guthook what his/her thoughts are on this?
    Not yet that I know of! But I do peek at Whiteblaze a little, so I'm happy to chime in anyway :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    which leads me to wonder-----is Guthook doing this to make a profit or just doing it to pass information on to hikers?
    Profit or to help hikers? Both! This is a full-time job for five people, so we do need to make money in order to support ourselves and keep the app going. But we’re also hikers and love what we do. I even use the app fairly often for weekend hikes or just to play around with.

    We never would have been able to build what we have without people telling each other about the app (we only started advertising in any serious way five years after we first released it), so we’re happy that people talk about it. That usually means they’re happy with what we’ve made. If the people you show the app to are interested in what they see, and go on to buy it later, that’s a better-informed purchase than it might have been otherwise. If they decide they don't need it, that’s fine, too.

    I wouldn't object to someone sharing info from the app to help out another hiker. I'm glad you all are having the discussion in the first place, because it can be a bit of an ethical grey area.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by guthook View Post
    Not yet that I know of! But I do peek at Whiteblaze a little, so I'm happy to chime in anyway :-)
    Profit or to help hikers? Both! This is a full-time job for five people, so we do need to make money in order to support ourselves and keep the app going. But we’re also hikers and love what we do. I even use the app fairly often for weekend hikes or just to play around with.

    We never would have been able to build what we have without people telling each other about the app (we only started advertising in any serious way five years after we first released it), so we’re happy that people talk about it. That usually means they’re happy with what we’ve made. If the people you show the app to are interested in what they see, and go on to buy it later, that’s a better-informed purchase than it might have been otherwise. If they decide they don't need it, that’s fine, too.

    I wouldn't object to someone sharing info from the app to help out another hiker. I'm glad you all are having the discussion in the first place, because it can be a bit of an ethical grey area.
    Thanks for the reply!

    As usual on this forum people like to either take things out of context, blow it out of proportion, not use common sense, or just post irrelevant gibberish comments.
    As well, others post useful reply's that are on topic and make sense.

    My intent was not to keep a dehydrated hiker from finding the secret water source that will save their life because they didn't purchase the app.

    My thought process was this: Apps like guthooks are a pay for access product. And it is a fact that without paying you do not get access to the up to date comments for each POI. So I have always wondered about the ethical decision to share information found in comments from a product that you have to pay to view those comments. And my ethical choice as of now is: no. It is not ethical. The app facilitates those comments and people had to pay to view them. SO if people are paying for the app to view those comments, or instead asking people online for information found in those comments that would in return keep them from having to pay then that is money out of the owners pocket and unethical.

    To those that have said: "The comments are not up to date or accurate". Yes they are. You may not have an accurate idea of what is considered "up to date" but thats your problem. If someone tells me that a water source was dry and I am there 2 days later during a drought...its still dry folks. Now if you want to wonder on down the mountain to a further down source and you find water? That doesn't meant the comment is inaccurate, it means you went above and beyond the user that left the simple comment. That doesn't make their comment inaccurate.

    To those that say in every thread involving anything remotely close to a smart phone that you do not have one: Absolutely no one cares that you do not have a smart phone and if you hadve just kept scrolling and not posted your redundant comment zero people would have said "oh man where is Jimbob with his "I dont have a smart phone comment?! man I miss hearing him say that!!" It is also very interesting to me that the people that always brag about no smart phone, are also the users with astronomical post counts....

    Ok the rant is over move along
    Last edited by Gambit McCrae; 10-08-2019 at 12:11.
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  8. #48
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit McCrae View Post
    ...
    To those that say in every thread involving anything remotely close to a smart phone that you do not have one: Absolutely no one cares that you do not have a smart phone and if you hadve just kept scrolling and not posted your redundant comment zero people would have said "oh man where is Jimbob with his "I dont have a smart phone comment?! man I miss hearing him say that!!" It is also very interesting to me that the people that always brag about no smart phone, are also the users with astronomical post counts....
    Thank you!!!!! Won't make any difference though... Anti-tech or anti-anything-modern farts will keep finding ways to "brag" about their ways. I actually find it amusing.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I agree with Tipi. I think.

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  11. #51
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    I buy paper guidebooks, and have no problem letting someone else read or borrow them. Someday, I might try guthooks or something, but I'm still fond of paper maps - their batteries last forever.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadeye View Post
    I buy paper guidebooks, and have no problem letting someone else read or borrow them. Someday, I might try guthooks or something, but I'm still fond of paper maps - their batteries last forever.
    I agree. Paper Maps---Dream Makers and Heart Breakers. Nothing quite like holding a 1:24,000 topo in your hand and studying each blue line and contour line and creases and folds n the landscape. In fact, a good topo can locate water for you if you study above where the blue lines stop.

    Here's good example from a friend who drew out his trip route---

    TOPO!map.JPG
    Look for "Jenkins Meadow". See "HAOE LEAD" and there's a nice CS on the ridge at the "O" in HAOE. Go a little west and down the ridge a hundred feet to the north and you'll find a spring water source---second black mark on the right. Voila, water. The lower blue line on the map helps to find these obscure sources.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Thank you!!!!! Won't make any difference though... Anti-tech or anti-anything-modern farts will keep finding ways to "brag" about their ways. I actually find it amusing.
    Yes, it is amusing in the sense that I don't believe it's completely an anti-tech or anti-anything-modern behavior. The same people who rail against cellphones, apps, and such usually have titanium stakes and pots, carbon fiber Lekis, aluminum and nylon and cuben/dyneema gear, etc. It's not a total anti-modern thing. It more seems to be their desire that hikers (and often others not just themselves) should break communication from the outside world and rely only on first person, physical presence interaction, and static info like guides and maps while on the trail. And it's not that these folks are completely anti-social, many are very social in different settings - like in person, or even in different tech type social media formats - like here on WB - as proven by their post counts. But they do seem to want to leave electronic interaction behind when hiking [their own hike]. Some extend that personal choice to want everyone else to do as they do as well [hike my hike, damn it].

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit McCrae View Post
    Thanks for the reply!

    As usual on this forum people like to either take things out of context, blow it out of proportion, not use common sense, or just post irrelevant gibberish comments.
    As well, others post useful reply's that are on topic and make sense.

    My intent was not to keep a dehydrated hiker from finding the secret water source that will save their life because they didn't purchase the app.

    My thought process was this: Apps like guthooks are a pay for access product. And it is a fact that without paying you do not get access to the up to date comments for each POI. So I have always wondered about the ethical decision to share information found in comments from a product that you have to pay to view those comments. And my ethical choice as of now is: no. It is not ethical. The app facilitates those comments and people had to pay to view them. SO if people are paying for the app to view those comments, or instead asking people online for information found in those comments that would in return keep them from having to pay then that is money out of the owners pocket and unethical.

    To those that have said: "The comments are not up to date or accurate". Yes they are. You may not have an accurate idea of what is considered "up to date" but thats your problem. If someone tells me that a water source was dry and I am there 2 days later during a drought...its still dry folks. Now if you want to wonder on down the mountain to a further down source and you find water? That doesn't meant the comment is inaccurate, it means you went above and beyond the user that left the simple comment. That doesn't make their comment inaccurate.

    To those that say in every thread involving anything remotely close to a smart phone that you do not have one: Absolutely no one cares that you do not have a smart phone and if you hadve just kept scrolling and not posted your redundant comment zero people would have said "oh man where is Jimbob with his "I dont have a smart phone comment?! man I miss hearing him say that!!" It is also very interesting to me that the people that always brag about no smart phone, are also the users with astronomical post counts....

    Ok the rant is over move along
    Have to disagree with a few of your comments. You say...

    “Apps like guthooks are a pay for access product. And it is a fact that without paying you do not get access to the up to date comments for each POI. So I have always wondered about the ethical decision to share information found in comments from a product that you have to pay to view those comments. And my ethical choice as of now is: no. It is not ethical. The app facilitates those comments and people had to pay to view them.”

    Guthooks does not have proprietary knowledge of the trail. The information you seek is common knowledge...knowledge that every hiker has who has recently been in the same area. Guthooks takes information and puts it in a format that makes the info readily available and that is what you are paying for, the convenience and ease of finding the information you need. You can still obtain this info by asking every hiker you meet who is walking in the opposite direction, or by calling local hostels, shuttlers, trail angels, etc.

    So don’t beat yourself up. The real travesty is to withhold information. If you were out hiking, would you refuse to tell someone walking in the opposite direction where to find the next water source? There’s no difference.

  15. #55

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    Gambit McCrae.... My apologies for piling on the "no smart phone" bandwagon. It wasn't my intent to strike a nerve and you're right, my personal habits aren't germane to the ethical question. In truth I'm grateful that my life has taken a course that allows me to "unplug" to the extent I have but I am aware that some of my comments come across as sanctimonious and meanwhile I'm slipping into the office at least nine times a day to log into this or that social media account. Mea culpa.
    The reason I responded to your original post initially is because the ethical question about how we share information with this new technology interests me. Any real discussion about ethics should examine opposing points of view but of course we each have to follow our own moral compass. I'm not interested in converting any ones thoughts and I'm not even sure where I will land on this after further examination. In the interest of continuing the conversation in a meaningful way I offer for your consideration a parallel.
    Public libraries go to some expense to line their shelves with new release books. When I check out a new release book from my local library that is on the New York Times Bestseller list and bring it home neither the author, the publisher or the printer receive any payment from me. Is this ethical? If the way libraries have worked for ages is ethical, how did we as a society arrive at that conclusion and if it is unethical how did we as a society allow it to become the norm for how we share information. To simplify the analogy, If I purchase a book, read it and loan it to a friend, is that ethical?
    Respectfully...Twisted
    "I love the unimproved works of God" Horace Kephart 1862-1931

  16. #56

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    Fair Use is a doctrine in copyright laws permitting limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder. Fair Use is a limitation to copyright that is designed to balance the interests of copyright holders with public interest. For example, subscribing to a weather service application and sharing information garnered from that service like tornado warnings would not be a copyright infringement. Making a copy of the forecast and sending it to others would be.

    Tempests often seem larger in the teapot.

  17. #57
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    I spend 10 hours a day in front of a computer. When I'm hiking, last thing I want to do is looking at a screen. I guess that makes me an anti-technology old fart, but I can live with it.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephanD View Post
    I spend 10 hours a day in front of a computer. When I'm hiking, last thing I want to do is looking at a screen. I guess that makes me an anti-technology old fart, but I can live with it.
    This is pretty much how I feel. Screen Time is bad enough at home---on a backpacking trip I want my screen time (i.e. my online time) to be ZERO. My digital camera offers screen time to review trip pics---fun to look thru on Day 15 of a 21 day trip---but no live streaming or FB chats for me. Staying current on the Interwad is useless for me in the backcountry. I call this smartphone drooling the Pixel Heroin. My opinion only of course---from another old fart.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    This is pretty much how I feel. Screen Time is bad enough at home---on a backpacking trip I want my screen time (i.e. my online time) to be ZERO. My digital camera offers screen time to review trip pics---fun to look thru on Day 15 of a 21 day trip---but no live streaming or FB chats for me. Staying current on the Interwad is useless for me in the backcountry. I call this smartphone drooling the Pixel Heroin. My opinion only of course---from another old fart.
    Yes, the experience of being totally unplugged for days is one that I think people should experience at least a few times. My daughter did when she was younger (ie: when I carted her places!), but quite possibly never will again (personal choice).
    However, I can carry my phone and still feel unplugged. As long as I'm airplane mode, using guthook, kindle app, camera, etc, are all positives for me. Paper map comes too for shorter sections just for fun and a backup.

  20. #60
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    This is pretty much how I feel. Screen Time is bad enough at home---on a backpacking trip I want my screen time (i.e. my online time) to be ZERO. My digital camera offers screen time to review trip pics---fun to look thru on Day 15 of a 21 day trip---but no live streaming or FB chats for me. Staying current on the Interwad is useless for me in the backcountry. I call this smartphone drooling the Pixel Heroin. My opinion only of course---from another old fart.
    YET, when I approached you last year, right about this time on the BMT (actually, November 5th to be exact), at Beech Gap (I think, next road crossing after Mud Gap), I tried to say hello and introduced myself in person, you didn't even acknowledge me, ignored me completely, you were BURIED in a device of some sort in your hand, I believe it was a phone, don't think it was a camera. I was only a few yards away. Pretty sure it was you, looked like you, and there was a huge pack sitting nearby, red I think.

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